Update Austin

[otnot]

Update Austin has been going on for 14 hours and not a mention over here. Go to http://216.239.37.104 and there are several other DC that are showing the new update. Google guy has confirmed that this will go live soon. You can also see it on AOL and Netscape.

Good Luck:cheers:

[nodaclu]

I see it too. It's been devastating for my mini-sites. Nearly 20 keyphrases that I had Top 20 rankings for have dropped out of the Top 200 literally overnight.

This is going to destroy my internet income if this stays like this for very long. What on earth is going on over there?!?

Noda

[benjamin77]

its kind of like whatever rules where applied on the more popular search terms are now being applied on less popular ones

[Bernard]

Hi otnot, folks over here generally do not panic at the onset of every Google update (major algo changes are something else). It's better to analyze the results after the update is done. You cannot learn much when things are still in flux IMO.

[nuthin]

^ totally agreed.
of course results, look absolutely shocking at the moment but whenever google does a major update, they always do at the start.. by the end they always generally look better :)
if there's anything to analyze i'm sure at the end of the update we can have a good discussion about what has happened :)
until then
:thebomb:

[otnot]

Hi Bernard:
I wasn't in a panic! I was just in the mood for a dance. Actually I miss the monthly updates and all the fuss that used to go with them. I just wanted to let everyone know there is something afoot at Google. Right now it appears from the terms I keep track of, that it's old results from pre-florida.

[g1smd]

In a SERP that has been 50% blatent spam for the last few weeks, this update has seen 90% of the spam blasted into infinity.

[russler01kat]

________________
In a SERP that has been 50% blatent spam for the last few weeks, this update has seen 90% of the spam blasted into infinity.
________________

:confused: well my site must of been standing behind one of the spam ones because I went with them... :balling: I hope google gets this one figured out soon. I hate doing research for blue ridge cabin rentals and the first four pages of the results are directorys and a couple of noname sites.

[nuthin]

one of the worst i'm seeing is one i monitor 'game server rental'
check the 1st 1-2-3-4-5 pages or something.
quite amazing ! but i would expect things to change.

[otnot]

My main site went down to Florida for a vaction and just came back last week after a long deserved rest. Now I guess it's time to head to Austin for a while until spring and then begin the northern migration again. What a roller coaster ride! But what do you expect for free.

:cheers:

[MakeMeTop]

Yes, this one's a doozy :D

Just a roll out of Florida into many other commercial areas.

Great swathes of irrelevance in new areas. Try looking for los angeles business centers (or anywhere else that's a major location), or if that still seems really relevant, try the several pages of spam on michigan (or any other State) data recovery.

Yep, Google are really making their search engine the one of choice :)

My choice is to forget them until they sort themselves out!

[glengara]

Early days I know, but I'm seeing few attempts at rational explanations any more ;-)

[qwerty]

We're definitely still in flux.

I noticed yesterday that one of my sites had dropped from #3 to #35 for its main kw phrase. Today the toolbar PR of the home page has dropped from 5 to 4, and reported backlinks (of which I've gotten a few new ones in the past month or two) are down slightly.

But no worries... not yet. I'm giving it a few more days before I start ranting.

[ihelpyou]

hmm. It's becoming a joke. Oh yes, I'm very willing to let this ride out until it's finished.

[nuthin]

absolutely it's time to go with the flow :)
its like their last major update, people were trying to speculate before the whole dance/update was over ?
the end result when the last update finished; nothing on this end.. the results looked good and there were not too many major shifts on my clients sites; sure 1 or 2 here but nothing too major to complain about.
so i guess like everyone else, i will wait it out; even though the current results look utter crap.. i'm sure google knows this and will tweak there algo to make the results look alot better when the update is over.

[RobSpectre]

I've noticed some inconsistencies in implementation of the update. Particular kinds of sites (e.g. doorways) seem to be penalized for phrases of similar popularity and type, but for different geographic areas.

Obviously, this observation is insanely premature... But is anyone else getting that sense?

[polarmate]

I am seeing something wierd in the backlinks of my blogs:
http://www.google.com/search?q=link:http://indianfoodrocks.blogspot.com&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&c2coff=1&filter=0are the backlinks to one of my blogs.
Note the backlinks from AardvarkBusiness.net.

I have another blog (http://polarmate.blogspot.com) where I want to write short blurbs on people/events/films/etc who work in the nonprofit field and charities.
http://www.google.com/search?q=link:http://polarmate.blogspot.com&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&c2coff=1&filter=0
This blog has no links from the AardvarkBusiness.net but they show up anyway. This blog hasn't even taken off.

Is Google saying these two blogs are the same because the owner is the same? Or is this just a mistake?

:confused:

[bigDugan]

I'm not seeing any changes, but then I usually dont see much due to google updates, unless I've changed something on my end! ;)

[Bernard]

Originally posted by polarmate
I am seeing something wierd in the backlinks of my blogs...

This blog has no links from the AardvarkBusiness.net but they show up anyway.

The WWW buttons on your posts are linked to the polarmate.blogspot site. The reported backlinks are correct AFAICT.

[bigDugan]

Polarmate,
I found a link in your Aardvarkbusiness profile (http://www.aardvarkbusiness.net/chat/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=64&sid=7f1fe5e128dd4e15dfb43ab3d08fc3e2) to your polarmate blog.

[bigDugan]

Yes, they are displaying the website link from her profile.

[polarmate]

Duh! That clears up my confusion! And any other that I may have caused!!

[altyfc]

I second Bernard's remarks wholeheartedly... let's wait for things to settle before jumping to conclusions on what is or isn't happening.

Aaron

[nuthin]

some pages of mine are getting filtered back in as we speak to where they were pre-austin and have even improved :)
it's just quite amazing to see some folk on other boards etc, trying to analyze the update so much when it's still going on.
of course theres still some results i'm backing on getting filtered back in but that will happen
:D
i don't think we have seen the 'demise' of google just yet... it seems to happen every major update people get so worried and most of the experienced SEO's just sit back, relax and go with the flow.

[benjamin77]

why are people calling it update 'austin'?

wouldn't the name start with a 'g'

[qwerty]

It's a new year, so they start back at the beginning of the alphabet.

[milette]

I'd suggest that the proposal that Google has done the same for the 'less popular' keywords as it did with the popular ones is pretty close to the mark.

My main keywords phrase, "custom toolbars" went from number one to who the heck knows where.

The stuff that's coming up on the first couple of pages of results is mostly garbage.

Interestingly enough -- the Google AdWords column is now FULL of ads for these, and other keywords I target. Previously, there were only 2 or 3 ads up for these keywords.

Looks like most of the sites that actually SELL custom toolbar products were wiped off the first pages of search results. (Interesting -- these are the sites that would be 'competitors' of the AdWords clients.)

Results are TERRIBLE in any case -- full of sites that don't even HAVE exact-match keyword phrases. Links to blogs, and discussions that only mention the keyword once, and so on. Same story as previous Google update.

Did this update IMPROVE Googles results? ABSOLUTELY NOT?
Does it improve the 'value' of AdWords? YES, because all the competition has been knocked off the first pages.

Anyway, I still have number one and plenty of first page spots for 'alternate' keywords -- but who knows how long that will last.

Marty R. Milette
Custom Toolbars (http://www.custom-toolbars.com)

[ihelpyou]

Welcome to the forums Marty! :hi:

[AndrewB]

I've found it interesting that for the keywords I used to rank around the top five for I'm no longer there since the update but... Instead there are links to directory or directory type pages that have my link listed in it. There's even a link using a query string that ranks at number 3 that links to my website details page in the directory confused: So the visitor will see only details about my website. I can understand for my type of searches eg 'web design company' that the user would probably want directories or something coming up so that they can check out a few different companies this was a good move by google. But if google wants to return pages that all contain links to me anyway near the top then why not leave a direct link to my website at the top of the SERPS ? :D Just j/k I just thought I would share my findings with you all.

[benjamin77]

its sort of funny all the converstions are exactly the same as the after the 'florida update'

except its different people

let me guess

you have noticed that

1- directories are dominating the results. often a single page on a subject is ranking higher then sites that are all about that subject

2- sometimes a page that is mostly unrelated but has link to your site is ranking higher then your actually site, for your terms

3- you did nothing spammy yet your sites still dropped

5- not only did you sites drop but they dropped 100s of places if not totally off the map

anything else

[benjamin77]

oh did i mention I found this ebook for only 29 buck that tells you how to fix your site

http://thehappyguy.com/SEO.html

[ihelpyou]

Yep. Oh, I'm still not happy.

NO WAY could anyone be happy with a bunch of stupid large .com directories taking up the serps.

What does this tell anyone?

[benjamin77]

if you are feeling singled out

add allintext: to your search terms

you should get the old results

if you compare to the new results

almost everyone else is gone too

this usually makes me feel better

[Danny]

Andrew noticed something interesting.
He said :
I've found it interesting that for the keywords I used to rank around the top five for I'm no longer there since the update but... Instead there are links to directory or directory type pages that have my link listed in it.
I'm seeing the very same thing !
About 2 weeks ago, i thought i wanted to be helpfull to my visitors and added a page on my site with links to (the few interesting dutch language) directories. Now all those directories are having a hold on the top spots.
Same for a link i made to another site about webdesign.
At the same time, my PR went from 4 to 6.
It remarkable that they rank high for my main keyterm, the same term they use to link to me.
On the other hand, i have my rankings back for other terms that got affected by florida.

Furthermore, so far there is a huge difference with the Florida update in the fact that Austin is also affecting non-English web sites.

[only1f]

Talking about directories taking over Google, I am starting to regret being listed in business.com and helping them take over the top positions for my keywords :mad:

[qwerty]

But if business.com gets the traffic from the SERP, you've got a better chance of getting traffic from business.com.

Those of us who've always said you didn't need to submit to paid directories (yes, my hand is raised) are the ones who may need to rethink things.

[Webmaster T]

Originally posted by benjamin77
[B]oh did i mention I found this ebook for only 29 buck that tells you how to fix your siteHogwash using a bunch of scare tactics! Even known spammers seldom get banned by Google they get penalized into oblivion but they are seldom banned! Using invisible links or remote querying of Google are the only things I've seen a site banned for. Remove the invisible links and you are good to go if it was remote querying then only a new domain and stopping the activity will remove the ban. Why must people use disinformation to sell. Likely because the product isn't that good to begin with. Look at the terms he's bragging about, a chimp could optimize a page for those terms!

[Webmaster T]

Originally posted by qwerty
But if business.com gets the traffic from the SERP, you've got a better chance of getting traffic from business.com.

Those of us who've always said you didn't need to submit to paid directories (yes, my hand is raised) are the ones who may need to rethink things. Agreed Bob, I didn't care for them but I've been looking at them not only because of the prominance in the SERPs but because they are doing extensive PPC campaigns. I'm wondering if they aren't a better alternative than running your own PPC campaign when you factor in the costs to manage and click fraud associated with PPC. You loose the branding component, but...... how much value does that have?

I also believe some such as MySimon, dealtime, and HarmonyCentral are becoming destinations as users seem to have taken a shine to these review and price comparison sites. There was much being said in the online marketing news about these sites at Xmas. IMO, they are naturals for shopping and saavy online shoppers gravitate to them. IMO, those that liked them this year will start there next year and leave the SE out of it entirely.

You can do almost all your online shopping from a single site with reviews and price comparison tools. What more could you do for a buyer since info on the products beyond the review is of no interest to them but only to the person they were buying for.

[only1f]

Originally posted by qwerty
But if business.com gets the traffic from the SERP, you've got a better chance of getting traffic from business.com.

Those of us who've always said you didn't need to submit to paid directories (yes, my hand is raised) are the ones who may need to rethink things.

I am just saying that I would like to take its spot, I have a better chance of getting traffic if I was where I use to be, where business.com is now.

[russler01kat]

Well I am very, very happy that I am not the only one in the bad boat! But I feel for you all that have dropped like I did. :(

As for google... Well I am just about done with them and I can see a lot of people moving away from them. When I am looking for a site like real estate, cabin rentals, or something like that I would like to find the best. Anyone can pay their way into a directory and look ok but its the ones that put money in their sites making their customers happy and their sites are easy to navigate are the ones that I like. I just have a feeling that google is loosing 100's of people by the day with these crappie results. I am sorry but if I am looking for cabin rentals in Blue Ridge I don't want to see cabins in California, Tahoe, Europe or anything else... I want to see cabin rentals in Blue Ridge! So my next move as a searcher would be go to a search engine that knows what they are doing that can give relevant results. So unless google changes, I am through with them and I will start optimizing for msn and yahoo (when yahoo changes). I will have to tell my customers that google has their head up their a$$ and they are trying to get people to pay for ppc, or they'll have to pay to get into the directories to rank high in google. And that’s not for their site to rank hi, its for the directories to rank hi and they might get a hit or two from them. I really think google has stepped in it this time!

[glengara]

I had thought the whole thing was just another Snafoogle, but I now have to assume it's both deliberate and momentous.
We may well be watching a chrysalis slowly turning into a butterfly; the in-between stages are messy, and can be quite revolting ;-).

[AndrewB]

A search engine that brings up directory pages is no good, if people wanted a directory listing then they would go straight to the directory site which should be easy enough to navigate to the category they are looking for, they don't need a search engine to find this for them. Let's hope G is just testing a few things and will get back to it's normal self soon.

[Farhan]

Personally I am not that unhappy with Google SERP's. Current results have lesser crappy affiliate sites or sites which weren't on topic but ‘optimized’. Pre-Florida it was easier to optimize your site for a certain keyword even if your site was not on-topic. A handful of incoming anchors, h1 tags, etc etc and there you were on the first page of SERPs.

The current algo, I believe, overcame issues like this. Yes more directory sites, big shopping sites are there but, from a searcher's point of view, I am contented with these results than to visit some newborn, me-too businesses, who learned the ‘secrets’.

The current algo favors bigger sites, with good structure and more on topic content. You need to get voted by real good on topic sites before Google believes that your site is relevant. And I am sure it shouldn’t take long for other SE’s to follow :)

[Farhan]

Originally posted by AndrewB
A search engine that brings up directory pages is no good, if people wanted a directory listing then they would go straight to the directory.....

Yeah that's fine for us, people who are internet savvy, but I don't think it's the same for a normal searcher. Half of my friends, not in this internet business, don't know the difference between a search engine and a directory, let alone go and search or browse categories in a directory.

[benjamin77]

Let's hope G is just testing a few things and will get back to it's normal self soon.

dude its been like this since november


more on topic content. You need to get voted by real good on topic sites before Google believes that your site is relevant.

type in "flash design" you get amazon at number 5

you don't think that one of the million flash designer , or flash deisgn tutorial sites out there would be a little bit better source of info

newborn, me-too businesses

how about a site that actually devoted to topic you typed in, I think a newborn , me-too business (whatever that is) on topic would be a bit better then a page that has the phrase in an unrelated directory

[Farhan]

type in "flash design" you get amazon at number 5

Do you think that result is off-topic or irrelevant. I quickly scanned the top 10 results and it seemed fine to me.. if not great. I still say that these are not perfect results and there are areas where results are bad. Google should be working to improve them.

how about a site that actually devoted to topic you typed in, I think a newborn , me-too business (whatever that is) on topic would be a bit better then a page that has the phrase in an unrelated directory

Search engines can't judge whether the "quality of the content' of a particular page is better than the other (on the basis of what the page says about itself) and so they rely on factors like incoming links. Of course a new site can be much better and more relevant but how can a search engine know that, unless other sites vote for it. And if a site is that good, it will get links from various resources and will start showing up eventually.

[benjamin77]

I don't know

but it would seem next to impossible for any mom & pop websites to rank well with the new system

the first change effected a bunch of my sites but they where all releatvely competive areas

I figured thats life

this next update just killed a bunch of my sites, sites that I did no real optimization on. sites that where primary promoted by their owners

I cannot see many "normal" people buckling down to try to get their sites back when they are competitng wiht PR 7+ directories

I think basically unless you have a real budget or relatively a lot of computer know now google might be off limits

but the same is true with television commercials

[Danny]

Sorry,
but i think that everyone who thinks the current results are great, should try to limit the search being made to e.g. sites from Belgium only.

For the keyterm "webdesign", GG shows only 3 real web design companies in the top30 !!

Most of them are portals,
#3 has a page title of "click here to continue"
#5 says "welcome to the site of the independant antique experts"

How can this possibly be to any advantage of either searcher ?

Lots of sites that lost rankings during Florida are now reinstalled with even better results than before.
I only hope that what we're seeing at the moment is Google's attempt to filter out all spammers.
Maybe in a first phase (Florida) they did it for the most requested keyprases, maybe in a second phase (Austin) for the other keyphrases.

[maninderwalia]

Hi!
It seems to me that regional google sites are giving relevant results.
What dou say on this?

Mani

[benjamin77]

for the results i watch i would say the majority of people that where booted in florida have not come back

so I wouldn't get your hopes up too much

[benjamin77]

whats a regional google site?

[Danny]

It seems to me that regional google sites are giving relevant results. I suppose you mean google.it , google.nl and so ?
Normally, every regional google site should give the same results as google.com when there's no limitation for language or country specific sites.
However, it doesn't ! For some phrases, Google.nl is still giving different results than google.com or google.be (with one of my vanished pages being in there !)

It all depends on the keyphrase one is searching for.
I also see reasonable results for some phrases without directories being in the first 10 results, then again other results are full of crap.

I also notice that it's not about missing sites in a whole, it's about certain pages that are missing for a certain keyphrase.

[Webmaster T]

I'm pretty sure that I read that Google hasn't made the changes to the regional sites so they are for the most part unaffected by the changes.

[Webmaster T]

Originally posted by benjamin77
I cannot see many "normal" people buckling down to try to get their sites back when they are competitng wiht PR 7+ directoriesHmmm, instead of thinking that a directory page with a PR of 7 doesn't belong there I'd be thinking how did this page become a PR7? if that only comes because someone linked to that information, IMO, it's pretty obvious there is a demand for this information! I'd be looking to copy the directories success by finding even better sites to link to. In fact that directory page is where I'd start my research!

The result? Higher PR and trafiic from the sites linking to them. Ever heard of a HUB? They were around before Google and they are competing with the directories quite nicely. Unless of course they went the link campaign route and now have all these irrelevant sites pointing at them which IMO, only detracts from the HUB factor.

[benjamin77]

even if you get pretty good links it takes a pretty big effort to get PR 7

[only1f]

I dont believe the update is completely over, at least I hope not. During the Florida update, the same thing happened, but with different sites. You just have to sit back and wait for it to finish. And if its like the Florida update many of our sites, mine at least, will come back to their original positions.

[maninderwalia]

Hi!
Yeah Danny is right I am talking about specific country sites of google which are showing better results and infact giving leads rather than the main google search.

Mani

[AndrewB]

Originally posted by Farhan
Yeah that's fine for us, people who are internet savvy, but I don't think it's the same for a normal searcher. Half of my friends, not in this internet business, don't know the difference between a search engine and a directory, let alone go and search or browse categories in a directory.

I thought about that also but is it the Search Engine's duty to promote the directory by bringing up results containing it's pages in the top 5-10 I should hope not, there are other ways to promote a directory.

[WebSavvy]

When you guys refer to "directories" being in the SERPs, are you meaning directories in the likes of Amazon, and Bizrate, etc.? Or do you mean directories like DMOZ, JoeAnt, Gimpsy, WebSavvy, et al?

From my POV having a directory that was capable of being spidered and deliver clean URIs was something that was desirable. Site owners cheif complaint was that in order to be found by a major SE they needed an incoming link to their site.

So, they sought out directories to be listed in where they knew the pages would be indexed and thus the incoming link to their site would be found as well.

Now please explain to me how it is right, correct, or OK, for someone's site to be found through the directory listing by the SE spider, but it's not right, correct, or OK, for that directory page to be indexed or show up in a SERP? You can't have it both ways.

If you want to have that incoming link to your site to be found, the directory page *has* to get crawled by Google. Having been indexed, of course it's going to show up in the SERPs.

Now, look at it this way ... If your site is indexed in said directory, and its' pages are placing well within the SERPs, this helps your site because the searcher would actually find your site Vs it being buried on its own underneath 4 million other pages for the same keyword term.

[maninderwalia]

Hi!
This update has been really terrible specially for sites using no spammy techniques but only pure HTML.
The big Guns are at the top of the results and this seems so negative for Google and the Internet as a whole.
Its alright like Farhan mentioned to get popular big sites on top but not big sites which have used multiple domains or used some spammy techniques like hidden text.
I visited other forums and it seems a majority feeling that this has been really bad one Now obviously most of us in the forums are more serious about this is because most of us have been discussing over the years the real content rich simple sites would do better but this update its reverse the more dynamic sites are being crawled everyday forget being at the top.
:(

Mani

[nuthin]

i've been monitoring a few terms for the past week or so now // all ranking well and truly better in regional / non-english serps at places like google.es, google.it, google.de + other non-english google's.
i am noticing slowly but surely alot of these terms are getting rolled over and showing on the .com 1by1.
i think there still working on it and results that you are seeing on the non-english versions of google will _eventually_ (well at least i hope) will all be rolled over to the .com.

[qwerty]

I'm seeing things working there way back over the past 3 days or so. I only had one keyword drop (the most important one, of course), and it didn't go all that far: from 3 to about 38. In the last few days it's climbed back to 13.

Actually, it was at 13 about 4 hours ago. I just looked again and it's at 17, but that's better than 38.

[witchblade]

Is this Austin shakeout officially over yet? I'm all over the board with this one. I have a client who had virtually no effects from this and retained a lot of top ten rankings for items she sells, but the company I work for and spent months pulling out of the google gutter has practically fallen off the charts. Just two weeks ago a term we ranked #8 for over months is not anywhere in the top 300. We've literally fallen off the map. I work very hard to provide good readable content that incorporates keywords, maybe not as well as a trained SEO writer, but it's always been successful. We don't use underhanded redirects, just .htaccess redirects from old pages .html pages that were converted to .php during our makeover last year. We don't use hidden text, don't link in bad neighborhoods (i'm sure part of our program is not enough backwards links). I'm just ready to cry. When I started here, the company website was entirely graphics based with no alt text. I convinced the owner to start over (which also meant all new promotional materials) and we saw results within weeks. I don't even know where I'd start if I had to start all over and there is no way the boss is going to authorize expenses for adwords.

AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!

[RobSpectre]

Hang tight.

I got a client that lost PageRank in the update and just got it back today. Still no change in the index, but I'm sure its coming soon.

Your work was not in vain. ;)

[projectphp]

I work very hard to provide good readable content that incorporates keywords, maybe not as well as a trained SEO writer, but it's always been successful.
That thinking, centred around controlable elements like content, might need to change. The new Google, as far as I can see, favours heavy intertwining of your site with the web as a whole. Of all the sites I look at, only two suffered, and both were rather small players in massive industries, and all the big sites not only didn't suffer, but in many cases prospered. All where sites with big PR departments, frequent press and multitude of links spread accross both industry relevant and and non-related sites.

Call it LocalRank, TSPR, HillTop whatever you like, but the more links from unique domains you have, especially in related areas, the better sites seem to do.

And really, that makes sense. How many sites providing similar content from an identical perspective do we need per SERP? IMHO, unless it is extremely obvious what a search is for, variety of semantic meaning and perspective is better than similarity, which is ultimately more relevant, to more people, more often.

To illustrate, under such a scenario, there is only room on the SERPs for a few hotels in a search for "hotel london". While this seems couterintuitive, or plain wrong, I believe it makes sense.

Traditional relevance says, "a search for Hotel London should provide London hotel sites, like the London Hilton". In reality, a search for Hotel London may be better served by providing the person with a variety of sources, with information about hotels, such as reviews, rate comparisons, star ratings etc, as well as being sent straight to a hotel page.

This is a very different way of thinking about relevance, and the semantic meaning of a search, and relates more to the intention of a search, and the type of information required to fulfil this underlying user requirement.

The easiest means for a search engine in providing such variety would be to look at how intertwined a site is on the Net. In the example given, reviews will tend to be well linked, as will a few big, popular or well known hotels. Smaller hotels wont be well linked, and would probably drop quite a long way.

Loking to the future, Google has traditionally moved toward using metrics that are harder and harder to spoof. Topic or search specific linking as a metric, or alternately toolbar derived, user behavioural info, are the hardest metrics to fake. If such information was to be used in a SE algo, and remeber that the Google toolbar is installed accross million of browser, the best anyone could do to prosper would be to try to build a website worthy of bookmarking, as these are the sites that will, in the long run, have the best results if / when, such metrics are factored in.\

I know a lot of that isn't nice, easy specifics that can be quickly implemented, but maybe this time the solutions aren't simple, and all one can do is to build a truly great site.

[benjamin77]

or truly great links

[Danny]

or truly great links And it seems that even link building has become a dangerous thing to do !
I see sites that are ranked higher than me for the term "webdesign" while they use that word only once on their page and it happens to be in the link towards my site.

added : It's a regional business directory

[projectphp]

or truly great links
kinda teh same, really. You may get a slight competitive advantage with a heavy linking campaign, but really, building content worthy of links is the key, more now than ever. this will only increase over time, especially if "great links" are defined as one way links, links from high PR sites, links from reated sites or from simply number of unique domains the links come from.

[witchblade]

This REALLY stinks. We were #7 for Award Winning Graphic Design... post Austin results we're not even on the map 300 results out and the top ranking site for that term has keyword stuff alt tags and a long list of hidden text at the bottom of the page:

http://www.rainbow-graphics.com/

WTF, I thought the algo changes were supposed to filter out those sort of cheap tactics.

Once again the honest SEO's are being beaten out by underhanded tactics. It's enough to make you turn to the dark side :mad:

[polarmate]

You bet cheap tactics are being filtered out!! Especially those web sites that have the following repeated as hidden text:
Web Site Designing, WEB SITE DESIGNING, DESIGNING WEBSITES, Designing Websites, designing websites, homepage designing, Good web Designer, Best Web designer, Award WIning Web Designer, Homepage Designing,HOMEPAGE DESIGNING, DESIGNING WEBSITE, Designing Websites
;)

According to me, it smells really GOOD!! Thank you for restoring my faith in Google!

[benjamin77]

holy cow , witch blade you got hella hidden text on your homepage

I don't know people even still tried to do that

[qwerty]

I don't think Rainbow is witchblade's site.

[benjamin77]

wow sorry don't sue me for libel

[witchblade]

Maybe you misunderstood me... the url I listed IS the spammer who IS #1 for that keyphrase RIGHT NOW, post austin. The spammer is WINNING... we don't do any of that and we're not even in the top 300.

BTW, our URL is in my profile. Not the best site, but I don't think I've used any blatant spam.

[Webmaster T]

Originally posted by projectphp
Traditional relevance says, "a search for Hotel London should provide London hotel sites, like the London Hilton". In reality, a search for Hotel London may be better served by providing the person with a variety of sources, with information about hotels, such as reviews, rate comparisons, star ratings etc, as well as being sent straight to a hotel page.

This is a very different way of thinking about relevance, and the semantic meaning of a search, and relates more to the intention of a search, and the type of information required to fulfil this underlying user requirement.I agree PHP when someone searches for London Hotel they could actually be searching for many different types of information so Google is returning sites that cover as many related topics as possible hence the directories are at the top.

IMO, the content on a site should at the very least link to "authorities" on these topics. Using PHP's example I'd have Hub pages optimized for "London Hotel Reviews" and links to sites that do reviews. If the hotel I was promoting was reviewed I'd link directly to the review. I could care less if they linked back as IMO, it improves the site for users but more importantly it puts you in the same position as the directories which are just bigger HUBS by narrowing the focus of the topic to just London Hotels your HUB is more likely to come up for a general search on "London Hotel".

IMO, the problem with Google results at present is there is no way for a user to figure this out. If Google had secondary results similar to what Teoma has then the results become much more useful because it is obvious then that the search was too general. It could also just list the associated topics at the top with a direct link to the directory or query. IMO, Googles results aren't that bad they just expect too much from users searching for specific information.

[polarmate]

Ooooh! It smells bad! :eek: I apologize witchblade. For reading it as your site. :rolleyes: I missed the colon!

Take a closer look at your web site. You are not really optimized for award winning graphic design. Your graphic design page can do with some tweaking to the title and the content. It only has one backlink from your homepage where the anchor text is Graphic Design. I would also link to the sites that have given you the awards. No point in being award winning if people can't see who gave the awards.

You can report the site for near hidden text. The font color is #fefefe which is very close to white so we cannot see it in the browser. I looked at a couple of their backlinks and this appears to be a technique that has been used on those sites, too.

Additionally sites like rainbow are easy to beat with simple on-page optimization.

[russler01kat]

I can see the point of directories but most directories want you to pay to be listed in them. So now you have a payment to a directory that is so called promoting your site and if that directory spams then they get kicked and you have to pay another. I can see that directories give a user a lot of info off of one site but my issue is that a lot of small companies can't pay all the directories that are currently holding information about their site. That can really add up, (a lot more then a seo). I feel google should spit their search, where someone can search for directories or they can search for sites. Because all I see in directories around here are nicely organized link farms.

[witchblade]

Don't worry, I was really mad and didn't make myself as clear as I could have. I know we can bump up our writing to do better, and I've been working on backlinks, but with all the "bad neighborhood" stuff, we didn't push too hard on it.

it just ticks me off that REAL spammers are topping the charts now while honest sites were effectively penalized. Current results go against everything Google has been telling us to avoid in the webmaster/seo guidelines. I don't care is deserving sites rank better than us (well... I care, but at least we have a goal to work towards), but I can't beat spamming techniques. I could report these cheating sites, but from everything else I've read here from others who report bad sites, I'm wasting even more of my energy than I am now griping about it. <sigh> Time to drown my sorrows in chocolate and hope the next algo change reverses the flow.

[Webmaster T]

Originally posted by russler01kat
I can see that directories give a user a lot of info off of one site but my issue is that a lot of small companies can't pay all the directories that are currently holding information about their site.The "level playing field" is becoming a myth. It has steadily been eroded to the point that it is no longer even remotely true. Online businesses can no longer expect to get by with $0 budgets for promotion (time is worth something it just can't really be measured in $). Sad but a fact of life. I don't believe it is a good thing but the reality is the net is gravitating to a business model that more closely reflects the offline business world. Would you expect to open a brick and mortar store with no advertising? You can, but, it will be a long journey to success relying only on word of mouth.

[benjamin77]

actaully its a good thing for people who know seo

the more compettive the results are the more likely that people have to hire out

[witchblade]

that's all fine and good, but if it's the spammers who are getting the top ranks, it won't be the honest SEO's getting the business.

[benjamin77]

well that how it works in pretty much every business off of the web too

look at how the big corportions act

[russler01kat]

So what it really comes down to... You eather have to be a directory, spammer, or god to rank high in google. Well we are none of the above with a very little advertising budget so the way it looks we should pack up and move away from Google. I guess when people want $itty results they will use google and when they want something that works they will use the new yahoo or msn.

I know it is possible to beat some of the directories but we are talking hours and hours of hard work and you still might not beat them, you still might just be kicked the next month. So as of right now, google is on my $hit list and I hope they know that :p I just wish they would pull their head out of their butt and fix the results.

Just so its straight, the directories that I find are link farms with catagories, not directories that have reviews, and real information. The ones with real info are ok at being at the top, at least they have content!

[glengara]

IMO we're in the middle of a process, and I wouldn't worry about directories being top of the SERPs long term.
Hilltop favours directories as "experts", but does not envisage "experts" being the ultimate results returned, so just get links in topical categories from as many directories/linkspages as you can.

[benjamin77]

just curious but why do people think its the hilltop algo

Its like some one found that paper every seo related person jumped on the bandwagon

the present results do not reflect hilltop, at least i don't think so

do you that amazon or bizrate has more topic sentive pagerank then a site about a specific subject

they have about the most untopic sentive page rank as you can get

people love talking about "hilltop' this and "hilltop that"

and then they quote someones ebook

do you think people really write those ebooks to help the world or do think its just a form of viral marketing

I mean come on

[glengara]

*just curious but why do people think its the hilltop algo*

Good point, particularly since they've a Patent that's quite similar!
However, they do differ in how "experts" are chosen, and, IMO, would work well together.

[benjamin77]

people have patents in all types of stuff

I don't think it very expensive to apply for one

and many people apply for one just block other people

[glengara]

Great! so save me going through all the pages, what's your read on it?

[WebSavvy]

Originally posted by russler01kat
... Because all I see in directories around here are nicely organized link farms.
OUCH! Not all directories are nicely organized link farms. My own directory for example, is not a link farm. We take great pride in the fact that we filter what goes into the directory and take great pains to make sure we don't index any garbage.

My editors even check for hidden text and hidden links on the sites. If any are found, we won't index that site. Simple as that.

We also do not charge to list you. WebSavvy will always be free to submit to. Our costs of running a free directory are covered by what we earn with advertising.

[glengara]

Collapse of Stoat Party?

[ihelpyou]

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=breast+pumps

Back to the 'breast pumps' query. Check a new page at #7 now for that term.

www.mindspring.com/~tarochelle/

It's "only" because of the "parent" domain of mindspring.com that the page is anywhere in a SERP result. It's this kind of thing that makes you wonder what the hell Google is trying to prove or do at this time.

[ihelpyou]

Wow. How does a page like the above get into the DMOZ directory?

http://directory.google.com/Top/Shopping/Health/Reproduction_and_Sexuality/Pregnancy_and_Birth/Breastfeeding/?il=1

My goodness. How does a page like that get anywhere or do anything?

:hit: :green: :bouncy:

[The Man in the Jar]

A stoat is weasely recognisable....

...but a weasel is stoatally different.

(God, I'm sorry. I just couldn't resist.)

[russler01kat]

I did say all directories are organized link farms... Just the ones around here are. I know some are really nice and don't charge to take on sites. Some are really carefull on what they have and make sure its all relivant. But there are so many out there that do all the oposites. And thoes are the ones that are ranking high around here and they charge you to have a link on their site. Sorry abou the confusion but I do believe there are good and bad directory sites... THE ONES HERE ARE BAD! So sorry abou the confusion

[ihelpyou]

"Just the ones around here are"

I am also confused. What do you mean by "here?"

[nuthin]

i'm noticing no pagerank is being displayed on any site (greyed out bar)
or it could be just my toolbar, unless others are noticing the same...

[qwerty]

The toolbar's working for me. But we all know how buggy it can get sometimes. Try refreshing the page you're on.

[maninderwalia]

Hi!
So as I mentioned earlier this update hasn't been good at all and according to non techincal people who have been doing search on google lately have been not been happy with the quality of results put forward to them.
Once this happens its not good for Google according to me.

Mani

[benjamin77]

oh like i havn't heard that before

watch in a month or so 1/3 of the kicked sites will be back in the results

and then eveyoen will move on like in november

[russler01kat]

What I ment about directories around here... Is that any directory listing that has anything to do with my location on the map are just links, no info, nothing important, just links. So I call them organized link farms. To me a good directory would be something with reviews, info, anything more then links.

I really hope google starts bringing back some of the old stuff.

[Webmaster T]

The obvious question is do you know what a link farm is? IMO, that's a pretty harsh comment to make about any site.

[benjamin77]

my sites are link farms 8)

[benjamin77]

www.mindspring.com/~tarochelle/

doug metioned , does that seem very hilltopish

at all

[russler01kat]

I know exactly what a link farm is. But if you had read my posts you would know what I am talking about. Lack of a better term I am calling a organiced list of just links, no other information a "organized link farm" To ME I see a link farm as a site of just links, no information, just links. Now if the site has valid information about the links and area or anything else, then it is not a link farm and I am happy they are at the top of the search engines. Its the ones that have no information, just pages and pages of links are the ones that I feel are just organized link farms. I feel and my customers feel that finding sites on the web with just loads of links are useless. Now if that site that had loads of links and information about them and the area or the attraction then to me is a valid site.

Its just my opinion but I don't feel like I am the only one that feels this way. Only get defensive if you site is just links and NO information about them or about anything for that matter.

[ihelpyou]

Yeah benj.

Not only is that a 'one' page site that is hosted by mindspring.com, BUT check out the domain of:

www.mindspring.com

LOL It redirects to Earthlink.

How the hell can Google tell us that one page site IS relevant to the term of:

breast pumps

?? I'll never know. It makes zero sense in every way.

[WebSavvy]

Google's results have gotten bad all of the sudden. This is being said not as someone in the business, but as someone just doing a search for some information.

I'm going to be doing some redecorating after I finish moving in three more weeks and was looking in Google for something I wanted to buy, an upholstered headboard cover to go over the wooden headboard on a Queen Anne 4 poster bed.

I was looking for something in blue velvet to match with the blue velvet drapes and blue velvet bedspread. Using the term:
velvet upholstered headboard cover you get nothing but ebay results, auction results from Lunds, or crap from bizrate.

Oh I did manage to find one site that had the right "words" ... but that was it. Seems they had about 4 piles of keyword stuffed text at the bottom same color as their background. This is really pathetic.

I sure hope Google gets back to normal soon or I will probably be using another search engine that provides more relevant results.

[ihelpyou]

Deb, the number one site in the serp on that term is a redirect to an ebook that woman is promoting. :D Nothing to do with what you need.

[WebSavvy]

I know Doug, see ... that's what I'm saying. The search term I used should have produced at least one vaild site that I could have made a purchase from, but it did not. That's pathetic.

[maninderwalia]

Hi!
If this algorithm stays then I think the only thing we can do is optimize our own site regularly with content updation everyday.
How can we keep our clients happy if one month we say title is important and make a good page which is customer and search engine friendly and next month we say title has lost importance and now we have to concentrate on illogical link building and make the site look big in terms of content whether its neccessary or not.
I think we can only do seo for ourselves at the present.
Most of you must now be in awkward positions with your clients?

Mani

[russler01kat]

Well I do have a few customers and I have already told them that Google has done a nasty change, it should go back to better results but I don't know when. So we will start focusing on the new yahoo (when complete) and MSN. I am not going to worry about it in the long run becuause if google keeps it up they will loose many of thier customers and most people will start using other search engines. So the position does suck for seo but what I tell my customers is "if I could control a billion dollar company, I would be a billion dollar man"

[tasari]

I found something strange..
Every time there is an "update/change" in Google then I see an answer telling wait till everything is normal.. but I followed the discussions and people are telling this for MONTHS now...

Does anyone knows what Google's deadline is ?? When finally we can say : this is it ! Now look at our results.. how to improve etc ...

About the linking.. if I read right if you link to a page that links back to the exact same page (that contains that link) you could be penalized because it is a 'reciprocal' link ??

[qwerty]

I don't believe you get penalized for a reciprocal link. It's possible you don't get much if any of a boost from it, especially if the page you're linking with isn't complementary to yours, but that's not the same thing as a penalty.

And no one knows when this mess will be fixed. I doubt even the people at the Googleplex know. I think that if they'd known these last algo changes would so totally screw up their results, they'd have beta tested it instead of taking it live.

But if the theory that the algo learns as it's used is true, I suppose it was necessary to go live with it and let it find its way back to relevance. We'll see.

[tasari]

Another question ;-)

Are sub domains being punished... I had several (5) subdomains all very related to each other.. pointing to eachtothers main link..
After the update of 23 january my earnings jumped, but from 28 january it crashed :-(
Just thinking maybe it is because I use sub domains... dunno...

[qwerty]

From what I've heard, people are complaining because subdomains are doing so well in Google these days. They're hoping people will be penalized for using them, but don't see it happening.

Can I ask why you've got things set up that way? Are you doing it because it makes sense for your users, or is it exclusively to get more attention from Google?

[tasari]

No I just wanted to separate them clearly...
It is 5 MAIN keywords that are related to eachother...
But I made of course some 25-40 pages per keyword.. but no doorway pages.. content pages !!

I just was wondering why I got suddenly a lot less visitors.. I am not looking every time to my positions.. but I didn't change anything and I know Google was doing changes.. just trying to figure out why I was hurt badly.. but I can be that it is Google playing a bit.. but I am hurt badly since 28 january...

[projectphp]

Originally posted by savvy1
I know Doug, see ... that's what I'm saying. The search term (velvet upholstered headboard cover) I used should have produced at least one vaild site that I could have made a purchase from, but it did not. That's pathetic.
What were their no AdWords? Why should the free results have commercial listings? Why should the free bit have sellers, and not information? What if I want a review, or a want a how to artcile describing installing one?

To say there were no relevant results, when there were AdWords, seems a bit crazy to me!!!

[glengara]

IMO, ideally we should get a mix, I was glad to see a Billie Holiday site come up first page for "holiday" recently.

[Chris_D]

Hey Deb,

Awful lot of that Javascript redirecting going on in the serps .... notice where the www.slip-covers.org/slipcover/velvet-dining-slip-cover.html actually takes you to?

Its called sp[austin]m.....

[WebSavvy]

Yeah, I did see that Chris. LOL!

ProjectPHP, you missed my point. My point was, that none of the sites that came up for that term, were selling what I was looking for. I was not looking for slip covers or dust ruffles or bolsters etc.

I was looking for a headboard cover that's upholstered. I wanted one in velvet fabric to match with the other accessories I already have. Finding one for a 4 poster Queen Anne bed is not easy. We don't even have a furniture store where I live ... (and no I don't live in a shack in the woods) :green:

I actually live in a very nice house, on more than 15 acres of land and a private lake. It's miles into town and then another 60 miles beyond that to our nearest furniture store. Shopping on the Internet is something I do quite a bit.

And for what it's worth, yes, there were AdWords, but not for what I was looking for. Also, secondly, I never buy anything from an ad.

[RobSpectre]

I don't know if abstaining from purchasing products from search engine ads is really advisable anymore.

At least they have editorial guidelines. Adwords serving might have eclipsed the relevancy of actual search.

[WebSavvy]

Originally posted by RobSpectre
I don't know if abstaining from purchasing products from search engine ads is really advisable anymore.
Actually, to me, it makes perfect sense. Most of the sites that advertise using adwords for products such as the one I've mentioned, are the big .com commercial sites with deep pockets.

I'd rather support some small business (mom & pop shoppe) who could use the business. It's the way I have always done things. If smaller businesses fail to thrive, and all we have left in the world are the major commercial markets, then our economy becomes overpriced and persons not making a white collar living will find it hard to survive in a global marketplace such as this.

[Daminc]

That's a nice sentiment Deb :cheers:

[RobSpectre]

Here's another retarded SERP to heap upon the pile:

"boston toyota (http://www.google.com/search?q=boston+toyota)"

Yahoo.com sitting at number two. No sub page, no regionally specific spot... Yup, main page.

If I have to fight Yahoo's link popularity, maybe I should just go buy Disney.

[ihelpyou]

Now how can that be?

It's the 'root' of yahoo. The description listed is 'some other' page in Yahoo. I thought the description was suppose to match the url being listed?

wow.

[witchblade]

Wow. That really does go to show how bad this update has been... there is no possible way that Yahoo is relevant to that keyphrase.

I can't believe the latest algo change hasn't been rolled back yet. This is a lot worse than the Florida update. Good sites found themselves dropped, but the top sites were still relevant. This Austin update is beyond words. If the goal is to drive business to Adwords, then Google is going the way of Overture and just tied a noose around its neck. I don't want my results based on the highest bidder, I want my results based on the best fit for my search.

[RobSpectre]

Yeah. I'm getting flashbacks of AltaVista circa 1998.

This is right out.

[qwerty]

I'm getting different results, and it's kind of a mixed bag. Yahoo is there, but it's coming up at #11. The number 2 site is very relevant: a Toyota dealership in Boston. #1 is a PDF that G has somehow given the title "Portland, OR" but it does have the words "Boston" and "Toyota" in the text a number of times.

#3 is irrelevant, but 4-8 are pretty good.

[respree]

Originally posted by witchblade
If the goal is to drive business to Adwords, then Google is going the way of Overture and just tied a noose around its neck. I don't want my results based on the highest bidder, I want my results based on the best fit for my search.

GoogleGuy says there is no correlation (http://www.markcarey.com/googleguy-says/archives/discuss-google-results-not-affected-by-advertising.html)

[ihelpyou]

The thing is; If a user types in that phrase, what the heck are they looking for?

All I can think of is 'toyota's in boston'. They are looking for toyota dealers, etc, right?

So great, the number one listing is relevant, but what about the rest? Are they dealers? (i have not looked)

[RobSpectre]

Yeah, the number one site is my client so I'm not hurting in this particular instance. But, the fact that it is there is very curious.

I did eventually see the results qwerty is talking about (which were the old results). I'm not sure if this is necessarily significant to the rest of the index, but certainly an oddity that was worth sharing with everyone else.

As far as the phrase itself, generally speaking metro name + brand is where I've found the most users who are going to buy a new car. Naturally, I'm comfortable with the Boston Globe's car section coming up in the results as well... But not sure that the main Yahoo page makes any sense. ;)

[respree]

Originally posted by ihelpyou
Now how can that be?

It's the 'root' of yahoo. The description listed is 'some other' page in Yahoo. I thought the description was suppose to match the url being listed?

wow.

Actually, it does match.

While there's no mention of Toyota on today's Yahoo homepage, if you click on the cached version of G results, you'll see there was a Toyota ad running at the time the page was indexed.

My guess is that ad, combined with the word Boston and Y!'s PR is what got them there.

[Webmaster T]

Originally posted by respree
GoogleGuy says there is no correlation (http://www.markcarey.com/googleguy-says/archives/discuss-google-results-not-affected-by-advertising.html) He'd like us all to believe that but I don't for a minute! I've seen way too many SERPs where ads either AdWords or Overture or internal ads on being placed on large providers are definitely helping. He's right in that it isn't intentional or a conspiracy but you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out how a page where the word isn't there is suddenly in the results. Just look at the G cache and you too often see an ad with those words! The Boston Toyota discussion is a perfect example of this. Why the heck G is indexing it's own ads on sites using Adsense is a question I just don't know the answer to and I will give them the benefit of the doubt but the longer this continues the more suspicious I become.

[respree]

Originally posted by Webmaster T
He'd like us all to believe that but I don't for a minute! I've seen way too many SERPs where ads either AdWords or Overture or internal ads on being placed on large providers are definitely helping.

Wouldn't you agree is a luck of the draw? Ads are continually rotating. G takes a 'snapshot' of a page when it indexes it and whatever is on that page at the time of its index gets read. What if it were a Lexus ad that was on there at that split second when the page got indexed, don't you think 'Toyota' SERP would look a bit different?

[only1f]

Anyone else get another big jump this last weekend? Every site that I had lost in the last few months in now back where they were or even in better positioning. They had slowing came back the last few weeks with Brandy, but now they are all back.

I hope everyone is having the fortune I am having.