New Article By Danny

[ihelpyou]

Here is the link:

http://www.clickz.com/search/opt/article.php/929561

What do you all think? I thought about this all morning and did send in two different emails. Here is both combined about my thoughts on this:
=======

You could have something there, but I would put caution to the wind. Like you said, many outside our industry are finally getting it..... SEO. It has taken awhile but people are truly typing in "search engine optimization" and are buying the services involved with it. I have had many clients who said they found me on that term and no nothing about what we do.

The word "marketing" also has bad conoctations among many people. I do agree that it would encompass a wider range of services but I personally would not want to be grouped in with all the so-called "marketeers" that are on the net. Many are scammers and email spammers and this might confuse those outside of our industry even more.

Just need to be careful with this. That is my 2 cents.

Thinking about this further and I strongly disagree with that term. Say this succeeded in being the term that is used to find help with the search engines. You realize how many thousands of sites are out there that are truly marketing type sites with email, banner advertising, etc, and also do what they call SEO on the side. These sites offer "submission to a gazillion search engines" for 9.95. It is these types of sites that would be prominent in any search results if the term "search engine marketing" would become widely used and recognized.

It is hard enough explaining to potential clients about why your price is higher than these types of "marketeers" and if they are prominent in search results as well, it would be a nitemare scene. All of these scams would be grouped together along with the TRUE SEO sites. Would not be good at all.

I do not personally have the word "marketing" on my site anywhere and would never have it on the site. There are thousands of sites that come online daily to push their so-called marketing and so-called SEO. We know they are scams. Please do not push that word "marketing" as it is waaaay too sweeping and takes in ALL the "marketing" sites on the net.

All true SEO's would be lost in the shuffle.
============

Those are my thoughts. Too sweeping a term and would put us in with all the "marketeers" on the net.

[Alan Perkins]

I thought the telling number was 121 votes TOTAL cast

Last I heard (some time ago...) I-Search had 13500 subscribers. A less than 1% response rate means "who cares?" is the winner.

My personal favourite was "search engine studs", which only received 46 fewer votes than "search engine marketing"! Out of 13500 possible votes cast, that's pretty close!

Survey results are here (http://list.adventive.com/SCRIPTS/WA.EXE?A2=ind0109&L=i-search&D=1&T=0&H=1&O=D&F=&S=&P=750)

[ihelpyou]

Wow. Hardly any votes at all. Any term that has the word "marketing" in it has got to be OUT. Period. For all the reasons I stated above. Waaaaaay to sweeping.

The rest of terms in there are all legitimate, IMO.

We have to find a way to get rid of the so-called sites that offer "gazillions" of submissions for a couple of bucks. Using the term "marketing" would not be good at all.






I have to say this is troubling to me as Danny is respected far and wide. This would be a bad term for what a bunch of us truly do. There would be more confusion than there is now.

Think about it, the results now are very decent, especially on Google for people finding a firm to help them with the engines. If you put all the marketing sites into the top ten as well, it would be a nitemare.

Please do not start using that word Danny. Because you may start using it, it truly could become the norm. Please?

[Blue]

I tend to think of SEO's and marketers as two completely different animals (no offence, peoples).

If I am looking for a marketing specialist, I am looking for someone whom has specific knowledge on selling my product or services: demographics, advertising, and such.

But, even with the best marketing campaign in place on my site, how can I sell my stuff if I'm buried in the sludge of the SE's and Directories?

Hence, I go looking for that highly specialized person to optimize my site: the venerable SEO (hear the trumpets ringing? tat-da-da-DA).

I tend to think that you should hire specific people with specific knowledge about their own speciality. Sure, a handyman may be a great fix-it-all, but I'm not gonna hire 'em to remodel my bathroom. And I'm not going to hire a marketer to optimize my site.

However, with that all said, I could possibly envision a person, or more likely a firm, that could have both types of specialists in-house, thereby combining the two previously different aspects.

But for now I agree with Doug. From a non-SEO's perspective, don't mess with the terms in place as that will confuse the situation for all us consumers.

[ihelpyou]

Very good points Blue.

Look at the results for that term right now:

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=search+engine+marketing

A Spammer at number one. Many "marketing" sites are in the top 50 that have nothing to do with a specialty type firm.

Actually, it is hard to find a firm in that list that does nothing but SEO.

[Hope]

Originally posted by Alan Perkins
My personal favourite was "search engine studs

Sorry Alan, that just isn't going to work for a few of us in the industry. For some reason I just look like a "stud". I think Kal and Jill would have a problem with this too. I am sure there are lots more people who just fit the "stud" profile very well. ;)

[Alan Perkins]

I was thinking Doug might rise to the challenge...

[ihelpyou]

Oh yes, I am quite the "stud". :D

[Alan Perkins]

Hope

What was the name of that other Joan Collins film? Maybe that'll do for the gals...

Doug, I think you can see how seriously we are taking this.

[Kal]

[Kal climbs out on a very narrow limb] I'm sorry people but I am going to agree with Danny on this one.

Now wipe those shocked looks off your faces and bear with me. In the article when Danny says:

[I like the term because I feel it encompasses many things: optimizing for crawlers, managing paid listings, submitting to directories -- you name it. All of these activities are marketing on search engines.]

I have to agree. Having completed my degree in marketing and having held a wide variety of marketing roles in the technology field before starting my own firm, I totally agree that optimizing sites for search engines encompasses a great deal of marketing theory and practice.

For starters, I help clients to market their sites to the search engines as well as vice versa. I research the client's target market to come up with relevant keywords. I help clients write copy for their site that markets their products and services to target audiences. Budget for my services usually comes out of a client's marketing budget. Moreover, you could say my company vision is to help clients market themselves more effectively on the Internet. This is my standard response when someone asks me what I do nowadays. This is true, even though 98% of the work I do involves what has traditionally been known as Search Engine Optimization. I think this term is still lost on many clients.

When I was first employed by a global web design firm a few years back, my search engine expertise was an unknown quantity and they asked me where I would best fit into the organisation. Their Marketing Services Division was the natural choice because they were responsible for the implementation of successful marketing strategies for client web sites to reach target audiences. Search engines were an important step in each strategy so the fit was perfect (until their designers thought they knew better :mad: but that's another story). If I dared use the word "optimization" in a client meeting, their eyes would glaze over, but "marketing" they understood.

My long-winded point is that I don't see anything wrong with this term and would accept it with open arms. Awaiting your eager flames. :D [edited for mindless repetition]

[ihelpyou]

Kal I am shocked.

The word "marketing" itself is ALL encompassing. Do you really want all sites associated with "internet marketing" to be fighting over the search engine results? That is what would happen if that term become the norm. We would have EVERY marketing site on the net competing with us. Everyone. Do you want that?

Look at the sites in the current Google results on that term. You see marketing firms and MANY of them. ... Aesop, etc, etc, etc, etc, and many spammers... the top 2 come to mind.

Marketing is waaay too general for a specialty service. Blue has it very right. Neither myself nor many others would want to be associated with all the "submission" companies, all the email to millions companies, all the Place your banner ad to gazillion site companies, etc.

Do you want to be?

I do see your point, but also know that point would be lost in the shuffle with ALL the marketing firms on the net.

[ihelpyou]

Besides, what you are doing is also Optimizing, whether it be optimizing a client's PPC listings or keywords, optimizing for a Yahoo submission, ODP, or Looksmart submission, optimizing for Inktomi, AltaVista, or Google........ you are optimizing. I am a search engine optimization company. Period. I am Not an "internet marketeer".

[Kal]

Originally posted by ihelpyou
Kal I am shocked.


Did I really shock you Doug? Guess I'm a shocking type of girl :thebomb:

Originally posted by ihelpyou
Marketing is waaay too general for a specialty service.

But the term Danny suggests is not "Marketing", it is "Search Engine Marketing". Is that the term your Google results reflect? Even if it is, I still think it is an accurate reflection of what I do. Maybe it would be more difficult to get good rankings for this phrase, but that's not the point Danny's trying to make. I merely agree that it is an accurate term for our services, in my opinion.

I personally think my target audience would relate to this term better than they do to SEO. Whether or not the industry should take it up as a whole is a different kettle of fish. But I personally have no problem with it. I'd be very interested in hearing Jill and Heather's views on this one!!

[Kal]

I see the Google results were for "Search Engine Marketing". But the fact that four out of the top five ranked companies are related to SEO should underscore the relevancy of this term for our industry!!

Sure there are some spammers in the listings (I see our Aussie friends are back :mad: ) but you can't tell me that there are less spammers for the term "Search Engine Optimization".

[Mel]

Hi all

A bit of food for thought.

If you want to coin a new name for this arcane business you may want to consider what searchers are looking for on the search engines.

WordTracker says:
search engine optimization 981
search engine placement 499
search engine positioning 273
web site marketing 231
search engine optimisation 201
search engine promotion 93
search engine marketing 52

Even given the bias of SEOs using the SEO term in thier searches, I think that either Search Engine Optimization or Search Engine Placement are going to be hard to unseat.

[Alan Perkins]

OK, we are taking it seriously, are we?

1) Is optimization the right word?

Many of the reasons Danny gives for "search engine optimization" being a bad term also apply to "search engine marketing" e.g. Danny asks "Are you really optimizing for these other venues?" He says you "certainly are doing work that can influence how sites are listed". What is optimizing, if it isn't that?

2) The I-Search survey results as a justification

These are statistically insignificant. SEO and SEM differed by three votes. And over 99% of subscribers did not vote. According to the British Prime Minister, a low turnout is because the voters are "satisfied with the way things are"...

3) Confusion

The confusion caused will be significant in the short to medium term. All those directory entries...

-------------------------------------------------------------

However, I think there's a place for both SEO and SEM.

The unique part of SEO over other forms of marketing is the focus on rankings. I would say an emphasis on rankings defines an SEO. An SEO optimizes for rankings. If rankings are the yardstick by which you measure yourself, optimization is the appropriate term to describe your activities.

If you choose to measure success by traffic, then marketing may be a more appropriate term. Traffic is what most forms of marketing are aiming at. Search engines are another channel to market ... a rather unique channel, IMO.

In other words, SEO and SEM are two different things. And there are more different things involved in driving traffic from search engines, too. Before optimization comes architecture and design. After marketing comes ROI...

[ihelpyou]

Maybe it would be more difficult to get good rankings for this phrase, but that's not the point Danny's trying to make.
and that is not the point I made above either.
It is hard enough explaining to potential clients about why your price is higher than these types of "marketeers" and if they are prominent in search results as well, it would be a nitemare scene. All of these scams would be grouped together along with the TRUE SEO sites. Would not be good at all.
That is one of my points. This would confuse the searcher a whole bunch. How is a user suppose to find a quality SEO when he/she has to wade thru a bunch of scams in the results? Even get taken by some of these people first? Firms like Jill, Kal, Mel, Doug, etc would be completely buried. Either that or we would have to stick the word "marketing" on our pages, AND that is NOT very specific to what we do. Now is it? Me thinks not. I want a user to find what I have to offer. I want my site to reflect what I have to offer. Using "marketing" would Not accomplish that. Too general.

[MazY]

Me, I'm with Kal. I love a challenge anyway....

Clamber to the top of the Marketing rankings? Bring it on.... :D

As you may have noticed, my sig changed before this article hit the forums anyway. Not because of my love for a challenge but rather because rankings are not as important to me as not having my business represented poorly or to a lesser degree than what I feel it provides.

Search engine optimisation has always, to me, been an innacurate and inefficent term anyway. I have never touched a search engine, let alone optimised one. I have, however, helped people to market their web site so that it makes the best offerings to the company's customers.

Anything that includes the word marketing, I feel, is a much better and more importantly, more accurate representation of the field of work in which many of us reside.

That's my pound sterling worth. Back to the grindstone...

[Mel]

IMO the problem with associating SEO firms with "marketing" is not how we perceive oursleves but how our potential customers perceive us.

Marketing is in my mind (and I suspect in many other peoples too) associated with 10,000,000 letter spam email campaigns, Multi-level marketing scams, Free for all links pages, Popup windows, things like Ezula and Top text, and a host of other "marketing" techniques that I do not want to be associated with in any fashion.

As Mazy points out, the end object of a good SEO is perhaps better defined by the term marketing, since he will want to achieve not only rankings for his clients but good convertbile traffic. BUT the term marketing is so tainted by the current offerings of "internet marketing" firms, that I for one would not want to be associated with that term.

While the terms "search engine placement" and "search engine positioning" are also statistically significant, the term "Search engine optimization" need not refer soley to rankings - while we optimize the pages for better rankings we do so in the expectation that this will bring better traffic to the site.

[Advisor]

I'd be very interested in hearing Jill and Heather's views on this one!! Ask and ye shall receive!

It looks like you guys have already made all the relevant points in this discussion, so there's not a whole lot more for me to add. I'll just give my opinion, which is similar to much of what others have said here.

Personally, I'm happy with the term search engine optimization, as it's finally come into its own and is recognized for what it is. Therefore, I'll be continuing to use it. The idea of suddenly trying to change what we call ourselves seemed ridiculous to me when I first answered the survey in I-Search (I chose search engine optimization, of course! Although, I kinda do like search engine stud and its feminine counterpart search engine s1ut!)

However, I have no problem whatsoever with the term search engine marketing. I am amused by some of your negative feelings about the word "marketing" in general. I've never thought of the word marketing in such a negative way before. Some of you seem to feel that marketing is some how a bad thing, and I just don't get that. Marketing doesn't equal spam. Marketing isn't unethical. Just because some spammers use the term marketing for what they do doesn't mean that marketing is something bad. Geez...marketing is taught at all the major University's and is a very well respected field to go into. And as someone else said here (Kal I think), most of the time SEO work comes out of the marketing budget. Which is a GOOD thing because marketing budgets are usually huge. In fact, we probably do need to stress that what we do should come out of the marketing budget (as opposed to IT) because we could get more money that way! I've often wondered why companies will spend a $100k for print ads, and whatnot, but then only be willing to spend a few hundred for SEO. It's because they don't believe we're really doing marketing.

Now it's true that not all SEO's do marketing. Some, like Doug, simply do their SEO, get the high rankings, and their done. Others do a whole hell of a lot of marketing. My particular role in SEO is not much marketing, but that's what I use Heather for. Her role is very much marketing. Very much. In order to write a Web site that not only gets high rankings, but keeps the audience engaged, interested and wanting to buy, she has to use every marketing technique in the book. She needs to first learn about the company's target market. Decide how to get into their heads, then write the page accordingly. This is marketing, no matter how you slice it. I think companies that focus on conversion and selling along with their traditional SEO and high rankings are most definitely doing search engine marketing. That term describes what they do very nicely. That doesn't mean we should get rid of the term search engine optimization. As Alan said, both of these terms have their place, and they're not mutually exclusive. I'll use (and am using) the term search engine marketing when appropriate, and I'll use the term search engine optimization when it's appropriate. I see them as slightly different things...with search engine optimization being one part of search engine marketing.

That's my take, for what it's worth!

Jill

[ihelpyou]

with search engine optimization being one part of search engine marketing
Exactly, and that is my point. To group all of us together with the general term of marketing would delute the results. If one is searching for a marketing firm that also does optimization, well then, internet marketing might be good. If one aleady has a marketing firm in place but that firm does not know about the search engines, then he must find a specialist, hence, he will use "optimization".

That is my only point, that marketing is too broad a term to pin down what a searcher is actually looking for.

Besides, I really cannot see the PPC end of it as a long lasting thing. I do think it will eventually go the way of banner ads. One reason I think this is the fact that Overture has most the market in this and is now cracking down on terms submitted. Also, the fact that tradionally, the searcher gradually becomes knowledgeable to the fact that something is thrown in front of them as an ad. They tend to shy away from this over time.

Believe me, i understand the reasons why search engine marketing is being discussed. It's just that I still think that some reasons to use it are the exact same reasons we are using search engine optimization right now. We optimize before submitting to Looksmart. We optimize before Yahoo and DMOZ. We are always optimizing something. Some of us optimize for PPC search terms as well.

Those that do all the above, do not necessarily do email marketing, banner advertising, or direct postal mailings with their services. Using the general word of Marketing would also include all the rest of internet marketing as a whole. Not specific enough.

[Mel]

Hi Jill - perhaps a time for a funny (sad?) marketing story.

When a young lad in college I was engaged to the daughter of the Vice President of one of the VERY big Madison Avenue advertising firms.

When it came time for the formal introduction to the parents, I was greeted with smiles and assurances that I could do very well in advertising as I now knew the right person, and if there was anything I ever wanted to know about the busines all I had to do was ask. I probably should have kept my mouth shut since the first question that popped into my mind was the one I immediately asked -

"Do you guys really believe all that bulls**t you put out?"

End of romance as the young lady in question was immediately transferred to a school in Switzerland.

I have never cared much for the terms advertising or marketing since then

[Advisor]

Those that do all the above, do not necessarily do email marketing, banner advertising, or direct postal mailings with their services. Using the general word of Marketing would also include all the rest of internet marketing as a whole. Not specific enough.Yes, Doug. This is why Danny is saying "search engine marketing" not internet marketing. Search engine marketing is very specific. It means marketing for the search engines. Doesn't mean email marketing, etc. I don't see why this is confusing!

Jill

[ihelpyou]

I guess you do not see my point yet. :)

If you include the word "marketing" in there, do you realize how many sites out there have that word on their front page very prominently? ALL the marketing firms have it on the front page. Don't you see that because of that, those firms would also show up in the results, whether or not they know anything about the search engines?

You have to know that. This is my only point.

[Advisor]

Originally posted by ihelpyou
I guess you do not see my point yet. :)

If you include the word "marketing" in there, do you realize how many sites out there have that word on their front page very prominently? ALL the marketing firms have it on the front page. Don't you see that because of that, those firms would also show up in the results, whether or not they know anything about the search engines?

You have to know that. This is my only point. I get your point, but I guess my answer to it would be, "so what"? I don't see why it's a big deal!

Jill

[ihelpyou]

It would be a big deal to the search engine user who is searching for a specialist and clicks on a firm who actually specializes in design, hosting, email ads, banner, etc, and only does "optimization" on the side.

Blue had it right in his post way above.

[Advisor]

Originally posted by ihelpyou
It would be a big deal to the search engine user who is searching for a specialist and clicks on a firm who actually specializes in design, hosting, email ads, banner, etc, and only does "optimization" on the side.You really think those kinds of sites could optimize well enough to get ranked high for "search engine marketing" once real SEO's start optimizing for it? Nope, I don't think so. Very shortly you'll start seeing most of the results will be for SEO company's not Internet Marketing companies. The reason you don't see it yet is because the term is new and no one has bothered to optimize for it. When Danny first wrote that article about a month or so ago, we started to see the term get used in a few places. Now with the article out for the general public on ClickZ you can be sure that you're going to see it pop up everyone on many SEO sites.

You don't have to worry about those Internet Marketing sites ranking high for it. They will be out of the results within the next few months. Mark my words!

Jill

[Alan Perkins]

It would be a big deal to the search engine user who is searching for a specialist and clicks on a firm who actually specializes in design, hosting, email ads, banner, etc, and only does "optimization" on the side.

I think that's the point, Doug. If someone wants search engine marketing, they don't necessarily want search engine optimization. And vice versa.

I maintain the problem is that Danny is talking about replacing one term with another, when there is now (and has been for a long time) room for both terms.

[ihelpyou]

I simply do not see the need to change something that users are finally starting to get.

This topic is closed as far as I am concerned. We are going in circles now. I do not like the term and will stand by my opinion, for all the reasons I have stated.

I have nothing further to add. :)
I maintain the problem is that Danny is talking about replacing one term with another,
Thank you Alan.

[Alan Perkins]

Nice bit of editing, nimble fingers!

[Advisor]

I simply do not see the need to change something that users are finally starting to get. I totally agree with you there!

Jill

[Advisor]

Well, Dougie...looks like your response to Danny got printed...

http://searchenginewatch.com/sereport/01/12-sem.html

I think that's the free SEW site, right? Hopefully you can all read it!

Jill

[ihelpyou]

His response to the feedback does not seem to make sense.
For those who disagreed, one common theme was that "search engine marketing" seemed too narrow a term.
My contention is that using that term is waaaay to general and sweeping,... not too narrow. It is not nearly narrow enough.

[Advisor]

That's true, for what you wrote, Doug. But read the other ones. They seem to be saying the opposite of you! (Those that are disagreeing.)

Jill

[ihelpyou]

Yes and a couple of them said they worked for a "marketing firm". These are the types that do SEO on the side and have no clue.

[Advisor]

Originally posted by ihelpyou
Yes and a couple of them said they worked for a "marketing firm". These are the types that do SEO on the side and have no clue. But they're also the type that would be prime candidates to call themselves search engine marketers.

I still say there's plenty of room for both terms. Doug, you're definitely not a search engine marketer, you're a search engine optimization specialist. But again, that doesn't mean that others who do other stuff shouldn't be called the SEM word if that better describes their particular job functions.

I have to say that search engine marketing does seem to describe a bit more of what Rank Write talks about than search engine optimization does. I would say that we "discuss search engine optimization and other search engine marketing issues." That to me is an accurate way of using the terms.

Jill

[Alan Perkins]

This was a vote in favour of SEM:???

I agree that Search Engine Marketing is a broader based terminology, but I really like the abbreviation of SEO rather than SEM, which when said rapidly has a sexual connotation.

Again, sample size is a problem. Danny has thousands of readers but ...

Over 30 people sent emails to me on the subject, with the vast majority of them in favor of the change

Here are some quotes from the positive and negative:


Search Engine Marketing is a broader based terminologyI feel that search engine marketing ... encompasses everything an SEO does and moreSearch Engine Marketing does makes more sense ...if we ... intend on broadening our perceived suite of services
We optimize sites for search engine access. Yes, we do marketing and submission for sites as well, but all that is included...
SEO is really just one component of Web Site MarketingI believe SEO is one component of Search Engine Marketing...
Search Engine Optimization will be part of your PROMOTION mix. A part of, not to be confused with, your marketing strategy...

Seems to back it up, SEO is part of SEM. So why replace one with another. Both exist and will continue to do so.

[ihelpyou]

I agree with that completely. More than enough room for both terms. The big problem is, is Danny pushing it. He does have some sway in the industry and I fear that the "marketing" term will catch steam.

[Advisor]

Originally posted by ihelpyou
I agree with that completely. More than enough room for both terms. The big problem is, is Danny pushing it. He does have some sway in the industry and I fear that the "marketing" term will catch steam. It will gain steam, and it will do well. But again, it won't mean that SEO will be gone. They will live happily together, and be used where they fit. Same for all the other stupid terms that have come about like SEP. To me, that's a good one for PPCs. All of the terms co-exist without it being a problem for people who concentrate mostly on SEO. At least that's how I see it!

Jill

[Kal]

Very interesting results! Nice to see the "for" and "against" themes ran similar to our own in this thread. I too think there is room for both terms, but will continue to use SEM when explaining my SEO services to clients.

BTW, I wonder how much the price for "search engine marketing" went up on Overture in the past week? :rolleyes: