What if ...

[dina]

What if you have to design/optimize a new, parallel site for a customer that have a site alredy, made by somebody else, and you see it used funny kind of 'technique' ...
What would you do?
It looks that customers have no idea it was done that way. They did ask people that made it, and it looks they also host it and are the only one that have a pass ...

[MazY]

Firstly, I would highlight the dubious techniques used to the client and explain why they are dubious and the risks involved with the continued use thereof.

Secondly, I would point out from the start that I refuse to follow the same strategy, in their own best long-term interests.

[dina]

Thanks for your opinion MazY.

Client was informed. And I didn't use that kind of technique, of course.

But, the the timing was actually vice versa. I have got that job and finished the site. I just have to follow the results now. But, the client has ordered a new site afterwards, instead of the one he had before. It was made recently - well after mine. And he had no idea of techniques they've used.
Words like invisible, link farm, exchange lists, mailing lists ... all ring a bell, and my site refere to theirs (in fact to the first one) and their site unfortunately refere to mine. I can't brake the connection for it is still my client, the client can't access the site and there is no answer from people that made it.

I wonder what impact could all that have on my site?

[ihelpyou]

Yes, you do not want the search engines to find out otherwise they could penalize both or dump both. Be very careful and do what you can to change one of them.

[dina]

Well, that is the problem. What to change? Mine was completely different from their first site. It had to be that way for they had almost no material there. :) It is still rather different, except they chose to add free content and educacative page like I did. Mine are both doing OK on ODP, AOL & Netscape. Their doesn't show anywhere. It would be a shame to abandon mine because of theirs, don't you think?
And I could not change theirs and I am not supposed to brake my link to that site for they are my clients. So what else can I do?

[Alan Perkins]

Hi Dina

What a problem!

1) Remove your link to the client ASAP! With this link in place, you may be banned.
2) Explain to your client that they are using questionable methods that, although they might provide good traffic now, could in the long term get them banned. If search engines are a truly important source of traffic, why risk that?
3) Don't restore your link to the client until you are happy with their Web site.

[dina]

Well, the real problem is even worse. I've suggested it but didn't get approval from my firm. They are still waiting for some reply, hopping nothing would happen in the meantime.

[markymark]

If you have any kind of control over the code of your site, do it on your own. As Alan says, delete the link. Whether your company likes it or not, this could hurt your site. Explain to them the reasons why you did what you did after the event. But do it anyway.

[ihelpyou]

Simply point them to this thread and forum, and let them learn some things.

[dina]

To MarkyMark: Ok. But, could you employ me if I loose my job?:) My salary is rather low. :)

[ihelpyou]

hey dina, ... they are the ones with their heads in the sand. They should want to learn about all of this and how it can affect the web site.

[dina]

To ihelpyou: I know. But, unfortunately, looks like they don't.

[MazY]

Originally posted by dina
To MarkyMark: Ok. But, could you employ me if I loose my job?:) My salary is rather low. :)

The salary wouldn't be the problem, it's the commuting expenses! :D

[Alan Perkins]

Hi Dina

Let me get this straight. Your Site links to Client Site A which you developed and is not spammy. Client Site A links to Client Site B which you did not develop. Client Site B is very spammy, and links back to both Client Site A and Your Site. Is that right?

If so, your chances of being banned are still there, but are smaller than I first thought, and you have a "defence" if there is a problem.

Ideally, though, here is why you need to delete the link...

Google is a key driver of traffic right now and also very hot on spam.

Google frowns upon building artificial Pagerank using link farms.

How does Google know if you are an active participant in a link farm? Not if it points at you! Anybody could maliciously add you to a link farm. But if you point back at the link farm, then you indicate your willingness to be a part of it.

Moral: pointing at the "wrong" site could get you banned from Google. The same could be said of any other engine. Does that matter to your boss? Even if you are innocent, you may not be able to prove it and it could cause you a lot of aggravation. This is why you should be very careful who you link to or "trade links" with.

[dina]

To MazY:
I'll be satisfied with a a salary. Let me worry about commuting expenses. I already manage - my firm is in US. :)

[dina]

Hi Alan!
No, it's worse. :)
My site A and C (which I develop, have different content and are not spammy, but must link to client site as the premise) both link to each other and to Client Site B which I did not develop.
Client Site B is very spammy, and links back to both my sites (not suppose to, and usally don't for my sites are just part of campain for their site not vice versa). They've also adopted the same concept with free and educative content, which might add suspicion. Perhaps. Or not for it's common on internet?
How are my chances now?
Would using asp for a link help?

As for my boss, I think he doesn't believe we will be banned from Google. :)

[ihelpyou]

That is a huge risk. You have a link leading to you that is full of spam and full of everything Google hates about a site. Big risk. Ask your boss how many years he has studied the search engines while doing so full-time? :)

Unless we are simply being silly in here,... which we are sometimes, cause we like to have fun, in a case as serious as this that involves spam, we are dead serious and only speak the truth. You have in here some of the most knowledgeable people in this business. Your boss really should take heed and learn. It's only for his/her own good and can only benefit.

[Kal]

Yes Dina - you only have to look at this thread:
http://www.ihelpyouservices.com/forums/t1123/s.html
to see we are very serious about reporting spamdexing. Show your client the above link and also all the search engine guidelines relating to spamdexing such as:
http://www.google.com/webmasters/dos.html and
http://www.inktomi.com/products/search/content_policy.html

Hope it works out for you :(

[dina]

Well, ihelpyou, thanks for your answer. I 've expected something like tahat. :)
I've alredy sent SE guidelines - Google, Inktomi and Altavista,
but to my boss. About 10 days ago. You see, I don't have a possibility of direct communication with my client. The normal procedure is to contact my boss here who contacts my boss in US. I can also contact directly my boss in US but it is just for emergency. I tried both ways. And after that got the advice to wait.

I'll try again. This time with this forum and some other sources that clearly show (in my opinion positive) trend against spam. :)

[dina]

Kal, thank you for your advices and best wishes. :) I hope so too. You could see from my previous message that I already did some and will use other suggestions.
And yes, I am well aware of the fact that here are some of the most knowledgeable people in this business. :) I like to read threads on forums for a long time before joining. This one is my favourit as well as Spider Food Forums.
I must admit that I also enjoy Rank Write Roundtable letters very much. :)

Could somebody tell me would a link via ASP be any better than direct link to the client site (we already have some kind of click.asp for a client)? You see, I suspect I would have to wait more and would like to try anything in the meantime.

[Alan Perkins]

Whether the link is written by ASP or not makes no difference (unless you cloak the link - but then you are asking for more trouble). However, if you write the link in JavaScript, that could make a difference. e.g. something like

<SCRIPT LANGUAGE="JavaScript">
<!--
var link_pt1 = "http://www.";
var link_pt2 = "myclient";

document.write('<A HREF="' + link_pt1 + link_pt2 + '.com">My Client</A>');
-->
</SCRIPT>

Most spiders would have trouble following that...

[dina]

Thanks Alan. I'll try with java script. Could you tell me more about previously mentioned asp:

<%@ LANGUAGE="VBSCRIPT" %>
<%Response.Redirect("http://www.myclient.com")%>

as we obviously use them if a client asks for it?

[Alan Perkins]

I'm no ASP expert, but that ASP would simply redirect (using a HTTP 300 series redirect) from a page requested on your site, directly to your client's site, without showing the page on your site. It's equivalent to a link from your site to your client's site. And, contrary to popular belief, it is quite easily followed. The issue for spiders is not following the redirect, it is working out which URL to attribute the content to eventually.

I've seen Google follow redirects such as yours and attribute the content to the referring page (e.g. yours) rather than the referred page (e.g. your client's). They've fixed that bug now! But it just goes to show the danger - you could have been attributed directly with the spam on your client's site and, unless you were really on your toes, you would never have known about it.

[dina]

Well Alan, you are surely better than me! :) I know how it works but really don't know how a spider interpret it.
As there is a new policy in my firm to use that kind of click.asp instead just plain, common link I am just concerned if that could be considered some kind of cloaking. And it is really not made with that intention.
Of course, I'm talking about linking to just plain, normal sites, without spam this time. :)
It is really the same to me, I could use either kind of links. But, I would rather use the kind that would not arise some kind of suspicion. What would you recommend?

[Alan Perkins]

I can't "recommend" anything. If it was me, this is what I would do:

1) If I simply wanted to link to an external site, I would just link to it with a straight <A HREF="externalsite.com">
2) If I wanted to track visitors as they left my site, I would use a redirect through a visitor tracking script.

I would guess you are using a redirect for visitor tracking. That should be no problem. Simple visitor tracking is not "cloaking".

If you detected the visitor was a search engine spider, and did something different, that would be a problem ... but you're not doing that.

[markymark]

Dina,

Of all the suggestions so far, the pure JavaScript option is the best as search engines cannot follow pure JS.

It's nice to see that Maz - in his newly discovered role of IT consultant - has offered you a job with me ;) I pay well, when I have to. Stick around here and learn as much as you can about Search Engine Optimisation and you will learn a lot.

[edited cos I thought it was wise]

[dina]

Thanks Alan! Sorry if I'm a little late, but I was implementing java script to all my pages in all 3 of my sites. Not finished yet. :) I put it in external js file. I hope it's OK.
As you can guess, I've contacted my boss once again and the answer is still to wait. But, at least he agreed to read one more message I'll send him with all advices I've got here. Not that I hope too much.
As for ASP, we are not using it for visitor tracking either. So I can and I do use just <A HREF. It's just that somebody in the firm thought ASP needs less work to change afterwards ... which is completely different firm policy, surely not spammy. I was asking out of curiosity, for I would not like to use anything which can be suspicious.

[Alan Perkins]

All sounds good, dina. Best of luck.

[edited 'cos marky thought it was wise]

[markymark]

Alan, I didn't think of that, mate. I've edited the last post I made - don't want to cause grief.

[dina]

markymark,

I don't think MazY was really offering me a job with you, just couldn't resist to mention commuting expenses as bigger than my salary.
I wonder if he knows how right he is? :) I can just give you a hint that I know people doing my job in US get the same for about a week or less. But, it's rather good money in my country these days. :) It was not like that before, for I was teaching at university for much, much more once upon a time ...
But, hey, I really like this job and like to learn. Part of my work at the university was always to learn more, so I actually enjoy it. The real problem is not my salary. It's the firm's policy - I can't incorporate what I learn in my work. And maybe I am too thorough, for I have to use my free time to finish a site, as I can rarely finish it in 15 - 20 hours fixed by firm's policy (for about 17 - 20 pages.) But I will try to 'stick around here and learn' markymark, even if you never offer me a job. :) Cause I enjoy it.
You see, I'm also serious. Sometimes. :)

[MazY]

Originally posted by markymark
Dina,

It's nice to see that Maz - in his newly discovered role of IT consultant - has offered you a job with me ;) I pay well, when I have to. [edited cos I thought it was wise]

LOL No you don't! Three goats and a shiny pebble you owe me for that last consultancy service! :D