Why Yahoo Is Soooo Over

[Sharon & Roy]

Here's a really insightful commentary about Yahoo ...

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/zd/20011116/tc/why_yahoo_is_soooo_over_1.html

Here's an excerpt ..

While Semel's instinct to diversify Yahoo's revenues away from a reliance on banner ads is commendable, these initial moves will likely be insufficient to stop the damage. At worst, they could even cause more harm. Yahoo has long tried to expand beyond being just a search engine -- people now keep their calendars on the site, read news feeds, check e-mail, and research stocks, among other things -- but Web searches are still the core reason that people log on.

Until now, the company has resisted selling search keywords to companies that want their links to come up first when certain terms are entered in the search box. Selling results gives off a whiff of hucksterism, of selling out objectivity for a quick buck. Now, however, sponsored matches are listed first at Yahoo, and they may or may not have anything to do with what you're looking for. Type in "Osama bin Laden (news - web sites)," for instance, and if a sponsored match comes up, it is a link to "Topps Enduring Freedom Cards." That's not exactly what most people have in mind. More useful results come up afterward, but who wants to scroll down through a bunch of marketing garbage before getting to what you want?

Yahoo's desire to make money seems likely to come at the expense of the user experience -- not a good strategy, especially when Yahoo is no longer the best search engine out there. That honor goes to Google (news - external web site). Of course, Yahoo links to Google searches, but when you can go directly to Google on your own, there's no need to dial up Yahoo. For more than a year, I haven't used the Yahoo search engine on a regular basis. By making its searches even more irrelevant, Yahoo is digging its own grave.

[ihelpyou]

Good article. The guy speaks the truth!

[markymark]

Interesting. What I liked particularly about this article was that although it came from ZDnet originally, S&R found it on Yahoo. Ah, sweet irony.

Although I agree that Yahoo seem to spend a ridiculous amount of time shooting themselves in the foot and backing losing horses (witness the Overture tie up), I do not believe that they will go down the tubes.

The advertising only led business approach was always doomed to failure given the infrastructure and personnel costs of an organisation like Yahoo. This was apparent from day one. Similarly, expanding the range of services offered by the company into free email, auctions, newsfeeds and anything else that was offered (better) elsewhere was a sure sign of desperation.

However it remains true that Yahoo, along with Amazon, are one of the true Internet brands that have recognition beyond the Web. This, I think, is the saving grace. People know Yahoo - they know it as somewhere to search from and they think they know it is a guarantee of a certain measure of quality.

Messing around with broadband or attempting to become a true content aggregator is, of course, another failure in the making. Do they have the resources or the (essentially free) access to information that, say, the BBC have. Of course not and that is who they will be competing with in this kind of field. Do they own an entire marketplace like BT ? No and they don't have the money to do so.

So why do I think they will ultimately succeed ? Because when it comes to finding information on the Web, Yahoo do have the infrastructure, brand and reputation to continue to deliver. They also still have the money.

[lots0cash]

Yup, Yahoo is in trouble, recent history shows us that SE’s that team up with goto are on their way out. As the search results become less and less relevant and more cluttered with PPC advertisements (I refuse to call them search results) the searchers go somewhere else. It will be interesting to see what happens with Yahoo.

[The Ney]

hmmm...

Maybe i am incompetent, or i have some strange kind of cookies on my machine, but i cannot get to these sponosored results.

The results page is same as ever for me... I have tried to search for "shopping" "flowers". "movies", "toys"...

I dont get it :confused:

[ihelpyou]

That is strange the Ney. The listings are at the top and also at the bottom of the results.

[The Ney]

AHA !!!

It appears that Yahoo is a member of new anti american camapaign. If you are coming from the USA recognized IP, you can see the sponsored results. If you are from the rest of the free world, you are sponsored-listings free !!!

Some input from the british friends would be welcome.

[ihelpyou]

sheesh. Yahoo is screwed up right now. I don't think they even know which side is up.

[The Ney]

BTW, since i have just posted in the Spam thread, isn't this spamming ?

Delivering US users one page, and others something else, in a sole purpose of sales ?

[Farhan]

Hey even i cant see the sposored listings. Its strange !!

[Lead]

I have got a few pop behind ads sitting in my tray went I close my window out the last few days. I didn't realize they are coming from YAHOO. Look at this classy pop behind Yahoo sent me at this link http://ads.x10.com/yahoo/martha.html

Kind of reminds me of a casino site.

Lead :hi:

[Advisor]

Oh those pop-ups have been there for awhile now.

And oops...I just clicked on some sponsored listings for search engine optimization there at Yahoo...silly me...

Jill

[Lead]

I tripped over my computer, and accidently fell on my mouse, and accidently clicked on the top bidder for Casino. Ouch, I bet that cost them 5 bucks.

Lead :hi:

[MsSearch]

Heil syndrome must be contagious....

[ihelpyou]

Hey kids..... glad to see all of the good work! Definitely keep it up. Remember to excersize those clickity fingers and keep them limber. Clickity, clickity, clock! :)

[The Ney]

Can you click for me ? I am not subscribed to this great new service :)

[Advisor]

I don't usually partake of such nonsense, but I couldn't resist clicking on the company that had been using my trademark names in their Google ads ;)

Jill

[ihelpyou]

Sure you are the Ney. You are the appointed ClickMeister of the forums. :D

[Kal]

Originally posted by The Ney
If you are coming from the USA recognized IP, you can see the sponsored results. If you are from the rest of the free world, you are sponsored-listings free !!!
I think you're right! I too cannot see the sponsored listings from here in Australia and friends in NZ claim the same.

This is really bad for non-American Overture clients - they are paying Overture big bucks to be seen by their target markets on Yahoo. What if their target markets are Yahoo.com users not in the U.S.? These markets WILL NOT see them!! :mad: Talk about misleading. Is there anything about this in the Overture terms and conditions?

[Lead]

There is something strange about Ney's potty dance, that it makes my want to go to the restroom.

Lead 8)

[The Ney]

Hehehe

It is just a lack of rest due to the expectation of the next Yahoo move. Next thing, they will give a rank boost to the sites that most of its visitors use Opera, as they sign a new deal with this internet gigant. :D

[ihelpyou]

hmmm, gee, seems that some people think that clicking on Overture listings is unethical? Gee whiz, I think the very fact that a site can "BUY" their way to the top of a Yahoo search is unethical. The fact is, Yahoo directory sites "PAID" for a listing thinking they could have a chance at being #1, #2, or #3 on their search term. Now that is impossible to accomplish. I find that unethical as well. What do you people think about that? That is, those of you who feel that when I occassionally click on an Overture "paid ad" that I am being unethical.

[Advisor]

Well those that paid $299 paid to get listed in the directory. They didn't pay to be number 1 or number 10 or number 320. There was never a guarantee or anything that they would get a certain rank. The overture listings aren't removing any of the $299 sites from the directory.

Besides, they can still pay to be in those other top listings, can't they? Is Yahoo still doing that? Where they rotate the sites that paid extra into the top area?

Jill

[ihelpyou]

Oh yes, I know that. That is why I said "have a chance" to be..

My biggest beef is the fact that the internet started along time ago with many small information sites that did not have any thoughts of making money on the internet. Year after year has went by with the big money pockets slowly taking over, leaving the little guy, and those who truly helped build the internet to what it is today, in the dust. The thought of having only to BUY your way to the top of Yahoo was not in the thought processes of anyone.

Overture has killed the internet dreams of many little guys. I despise that with a passion. I do not agree with the business model and a do not agree with the Monopoly that seems to be growing.

AND, I will occassionally keep on clicking.

[Advisor]

Well, that's definitely true. It's much tougher for the little guy these days. But that's life, and that's change. There are plenty of little guys who were able to make it big because they got in early enough. Hell, look at me!

I think that people have to realize that the Internet is not a get rich quick scheme though. (I know that you know this, Doug.) But there are so many people out there that somehow think they can slap up a site, get listed in yahoo and watch the orders come flying in. This was never the case, and certainly isn't now either. A listing in Yahoo would never make or break your business. Sure it could help some companies if they lucked out with a good one, but anyone who has to depend on that yahoo listing for their livelihood better find some other means!

Things change. Sometimes for the better, sometimes not. As some things disappear, others will come in to take their place. There will always be ways for the little guy to advertise. Besides, the Internet will be totally different in a few years. We probably have no idea. That's why we in this biz simply have to keep up with the changes and roll with them.

I'm not saying that we have to start doing PPC, but we do have to keep our eyes on it and see where the trends are going. For now, traditional SEO is still extremely important to most companies, small or large. But of course, other things must also be done along with it. E-mail newsletters seem to be coming into their own as a great marketing tool also. If Yahoo wants to self-destruct, I say let them! It's been in the works for years as they haven't been the searching place of choice for anyone who's been on the net for more than 6 months anyway.

Jill

[ihelpyou]

For instance Jill,... I would stack up my SEO skills and your skills ANYday with the likes of some of these big SEO companies who fling around their money. If we were only allowed to optimize a site purely with NO tricks or cloaking or anything of the sort, either one of us would win hands down. Just because we are little guys, does not by any means, mean we are not as good. Actually, quite the contrary. The only thing those big boys have is their pockets. Period. Most of the time they are still living in the dark ages and have No clue about how to optimize a site using ethical ways.

[Alan Perkins]

Yahoo was free when it, the Web and the market was much smaller.

Yahoo is no longer what it once was, in any respect. Forget about the good old days - that's just what they were. If free is what you want, look elsewhere.

What directory is free now and gives you comparable reach to that which Yahoo gave when it was free? How about DMOZ?

[Advisor]

Originally posted by ihelpyou
For instance Jill,... I would stack up my SEO skills and your skills ANYday with the likes of some of these big SEO companies who fling around their money. If we were only allowed to optimize a site purely with NO tricks or cloaking or anything of the sort, either one of us would win hands down. Just because we are little guys, does not by any means, mean we are not as good. Actually, quite the contrary. The only thing those big boys have is their pockets. Period. Most of the time they are still living in the dark ages and have No clue about how to optimize a site using ethical ways. I agree completely, Doug. But I don't get what that has to do with the whole Yahoo thing!

J

[MsSearch]

I am not a fan of PPC, nor have I ever used PPC on any of my sites. I certainly do not agree with Yahoo using Overture...it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

But time will tell....I feel that many companies using Overture (especially to get top ranks on Yahoo) will begin to steer away from PPC (particularly Overture) because of the increased hits (more $$ out of thier pocket) and little ROI....not only increased hits play apart in this but people bidding against their competitors will raise the bid/popular keyword. Eventually this PPC will bottom out and not many will be able to play the PPC game.

Just my thoughts.

[Advisor]

Ms, that sounds like a great scenario. Hope it plays out exactly like it. Wouldn't it be cool if their deal with Yahoo caused their ultimate demise?

Somehow I doubt it will happen though...but we can dream, can't we??? :green:

Jill

[lots0cash]

This is the way I see PPC. (But then I see weird things all the time)
Search Engine=drowning person - PPC offers drowning person a rope (does not tell them rope is tied to an anchor)

BTW Doug, Aren’t those so called “Featured” links there to be clicked on?

[Advisor]

does not tell them rope is tied to an anchor :balling: :balling: :balling:

Too funny.

J

[ihelpyou]

Jill, that was an analogy in regards to relevancy if you PAY to be on top with Overture. Being on top on a search term at Yahoo because you paid OVerture does not equate into a relevant result. Simply means who have deep pockets and cannot get to the top without paying Overture.

Who in their right mind would pay $5 a click to be on top of Yahoo for the search term of "search engine optimization"? That's right. Only those with deep pockets. No other reason. Does not mean that company is good or the best or anything else, just means they have money.

Goes for any term out there.

[Advisor]

Do you think people actually think that the companies that are sponsors in that top section of Yahoo are "the best"? I suppose some might think so. But those same people would be fooled by lots of things! I prefer the somewhat more knowledgable clients anyway!

J

[Advisor]

Get this...

In today's SE Update from Danny S. he has an article regarding the YahoOverture deal. Listen to this quote from someone at Yahoo:

"A lot of people have been asking us for these type of listings for a while," said
Scott Gatz, general manager of search and directory at Yahoo. "We thought it was the right moment, and so as not to waste any time, we partnered with Overture." I am sure that people were clogging their phone lines asking why they couldn't get PPC listings when they searched at Yahoo! What a hoot...:rolleyes:

BTW, Danny is all for the Yahoo/Overture deal, and sees it as the same thing as Google's ads at the top of their results.

A quote from Danny:
The Overture deal will solve this problem, [he was referring to not being able to change your listings at Yahoo] at least for those with budgets. For the first time, any site can now be guaranteed a top ranking in the search results page at Yahoo. And one last quote from Yahoo:"We really felt that putting Sponsored Matches out there was the right thing to answer many of those concerns [about ranking better]," Gatz said.

There you have it. Hope Danny doesn't mind me quoting from the paid subscription article. There is a lot more to the article also, and definitely worth a read. Here it is for those with paid subscriptions: http://searchenginewatch.com/subscribers/articles/0111-yahoo.html

Jill

[lots0cash]

Jill,
I remember the same kind of crap being said by NBCi (remember them?) when they “teamed up” with goto.

[MsSearch]

If Yahoo had 'so' many people inquiring about PPC listings, why not just use their sponsered sites (from the categories of their directory)? Those are PPC but are NOT getting the same exposure as the Overture listings...

[ihelpyou]

What a bunch of spin. I am disappointed even in Danny for saying such a thing. What is soooo wrong with standing up to a Yahoo or whoever? I speak my mind and am not afraid to do so. Danny also had it right in that he said "those with a budget". What he meant to say is .... those with deep pockets.

I cannot understand how this makes anything better. It makes things much worse.

[Advisor]

Originally posted by MsSearch
If Yahoo had 'so' many people inquiring about PPC listings, why not just use their sponsered sites (from the categories of their directory)? Those are PPC but are NOT getting the same exposure as the Overture listings... Because those didn't answer the question of being able to change your listing. With the Overture deal, you can have your listing say whatever you want. One of the main problems with regular Yahoo listings. Which I guess, is what the guy meant in his quote.Doug said:
What a bunch of spin. I am disappointed even in Danny for saying such a thing. What is soooo wrong with standing up to a Yahoo or whoever? Oh, no that's not spin. Danny has no problem standing up to any engine. He's just telling it like he sees it, and he does make some good points. Remember, if the engines can't make money, they won't be around much longer for any of us. Without the engines, we're all out of work!

I do think it would be better, smarter, nicer if Yahoo did something like Google and made the ads a bit more obvious, but they are labeling them as Sponsor links, so it's not like they're being deceptive or anything.

Jill

[markymark]

Good point, WebWhiz. We kinda need the search engines, including Yahoo, otherwise we are just left with the optimisation (isn't that something to do with making file sizes for graphics smaller ?).

My view is that there is no point moaning about how the web used to be, how much better things would be if everyone played by the rules and how kids were so much better behaved back in the good ol' days. This is all irrelevant and makes you sound out of touch. It is how search engines work now that is important.

So Yahoo have gone with Overture. They need to make some money, and this is a way to do it. They will ditch Overture and bring in their own PPC plan in a few months anyhow. We have to accept that this is their business decision and we can either like it or lump it.

[Proofreader]

Yep

I've just been through a "hair tearing out, maybe it's me that's senile" discussion about this on the Blake forum. Indeed, us down-unders can't see the sponsored listings at all!

Don't make no sense to me :confused:

[Proofreader]

Hi Doug

I have to speak out strongly against what you say is your practice of clicking on the Overture listings on Yahoo, presumably to hit the Overture listers.

Why are you punishing the folks who use Overture for a decision (and a bad one at that) made by Yahoo/Overture? I'm just an average housewife, partially disabled, trying to make a business with proofreading. I have some listings in Overture, because, frankly I don't have the smarts to get all of this other SE stuff right as fast as some of you folks.

The inference that using PPCs is somehowhow "cheating" is not correct - it's really the only way I have managed to perfect so far to get a few measly clicks to my site.

Doug, you give great advice on this forum, and you've certainly helped me before. I'm just suggesting that your actions are hurting the wrong people. People like me, just trying to make a living. Clicking on our links on Yahoo just sends US broke, not the people who made the decision.

Please rethink your tactics.

[Alan Perkins]

Well put, Nona. :hi:

PPC has its places, e.g.:

1) seasonal offers
2) usability testing - (could you actually convert the traffic if you got it "naturally")
3) like wot you said ...

The problems with PPC lie in the implementation, not the concept.

In Doug's mitigation (not defence), I think he only clicks on big, well known brand names.

[ihelpyou]

hey nona, yep, alan is correct. You have nothing to worry about. Only the big boys with big pockets get clicked. Believe me, don't think I spend lots of time with this. I might click on a link once a day if I think about it. Just trying to get the point across that the model is flawed and cannot last long. I simply do not want the big boys taking over the net and sending the little guys down the stream. We are the ones who built the net, and it seems people seem to forget that fact.

[Kal]

Hi Proofreader :hi:

Welcome to the forums from a fellow Aussie...