Whassup with FRAMES & search engines???

[Rockrz]

How does the use of frames REALLY affect positioning in search engines?

I've recently heard that many major engines aren't looking at meta tags and/or using spiders. I heard that most are taking the easy way out & are now using Open Directory Project to update their databse.

Is this true? If so, is it OK to use frames now?

Tanks,
Rockrz

[Blue]

Hi Rockrz!

In just addressing your "is it ok to use frames?" question, you might want to take a look at this (http://www.ihelpyouservices.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=702&highlight=frames) thread as it gives some very good arguments as to why or why not. And there are many other threads in these forums as well, if you do a search.

Hope this helps,

[ihelpyou]

I am not sure what you mean by the "easy" way out. Nothing has changed with dmoz. You should be in it because of AOL, Netscape and Google. Same as aways. The robots of the engines still spider pages and rank accordingly and they still index pages based on their spidering.

[Sharon & Roy]

Originally posted by Rockrz

How does the use of frames REALLY affect positioning in search engines?

Hello Rockrz,

The use of frames has NO adverse effect on your positioning in search engines at all, NONE.

I've recently heard that many major engines aren't looking at meta tags

If you mean by "looking" at meta tags, that they take the keywords in the Keywords Meta Tag into consideration when ranking your page, then, YES, you heard right, they are not, except for Inktomi.

and/or using spiders.

ALL search engines use spiders. If they did not, then they would NOT be search engines.

I heard that most are taking the easy way out & are now using Open Directory Project to update their databse. Is this true?

NO. This is NOT true and will never be true.

If so, is it OK to use frames now?

It has ALWAYS been OK to use frames.

[Rockrz]

Thanks for the info.
My site, http://www.AustinSings.com/, uses frames & I've been able to become the top site for Karaoke entertainment in Texas.

One reason is that most sites in my state that deal with Karaoke are primarily free-based sites (Yahoo, ect.) and most of them are not using Meta Tags. I would also suspect they do not submit their sites to all the major search engines on a monthly basis, like I do.

I guess in my case I picked an easy catagory to get to the top of.
I'm starting to do web sites & hosting as a side business, and I need to stay on top of the search engine wars.

I'm currently using Dynamic Submission 2000 (professional version) for search engine submission. I'm thinking about going to WebPosition ****.

Any thoughts on this?

[Hope]

Rockrz,

Frames can be a pain to get into search engines. If you do not use the <no frames> tag, spiders cannot read your site.

There is no reason at all to submit monthly to search engines. If you are currently in the search engines, then don't submit. If you are not in a good position in the search engines, then you can make some changes and resubmit.

Once you are in a directory, do not submit anymore. It will be considered spamming.

I would not recommend using any software to submit. Many search engines will not accept submissions from these programs and many others consider these programs spam.

You should hand submit your site to only a few select major search engines and local search engines. It takes very little time to submit and is well worth the effort.

I am one of the few people around who feel that meta tags still make a difference. Search engines still read them. They just do not hold much weight in them. However, they will fault you for bad meta tags. You meta tags look like spam. I would recomend that you thin then out drastically.

Your code on your site is bad. You need to run your code through a code validator and fix it up.

Heidi

[ihelpyou]

Yes, Hope is very correct. If you were going for something more competitive even like .... Karaoke entertainment ... you would not rank at all. That term is not very competitive either. Read up in here about how to rank well in the engines.

Remember this, content is Most important of all and your site really does not have any. Especially on the front page.

[Rockrz]

Do you have any references that back up your claims? I've been using my submission software on several sites, and have had pretty good success (even with a couple of Geocities sites)

I put my Meta Tags together using recommendations from the WebPosition **** knowledgebase. Do these guys not know what they're talking about? Who would be better than WebPosition ****? They say you should re-submit monthly in order to maintain positioning. Unless you can direct me to more credible information, I'll stick with their recommendations.

If you can show me specific companies that are in the business that recommend what you are saying, I'll be more inclined to take a closer look at your claims. I usually don't put much stock in what individuals say on the net because they all say something different.

I know my code isn't all that great due to the fact that my WYSIWYG editor leaves stuff in the code that it shouldn't when I make changes. I'll be cleaning things up shortly. I used WYSIWYG to learn how to write HTML. I know a lot more about it now, I've just been too busy doing sites for money to stop & clean up my own site, which isn't making me much at all. I works, & I get a lot of hits locally. I'm even a minor celebrity in my town because of the site. It even works in Netscape 4.0, so I haven't been too worried about it.

[Advisor]

Is WPG really saying to submit monthly still these days? I'd be surprised if that were true. You might check to be sure you have the latest info from them.

Jill

[Spider Man]

Hi,

If you can show me specific companies that are in the business that recommend what you are saying, I'll be more inclined to take a closer look at your claims. I usually don't put much stock in what individuals say on the net because they all say something different.


Most of the people here are in the search engine business in one way or another. The submit every month regardless approach is a very old approach that possibly worked back then. Submitting monthly is seen by the search engines as both pointless and a waste of their resources, feel free to check my signature or ask one of the big search engines. Or look at things the other way round, how does telling the search engines that your site exists help if they already know about it? If particular pages haven't been crawled after a month then fine, but anything else just doesn't add up.

[Hope]

You want a site to tell you that we know what we are talking about?

Here you go.

1.) Search Engine Watch, by Danny Sullivan. This is the "bible" of search engine information. Danny has been doing this longer than anyone. http://www.searchenginewatch.com/webmasters/index.html

2.) Spider Food, by JK Bowman. This site tells you all about spider based engines. JK Bowman has been in the SEO business for many years. http://spider-food.net/meta-tags.html

I hope these provide you with the information you are looking for. WPG uses techniques that have been outdated for over a year. Things change way too fast for them to update the software everything there is a change in policy at the search engines.

BTW, those of us who have answered your question are professionals. We all do this professionally. We do know what we are talking about. You can go to any SEO forum and get the exact same answers as you have gotten here. The purpose of these forums is to help each other out. If you don't trust what we are saying, then don't ask the questions.

BTW, ODP was the "big" index about 18 months ago. Right now it is Overture. Your information is very old. Read the forums and learn what is going on now.

Heidi

[Rockrz]

Heidi, I apologize for causing all this trouble.
It won't happen again.

[ihelpyou]

hey Rockrz, you are not causing any problems. It's just that the few members who posted in here do know what they are talking about, AND, I'm not including myself. :)

You did ask us our opinion and we gave it to you. The knowledge posted is very true and is known by the professionals. WPG is a member in here (Susan Goodson) and says in one of the threads that they do not say to submit monthly anymore. No one will say that except all those so-called "submission" companies on the web who charge monthly to submit to a kazillion FFA sites.

All I ask is that you read as much as you can from in here. MANY knowledgeable people are here who follow the search engines daily. You can learn a bunch from this group.

[Mel]

Hi Rockrz

Good to hear that your site is doing well. You can generally trust the people here when they tell you something regarding SEO as many are professionals and are "in the busines" for profit (some of them top professionals). If you have any qualms about thier credentials look up their rankings for their own sites, and you will see that many of the members here rank well across the board on very competitive keywords.

It is not necessary to submit your site monthly, and at any rate submission software will not get you into any of the directories or AltaVista, since they only accept manual submissions. Inclusion in the directories is very important since most SEs spider them regularly and give a ranking boost for sites included in directories.

Regarding you meta tag construction, I would suggest that you go to your competitors higest ranking sites and view their meta tags to see what is working and what is not. You may also check their meta tags against what WPG is recommending.

ODP listings are used by many search engines, but in addition to their spidered information. Many more search engines are including data from Overture, but this is not because they have better information but because the search engines get paid for using it.

[Rockrz]

Thanks, guys.

Sounds like I need to check out Overture.
Is that .com, .net, ect?
I'll search & see what I come up with.

[Advisor]

Overture is what was previously known as GoTo and it's now at www.overture.com. However, it's a whole other can of worms as rankings go to the highest bidder and you pay per each click to your Web site. Some people swear by it, others don't feel it's worth the money. It all depends on the keywords your bidding on, and your target audience. It's really not search engine optimization in the traditional sense of the phrase, however. But certainly something you may want to look at. Especially if you don't know much about optimizing a site for high rankings. It's a great way to get pseudo high rankings with very little effort.

Jill

[Hope]

Rockrz,

Sorry to sound so harsh. I have seen many people asking for help and then call those who help liars. I find it very frustrating. I should have re-read what I wrote before posting it.

Heidi

[Susan Goodson]

Actually, with all due respect, you are incorrect Hope. I can appreciate your frustration with most low quality search engine optimization software. However, WebPosition is constantly updated with the latest format changes in each engine/directory and with any information regarding the top ranking pages of each search engine, as well as any new "rules" regarding page design, link popularity, theming, and other developments in the search engine world.

WebPosition ****'s Submitter has not been and is not being discriminated against by any search engines that it supports. We constantly monitor for things like this, by doing test submissions and site positioning, and going on customer feedback. We do not recommend weekly submissions. We have always recommended that users only resubmit pages where there have been changes made to that page, and only if they are not willing to wait for the changes to be spidered in natural course.

[ihelpyou]

Yes, sometimes we seem to lump all software into the same boat. :) Most have a bad name so this gives WPG a bad rap also. I do know that companies like WPG and Topdog do work hard at making sure the software is up to date. Sometimes, things may fall thru the cracks but all in all, those two are pretty good at keeping things up to date.

[Rockrz]

I checked out Overture, and I'm still the top listed site for Texas, as well as my local area (Austin). It a good thing Karaoke related key words are not vey competitive.

After viewing this site, I've seen a few things I need to change on my site to make it mo better. I'll be gunning for top national rankings. Why not?

Heidi, it was my fault. I thought this may have been like some of the other internet/web design boards around where all people seem to do is contradict each other, leaving the average user confused.

I'll definitely be hanging out, since there actually are prefessionals here. It's totally my style to seek out those that are sucessful in something, and try to learn from them.

It's how I've learned what little dab of web design stuff I been able to learn so far. (like, slightly more than your average guy on the street)

I got my first PC a little over two years ago. My wife literally had to teach me how to turn it on. I even un-installed the printer software once while trying to print something.

I will not give up though. That's pretty much my onlt redeeming quality. I always keep trying.

Thanks guys!
HAPPY NEW YEARS!!!

[ihelpyou]

Good for you Rockrz! Oh boy can I remember the struggle of my first year on the net..... :rolleyes:

BTW, you should put your url in your signature so people can visit you.

[Rockrz]

Hey Doug. Thanks.

I'll get on that signature thing right now....

[Advisor]

don't pet the sweaty things :green:

Great advice!

Jill