Promotion Software

[Blue]

I would like to ask everybody to vote on, and then post their opinions on the Promotion Software packages that are available out there (such as TopDog and WebPosition). Please specify what you think the pro's and con's are to each package.

This is, I believe, a topic that might interest most of us here.

[ihelpyou]

By promotion software, I take it you mean software to automate your submissions or help you build pages.

I do not use Topdog for this, but use TD for reporting purposes only.

The best way to submit your pages is always by hand. Never automatically.

[Blue]

By promotion software, I take it you mean software to automate your submissions or help you build pages.

Yes, this is essentially what I was asking about.

I do not use Topdog for this, but use TD for reporting purposes only.

And, this is the kind of reply I was looking for (though you forgot to vote).

I actually had the feeling that you would say something to this extent, from the few (or was it many?) other posts elsewhere I have seen you make on this topic. :)

Keep 'em coming...

~~~~
edit ~~

And after you have submitted by hand (to all the majors, I presume), should one then consider submitting to any of the minors? And for what specific reasons?
~~~~

[ihelpyou]

I voted! You did not vote. :happy:

[ihelpyou]

My answer to the minors is No.

Most of the minors get their results from the databases of the majors so there is really no point in submitting to them.

And yes, I hand submit to all the majors.

[JuniorHarris]

Manual submissions, major engines only need apply!~ :umbre:

[Perfection]

The closest thing to promotion software that I use is my favorite places folder with the list of Add Url pages for each search engine.

[ihelpyou]

I am sure in that "favorite places" folder, this forum is in it with all the add Url links..... right?? ;)

[Blue]

I voted ~ LOL :D

[Perfection]

Yup, this forum has been "favoritely placed" since I first found it.

[ihelpyou]

lol.... :scattered

[Mel]

Hi Blue:
I use Web Position and would like to comment as follows:

1. Do not use the page generator ever ever ever......

2. The position reporter is great and the ability to automate the reports to off peak hours is also nice

3. Page critic is just too general and you have to understand how to use it or its useless. For instance if you are optimizing for MSN it does say that its important to build link popularity, but it does not tell you that if you have enough link popularity you can violate all the page critic rules and still rank #1. Also you have pay to keep it up to date.

4. The submitter is nice if you have lots of pages to submit as you can program it to run automatically and it will keep you within daily submission limits for each engine. NO hlep with AV though.

5. Traffic reporter is also nice but you have to pay extra for it

[ihelpyou]

Good review Mel.

[Blue]

Hi Mel,

Yes....These are the kinds of points to share for the benefit of all in these forums.

Excellent review. Thanks,

[Mel]

HI guys!
Thanks for the kind words.

Since you have given me so much encouragement let me add a couple of other crumbs on the water -

Word Tracker service is so far, to me, the very best way to research keywords a topic I consider basic to SEO. I would suggest that anyone starting a website, at least take advantage of the free 30 day trial.

Another very nice piece of position reporting software is AgentWebRanking, especially if you are interested in results from European engines The best news is that its FREE.

[ihelpyou]

Yep, I would'nt leave home without my wordtracker. Buy yearly subsciptions to it and could not possible run my business without it.

THe GoTo tool just does not give the full picture and besides, wordtracker gives you the GOTO thing in it also if you want to check.

Not familer with AWR, but use Topdog for reporting. It also tracks all country specific engines.

[JuniorHarris]

Very nice update Mel, thanks!~ Some very nice added information! :)

[Blue]

I would like to add some comments on AgentWebRanking.

First, as Mel said, it is FREEware, which will most definitely put it within the budget of anyone looking for "website ranking software".

And here's a description of the software from their site:

AgentWebRanking Freeware is designed for Webmasters, Webmarketers and Search Engines Consultants. It provides information on how their (or their clients') websites compare with competitors and helps to achieve higher search engine ranking. AgentWebRanking Freeware is a 5 out 5 stars Zdnet Choice.

Marketing experts agree that your web site must be listed within the top 20 listings (or the first two pages) of a search engine in order to pull a substantial amount of traffic. The question is how do you design your web site so that it moves up to or near top spot and how to monitor your search engine placement? Simply submitting your web site to hundreds of search engines will not generate any kind of traffic if its position is dead last.


To be successful in search engine submissions, you must adopt an effective plan or system of search engine manipulation. You will want to be able to analyze your current search engine position and develop a plan of improving your search engine rank. Here's where AgentWebRanking comes in.



Software description:

Tired of not knowing where your site ranks on search engines? AgentWebRanking checks the visibility of your website.

The program allows you to specify the numbers of pages deep into the search engines you wish to check, the keywords you want checked against your site, and the URLs you want checked. Results are clearly shown in a built-in browser window and include links to see the actual listing at each search engine. Results can be saved.

The browser window also provides several links to online services you can use to improve the visibility of your site. These links include manual submission of your Website to popular search engines, an HTML toolkit, keyword analysis, Browser Compatibility, Link Validation, Spelling, Search Engine Readiness and load time.

Program works with American, German, French, Italian, Dutch, English search engines, and the list is growing.

AgentWebRanking supports the following internet search engines, 41 in all, and the list keeps growing!

International Search engines: Altavista - AllTheWeb (Fast) - Aol - Dmoz - Excite - Google - Goto - Hotbot - Looksmart - Lycos - Magellan - MSN - Northern Light - Nbci (Snap) - Webcrawler - Yahoo

Germany: Altavista, Dmoz, Excite, Google, Fireball

France: Altavista, Excite, Google, Lycos, MSN, Nomade, Voila, Yahoo

UK: Altavista, Excite, Yahoo, MSN, Lycos, Google

Netherlands: Altavista, Dmoz, Excite, Google

Italy: Excite, Google

And the link to their site is: http://www.agentwebranking.com/

Check it out (BTW: I'm not affiliated with this company in any way).

[Mel]

Hi Blue:

Here's another couple of freeware packages for the self help tool kit:

Mouse Click application - Webmaster ToolChest
This handy dandy free software enables you to left click while browsing a page and according to the website:

The first series of mouse click application is designed for webmasters, we call it Webmaster Toolchest, it consists of Search Engines Position Reporter, Link Popularity, Keyword Density Analyzer, Search Engines Registration and Search Engine Optimizer

These are not industrial strength applications, but what the heck they are free and good for the occasional check.

One more is the "poor mans Word Tracker" GoodKeywords which is also a free download. Not in the same class as Wordtracker, but as an addition to the free toolchest it beats guessing.

[ihelpyou]

Fixed your signature Mel. :)

[Blue]

For all these excellent links.

And here are the links:

Mouse Click Applications - Webmaster Toolchest (http://www.mouseclickapplication.com/). This is a VERY small FREE download.

AND

GoodKeywords (http://www.goodkeywords.com) .

[tgorski]

I whole heartedly agree that WordTracker is a top-notch tool for discovering the search terms people use, and that TopDog is great for reporting how particular pages rank for particular search terms, BUT ...

My question concerns the use of TopDog for submitting pages to search engines in wihich you do not appear. I've often read that for all the time and effort that goes into submitting pages (content, keywords, alt tags, title, meta tags, etc.), it is best to focus on the search engines and directories that command significant market share among users (yahoo and msn vying for 1st?), generate the most traffic (google and dmoz)and that you can afford (yahoo, looksmart, inktomi), but what about using TopDog to submit pages all the search engines and directories for which you do NOT have a listing?

I have no problem hand-submitting to those search engines and directories at the top of my list, but it sure seems to make sense to use TopDog to submit on a monthly basis to only those search engines and directories in which I don't have a listing.

Thanks in advance for what I consider to be very valuable advice on this topic.

tgorski
www.explorewisconsin.com

[Mel]

Hi Tgorski:

Yes there is nothing at all wrong in Using TopDog or something similar to submit to the lesser search engines, but I would not do it more often than one initial submisssion, with subsequent submissions only if not indexed or if your content changes and is not being picked up. Submitting mothly will not get you a better ranking, will needlessly tie up spider time, and could result in a penalty by some engines.

[Kal]

Given this thread has been bumped recently, I thought it would be relevant to post a link to a range of search engine resources I recently added to my Free Stuff page:
http://www.high-search-engine-ranking.com/free_stuff.htm

I spent a number of weeks searching for free software relating to search engines and came up with this list, which you might find useful. It includes:

- keyword research tools (eg WordTracker)
- link popularity tools (eg Link Popularity Check)
- ranking/positioning software (eg WPG)
- traffic measurement tools (eg Web Trends Live)
- search voyeur tools
- robot emulators

Enjoy!

[Mel]

Nice List Kal;

Take a look also at Agent Web Ranking (http://agentwebranking.com) as a ranking tool. It is now becoming a mature tool and in addition to being faster and somewhat easier to use it also addresses most of the major worldwide engines the WPG does not.

[Kal]

Thanks Mel - I'll check it out and add a link to my page. :cool:

[Christian_SEO]

I did some research a few months ago and will share the results here:

http://www.NielsenTech.com/submission-programs.xls

It may help you to figure out which, if any software you want to buy.

I have just a few points to make on the subjects that have been brought up in this great thread:

1) Manual submission are best. However, while some ignore the lesser engines, I do not. I feel that listing in all available sites gives my client an advantage, so I do it. There is no way I can optimize a site and submit to about 120 systems and it for less than $500 with out automating at least part of the process, as long as the process does not lower the quality of the work.

The only way to do this at a reasonable cost is to use a program to submit to all the systems that will allow it. Directories and majors get the personal attention they deserve. We do NOT submit to FFAs, of course.

We also "semi-automate" the hand submission process. It is NOT one of the stealth programs, but works on the same idea. I am not at liberty to reveal the process at this time.

2) I use Good Keywords which does tap into the Goto.com keyword scoring system. I personally feel this is a more accurate system to score keywords used in searches. Why? Because while it is limited to one main database, that database is fed by all the sites, including many smaller sites. Since most ranking and positioning programs out there use the larger sites, those search queries "taint" the overall results from WordTracker.

Since goto's results are less tainted by ranking search queries, the results are somewhat closer to what the search population in general is really using.

True, WordTracker does provide the KEI numbers, but this may also be affected but the same problem.

So I don't use WT and it helps me to keep my costs down and still provide results that my clients are pleased with.

Anyway, submission software. I passed on WPG because the company bugs me and it's not targeted at professional SEOs, IMO.

I finally decided on Submitta Pro (they have a free version also-recommended). But I purchased the last version of the program only to find the reporting lacking for my needs. The newest version should be much better, but I couldn't wait.

So I then purchased MGAWeb's product which I am satisfied with. It has FFAs, but don't use them! It pulls info from the SEO on all the pages from the site, and you can pick the sites to submit to. The reporting is good, but other programs have better. All in all, it does what I needed and then some and cost $89.

You really need to do the research and find the one that is right for you. One size really does not fit all or we'd ALL be using WPG...

[Mel]

Hi Christain:

Since most ranking and positioning programs out there use the larger sites, those search queries "taint" the overall results from WordTracker.

This is precisely why Wordtracker does NOT get thier results from the larger SEs, but from the metacrawlers, since the ranking programs are not using the metacrawlers.

Using Goto results is not a bad idea as a check, but these results are IMO not representative of searchers on the Major SEs

[Christian_SEO]

Hi Mel,

I was not aware that WT was using MC for their figures. Is there somewhere I can read about how they get their numbers? I did not see that on any of my visits to their site.

If that is true, I'm still not sure how I feel about their figures. I don't think the bulk of average searchers use meta crawlers.

[Advisor]

Hi Christian, welcome to the forum!

Here's the info on WordTracker. The have (or had) this info on their site somewhere, but I couldn't find it now. I copied this from an email I had from them when they rolled out their new program.

Hi,

This is a general message to keep you informed of the latest Wordtracker developments.

Finally! The deal with Infospace for all of the Metacrawler/Dogpile data (some 175 million per month) is complete. As of this morning, we now have 2 months history (approx 60 days) online. That is 350 million keywords. Anyone who was having trouble finding those niches should not have problems anymore!

We have taken as much care as possible to remove all of the obvious spam (people continually hammering the engines with search requests to promote their own products/services). Details of our methods will appear shortly on the site.

Any missing functionality e.g. short term 1000 report will appear shortly too.

Other functionality implemented in the last month:

1. Texis full text engine. As you may have noticed by now, when you enter 'florida real estate', you get back results like 'real estate in florida' and 'florida hows real estate'. That is same words, different order. This is mainly due to the fantastic Texis full text engine available from Thunderstone at www.thunderstone.com.

2. Dig function. When you perform any kind of search in the keyword universe, you can now dig down to the next level. E.g. search for 'gambling'. Then, when you click on 'online gambling', just the results for 'online gambling' come up, click on 'online gambling in states' and so on. Great for focusing on niches.

3. Pluralisation. Thanks to Damian Conway's fantastic work, we now provide accurate pluralization of your keywords. If you enter 'foot', we bring back all results with 'foot' and 'feet', i.e. irregular pluralizations. Works a treat.

4. The new misspellings tool. Hope you all like it. Haven't heard any comments about it though.

Please report any bugs to mikemindel@wordtracker.com. We are on full alert and will resolve all bugs immediately.

I'm afraid I won't be able to reply to all messages so please don't be offended.


Best regards,

Mike Mindel
Technical Director / CEO
Wordtracker Please note, this email was sent back in May 2001 so things may have changed since that time.

Jill

[ihelpyou]

hey Christian, I have to disagree with you about Wordtracker and the Overture checks.

Wordtracker is FAR more accurate and reflects what people actually search on much more than Overture. Wordtracker explains their process completely on their site. For one thing, they do get their results from Metacrawlers which are NOT quiried by any reporting or checking software.

Andy of wordtracker is a member in here and has explained it all in a post in the PPC forum somewhere. Run a search on his username to find the post.

There is zero doubt as to which program is the most accurate. I pay $40 a month to use Wordtracker and could not possibly do my work without it.

[ihelpyou]

Yes Jill, even more improvements since that time. Also, wordtracker makes a distinction between singular and plural forms of a word. Overture does Not. Believe me, there is a big difference on searches when searching for either one. Overture clumps both together so how does anyone know how many searches each get? Impossible to know with the Overture tool.

Many, many more advantages using www.wordtracker.com.

[ihelpyou]

I found Andy's post;

http://www.ihelpyouservices.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=3861#post3861

[Advisor]

Plus, you can get Overture results right from WT! It's nice to see both sometimes. It is interesting how they can be very different.

J

[ihelpyou]

Yes. Very interesting as the Overture results seem to always reflect a Much higher number of searches. We all know why. :) That is fine by me as I know many other SEO's do not spend the money to use Wordtracker and use Overture instead. This gives us a big advantage. :)

[Christian_SEO]

Originally posted by Mel
Hi Christain:

This is precisely why Wordtracker does NOT get thier results from the larger SEs, but from the metacrawlers, since the ranking programs are not using the metacrawlers.

Using Goto results is not a bad idea as a check, but these results are IMO not representative of searchers on the Major SEs

Can you clarify this for me?

I'm reading what you said as:

1) WT does not get results from majors
2) Goto is not representive of the majors

Where then, do we get results that are reresentitive of the majors, which is important, since that is where the bulk of the real searching is done?

Also, does not the size of Goto and the large number of sites that it feeds qualify it as a major?

Thanks,
Christian

[ihelpyou]

hey Christian, that is the problem with GoTo as they do get results from the majors. The majors will show skewed results with EVERY SEO and site owner using the free GoTo tool with their WPG and TD and all other software tool running up the quiries. This is not the accurate number of searches done by real, live users of the major search engines.

Wordtracker uses metacrawlers so their figures are as accurate as possible. NO software programs are quiriing the metacrawlers.

[Advisor]

I don't know, Doug. When GoTo was only getting their results from their own server, and people checking their bids, etc., the results were definitely skewed and basically useless. However, if the Overture results are now getting results from all their partner sites, aka the major search engines, then that info is extremely valuable. Do we know for sure if they're getting their partner information?

I don't know anyone who searches at MetaCrawler, do you? I can't imagine that it's actually representative of the average Internet user. Most have never heard of MetaCrawler and/or Dogpile.

Jill

[ihelpyou]

If you read what Andy has to say about that and also read on the Wt Site, you can see why wt is more accurate than overture is.

Even if overture does get their results from partners also, this is why they are skewed. The software programs all quirie the partners, which skews the results.

Everytime your WPG reporter asks for a search on 'blue widgets', that is recorded by Msn, or whichever engine you are asking, which is then recorded by Overture. All of those quiries add up very fast in one month's time.

WT does not quiry(how do you spell that?:) ) the majors because of this.

[Advisor]

Yes, I understand that WPG and other checking software's definitely skew the results. But I still want to know who exactly searches on MetaCrawler. Is it my target market? Or the target market of my clients? If not, then what good are the results?

This is why I think it's very important these days to use both databases, and it's great the WT offers this service! We have to keep all our options open. WT is awesome, that I know for sure. All of the features that bring up words you'd never think about, etc., can't be beat. I just don't put much stock in the numbers because I don't know who's searching at MetaCrawler. Any tool such as WT or the Overture tool need to be used for what they are, a tool that gives you some idea of keyphrases. Nothing is written in stone except what you find in your own log files.

Jill

[ihelpyou]

hey Jill, please read Andy's explanation why they use the metacrawlers and then how they derive the figures from them. :)

[Mel]

Hi Jill:
While there very well may be differences between how surfers search on Meta crawlers as opposed to major engines, WTs assumption is that there is not all that much difference. WT does get its competition figures from the SEs though.

Regarding the Overture tool, (which always seems to stragely report there are more people looking for a word than WT does) I would suppose that the only results they got from their partners would be from those who clicked through from there, and I would not consider those to be statistically accurate.

[Advisor]

I think both tools are unfortunately not perfect! But we need to take everything into account when dealing with either of them. That's why I love WT, because it allows us to use both tools and get a snapshot of what people are searching for in a variety of places. With the knowledge that any results can be skewed by a variety of things.

J

[ihelpyou]

Just received an email from Andy of Wordtracker:
The numbers at Goto have been extremely over-inflated by the number of different partners that they have.

We recently carried out a test of gotos numbers for a very random keyword "micr toner cartridge" which turned up 52,597 in September.

What I did was to contact everyone who had the top five positions for this keyword these are the responses I received:

1. "I wish! Our number of visitors was less than 70 for the month.
2. "Not anywhere close to that..."
3. "About 2 hits a day on that word"

We too have many keyword positions where the figures just don't match up at all. "Keywords" is a great example if we were to look at goto's stats we should be receiving 1271 a day. We receive about 2 per day.

Our conclusion is not only is the suggestion tool skewed by the words on the front of Goto, ranking software checking the positions within the engine eg.webposition, harcoded queries in places such as epilot. But also all the bid optimizers have appeared recently. They consistently check rankings inside the pay per click engines. Completely boosting the values and skewing the results. There are over 15 bid checkers now. You can imagine what these are doing to the results.

This is why we will always use metacrawlers as the results will never be distorted in this way.

Hope this clears things up

Andy
Wordtracker

[Advisor]

Ahhh...the bid checkers...interesting!

Did you email Andy about this, or did he see the posts?

Jill

[ihelpyou]

Both. :)