New Annual Fee at Yahoo!

[Advisor]

Holy Moly...did you guys hear this?

http://www.pandia.com/sw-2001/68-yahoo.html

Thanks to Pandia for the heads up.

Jill

[ihelpyou]

Yeah, I noticed that awhile ago but did not feel it worthy of a post or my time. :D

The value of a Yahoo listing went down with the Overture partnership and now surely it goes down further. Can we imagine how many good, high quality, content oriented, information sites now will opt to NOT pay the fee to be listed? Quite a few. That is extremely expensive. I can see a $50 renewal fee but a $299 renewal fee? sheesh.

Half of all sites in the directory now are the ones who get referrals from Yahoo. The other half get zilch from them. It is a tossup. So why in the heck would sites pay $300 PER year for this? Boggles the mind.

[Advisor]

I just finished the whole article and am reading the comments in Webmaster World (http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum35/555.htm). Very interesting opinions.

I'm not sure yet what I think all this means. For one thing, the thought that they'd actually remove listings that don't pay the renewal fee, regardless of how good the listing might be, is a pretty scary thought. Scary in terms of the quality of their index. But also, I can't imagine them actually having the personnel to take the time to go through and delete those listings that don't continue to pay. I really wonder if it will ever happen. A few things could occur...

1) The backlash from ths could be so negative that they change the pricing or decide not to do it all together.

2) They stay firm with it, but then don't have the manpower to actually remove listings, or

3) They realize how stupid it would be to remove quality listings from their site, and simply leave them.

Those are my initial thoughts. Still, it will be interesting to see how it plays out this year!

Jill

[Farhan]

This is ridiculous

What are they trying to do?
I hope this is the last bad news of 2001

[Advisor]

Ackk! I just realized reading more in WW forum that yahoo will be charging your credit card each year for the renewal! Well, all I can say to that is #$&@)@(@&$

That most definitely does not work for me.

I guess I'll be rethinking whether or not I submit to yahoo now also. Or alternatively, I'll have to use my client's credit card, not mine. This is very troublesome.

Jill

[ihelpyou]

Yep, yep, and yep!!

Very troubling.

The thing that gets me more than anything else is that they kept everything quite and then Announced that.... "oh, BTW, this annual renewal fee starts tomorrow."

That is unbelievable. They care NOT about anyone but their bottom line. The SEO's that have religiously promoted a Yahoo listing to their clients are very screwed with this deal. Jill, you have it right,... you will have to use your client's card to submit, otherwise Yahoo will simply continue to charge YOUR card. Screw the SEO's out there.

I have always told clients about a Yahoo directory listing in the past and told them they could submit to yahoo if they wished. NOW, I do not think I will even mention them. My client's are small business owners. Most would not be able to justify this kind of outragious yearly fee for a directory that MIGHT give you some referrals. Then again, it MIGHT not.

[Mel]

As far as I am concerned Yahoo has just gone morally bankrupt, and I hope sincerely that the financial equivalent happens soon.

While they are out buying 400 million dollar companies, they are asking their customers to pay many times more for reduced content and relevancy.

Will they continue to be a traffic generator? I really can't say for sure but will predict that next New Years eve will see a different Y! - either they will change their ways and start a crash course on customer relationships or they will continue to shrink until even a free listing is not worth the time and trouble.

[Hope]

This is nuts. There are very few small businesses out there that can afford this. My fear is that they are going to start removing companies that have not paid the fee in the past. That will make sure they have to resubmit and pay every year.

[Advisor]

Morally bankrupt says it all. The only way to even know about this is if you went to submit a site and then noticed that it suddenly said "recurring annual fee." Then you'd have to click on the link and read the legalese (and understand it) to even know that they were going to automatically charge your credit card each year. The ultimate in sleaze.

I just did a news search and there are no news stories out about this yet. Pandia may get out on the Moreover newsfeeds sometime later today, I forget it they're on them or not. Guess I have a topic for this week's Rank Write. The word needs to get out, and get out quickly. I wish RW was today so I could scoop the other search sites that will be certainly be abuzz with this! I haven't received today's SearchDay yet. Wonder if Chris will mention it.

Jill

[Advisor]

Well, I just left a message at Yahoo's media relations phone number and told them I'm doing a story on their recurring fee thingee this week. What are the chances that they'll call me back?

Would certainly be nice to get their side of the story...

Jill

[newriver]

I hate to say it, but I would do the same thing if I were them. They are losing money, and are searching for a way to stay in the search engine business.

They will get my renewal fees, and I will be happy to pay them. If I were them I would institute a system were all new sites have to do the renewal fee, and grandfather all old sites in permanently so they do not lose the quality directory sites they have now. This new system should auto-delete unrenewed sites every year so they do not have to manually delete them.
<edit> just read pandia, it looks like they are grandfathering older sites.</edit>

[Mel]

Whether or not the increased fees at Yahoo! are worth it will depend on the countinuation of the size and quality of their index and the traffic it generates.

There is no question that at this point in time Yahoo! is a great traffic generator (especially if you can get by the quirky editors and the strange titles and description they seem to like) but my question is what will the effect of this rather expensive (ten times higher over a ten year period than anyone else) modification be on the quality of their index?

If they do not grandfather the existing sites by next year they will have lost perhaps 50% of thier indexed sites, and if they do grandfather them it seems unfair to the newcomers.

Once/if the quality and quantity of their site begins to decline it will trigger a chain reaction resulting in fewer and fewer renewals and thus fewer and fewer searches ..........

I don't buy the argument that they need themoney to stay in business. They just agreed to pay 440 million to buy a company in an unrelated business - doesn't seem to me that they have much trouble coming up with enoug to pay the salaries.

[MakeMeTop]

Hi everyone - and Happy New Year!!! :cheers:

I see lots of fun and games happened during the break - but this is one of the least surprising (I think I predicted it) - now wait for L$ to do something similar.

A long time ago I saw that an annual subscription to content providers was an obvious solution to all search portal cashflow woes and switched to a subscription model for my own services. This means that all these fees are already covered for my clients (as long as they are happy to continue to pay my subscription - which they are). I lose a little more margin - but nothing I hadn't budgeted for and my clients will remain in Yahoo. If the ROI isn't worth it then I will let them drop out - if it works then I'll continue paying. I'm actually surprised that they haven't introduced a re-review for existing listings - which would be a surefire way to raise another load of dough!

I don't like it - but with over 100,000 visits from Yahoo on my busiest sites over the holidays - I can't ignore them.

[ihelpyou]

Welcome back Barry! Happy New Year! :cheers:

[newriver]

I may be reading it wrong, but it looks like Yahoo is grandfathering currently listed sites, and sites submitted before December 27th. All submissions after December 27th have to pay the renewal fee.

[ihelpyou]

Yes. Sites already in before that date do not have to renew. New sites submitted do.

I can see a recurring annual fee BUT not the full price. Outragious. I cannot morally recommend clients to do this as it is a 50/50 shot if the site will get good traffic from yahoo as it is.

[Kal]

What a shocker! :eek: Can you believe the search engine roller coaster we've been on for the past few months? Seems they have all pushed the panic button and are desperately trying to raise cash.

Like Doug, I think a $50 renewal fee would've been fairer. But I am not so worried about the new fee as much as the sneaky automatic annual credit card debit they have slipped in to their terms and conditions. Nice article on this in your lastest Rank Write Jill!

I too have been using my own card to pay for Yahoo submissions on behalf of clients, but there's no way I'm going to give it out to Yahoo if they are using a direct debit on it each year. BUT, the problem is that I now have to ask my clients for their credit card number if I want to look after their Yahoo submissions. I can't see too many of them liking that! And it is too risky letting them do their own submissions, even with coaching, as their resulting listings will suffer from lack of expertise.

I just don't know how to approach this one...

[ihelpyou]

Do like i do. Simply let the client submit to yahoo using their own credit card. You can tell them what category and even give them the description to submit. Out of your hands that way. Everyone is happy and safe. :)

BTW, Happy New Year! :cheers:

[Advisor]

Originally posted by ihelpyou
Do like i do. Simply let the client submit to yahoo using their own credit card. You can tell them what category and even give them the description to submit. Out of your hands that way. Everyone is happy and safe. :) Sounds good in theory, but most clients I know could still mess it up! And beyond that, most clients are PAYING me to submit for them so it doesn't really seem fair to make them do it!

You're right though, Kal, about having to get a cc number. That really bites! I'm definitely going to rethink my Yahoo strategy anyway. May not even be worth it for many clients.

You do all know, of course, that it's only a matter of time before LookSmart copies this...that is, if LS is still around once Ezula gets through with it.

J

[ihelpyou]

That is true if your client thinks they are paying you for Yahoo. In my case, they know up front that I will not submit them to yahoo. :)

[Advisor]

LOL...well, mine pay BIG bucks for directory submissions alone sometimes, so I kinda, sorta, gotta do it!

J

[Mel]

One way of taking care of the automatic renewals is to let them pay through something like fidesic, where you can generate an invoice and the customer can then pay either by electronic check or by credit card. This gets you out of the credit card loop and has the added advantage that those who do not wish to use thier CCs on the web have an out also.

[Kal]

Doug - you're brave, letting your clients submit to Yahoo directly. I just don't think it's worth the risk, even giving them the category and description exactly. As Jill said, some of them could get it wrong or use some misguided poetic license while doing so. Also the fact that I charge them extra to get the submission right in the first place!

Maybe I'll just get clients to pay me for 2 year's in advance and deal with the cc issue in-house. Good idea re the fidesic thing Mel, but does Yahoo accept such payments and does it work for non-U.S. clients? Hey I wonder if Yahoo accept PayPal payments? That would be great. <edit>off to investigate</edit>.

[Kal]

Well it looks like credit card is the only way to pay Yahoo! at this point. Following some research I've come up with a bit if info - their FAQ "How do I change the credit card used to bill my site" claims:

----------------
After you submit your site, you will receive an email from Yahoo! that will include an order ID for your submission. Please use the order ID as a reference for billing-related questions only, and contact our Customer Care department at bizex-billing@yahoo-inc.com to have your credit card information updated.
----------------

So I guess in theory you could do the initial submission and then give your client the ID number and ask them to switch credit card numbers to their own in time for future debits. Think I will go this route. Not sure how to cancel the automatic debit altogether - might send Yahoo an email on that one...

[ihelpyou]

So, is Yahoo saying if you wish to update/change or cancel your directory listing, that your only option is to email Yahoo to do this? Oh my. Say you wish to change credit cards or your credit card expired and you now have a different number. You have to email Yahoo with the new information. NOT very secure.

[litmania.com]

The $300 initial fee to consider a site was unfair. The current move is outrageous.

As mentioned in the initial article (thanks) there are many sites which have commercial links, but are not simply around to make money.

I have a content-packed movie site with affiliate links. After having procurred advice from various sources and have tried to submit it via Yahoo!'s free submission method for over a year, I've realised the only way to list it in Yahoo will be via their paid submission method.

But I'm only generating a few dollars a week, how can I afford $300 per annum? I suppose I'll have to give up on Yahoo or add pop-unders to my site.

Yahoo have reall shot themselves in the foot with the Overture listings and now this. More and more people are just going to go straight to Google.

I hope all those webmasters who have links to Yahoo's homepage from their sites will no longer do so.

[MsSearch]

Yahoo is making my head spin....when a company pays their yearly $300 fee to remain listed in Yahoo, do they at least get an opportunity to change their description (as part of the $300 fee) or would that company have to also pay for a description change?

Yahoo = :barf+: IMO

[Alan Perkins]

To those that have done the research already...

Is the recurring fee guaranteed to be $299? - i.e. if Yahoo put their prices up within the next year, do you get a benefit by having "subscribed" at a lower price?

Each time you re-pay, are you re-subjected to the quality test? Until now $299 did not guarantee inclusion, only expedited review. What does it buy now? Are you guaranteed re-inclusion after one year, or can you auto-pay $299 and still be dropped???

So far, I see no reason why you shouldn't just cancel after each year and re-submit with whatever title, description and category happens to suit you at that time. But if once you were in you were in, for good, at that price, there could be a benefit to allowing auto-renewal.

[ihelpyou]

No one knows Alan. Yahoo is being very vague about how this is going to work. They only thing that seems to be fact right now is that once they renew you, you get another review, and from what I can gather, they can drop you on that review and even keep your renewal monies to boot!

All very sketchy and not good business practices at all, IMO.

[Advisor]

Is the recurring fee guaranteed to be $299? - i.e. if Yahoo put their prices up within the next year, do you get a benefit by having "subscribed" at a lower price? Well, I don't think anything is guaranteed. Currently, they are saying that you will pay a recurring annual fee of $299. I have not completely read their terms of service, however, and for all I know they have the right to change this at any time they want. I imagine that they couldn't just charge your credit card a different amount, however, without first having you agree to the new terms in some manner.Each time you re-pay, are you re-subjected to the quality test? Yes, according to their TOS, you are subject to re-review. This is a good thing, in my mind, because it could then stop the bait and switchers. Until now $299 did not guarantee inclusion, only expedited review. What does it buy now? Same thing.Are you guaranteed re-inclusion after one year, or can you auto-pay $299 and still be dropped??? You are not guaranteed re-inclusion after the first year, only re-review. I would certainly hope that they couldn't charge you the 2nd time and then drop you! That would be pretty outrageous.So far, I see no reason why you shouldn't just cancel after each year and re-submit with whatever title, description and category happens to suit you at that time.That may certainly be a good strategy if you had a "bad" listing the first year. However, please remember that you don't control your category or your listing in the first place. No matter how you slice it, you're at the whim of the editors. You may end up right back with the same description and category you originally had, even if that's not what you requested.

I think this whole thing would be easier to swallow if they simply allowed a bit of tweaking when the review period came up.

Jill

[Alan Perkins]

Nice answers Jill!

BECAUSE the fee is the same each year, one might presume that the same work was re-done each year by the editors, i.e. site review, category determination, writing of description, approval of inclusion, etc. i.e. your description and category might change anyway! The benefit to cancelling and re-submitting would then be

1) You would be in control of your finances
2) You would have an input to your ongoing description and category
3) You would force the editors to do some work rather than rubber-stamp the status quo

However...

No matter how you slice it, you're at the whim of the editors.I think that says it all. :)

[Advisor]

Plus, it's yet to be determined how easy/hard it will be to cancel your listing.

Someone in one of the other forums mentioned something about having to fax in your cancelation. I don't know where they saw that or if it's true, but it would be quite a pain in the neck if that's the only method.

Hopefully Yahoo will make things easier than that, but with their arrogance, I wouldn't bet on it.

Jill

[ihelpyou]

You are not guaranteed re-inclusion after the first year, only re-review. I would certainly hope that they couldn't charge you the 2nd time and then drop you! That would be pretty outrageous.
Think about this a moment. When you First submit to Yahoo, you pay first! Then they review you for inclusion. NO guarantees. Why would they change this upon renewal? They will not. They will not give a site "advanced" warning that they are charging your card again. They will not "review" your site first, and then tell you to pay OR tell you that they will not renew you. They WILL take your money for renewal, and then they will either drop you or include you. This is how I read things and this is exactly why everything about this NEW Yahoo thing is very vague and simply not right.

[Alan Perkins]

Plus, it's yet to be determined how easy/hard it will be to cancel your listing.Single-payment credit cards?

For example (not recommended - I haven't checked these people out at all) have a look here:

http://www2.discovercard.com/shopcenter/deskshop/main.shtml

[ihelpyou]

Okay. How is everyone handling the yahoo questions right now of your clients? How are you answering? What answers are you giving? How the heck can we answer anything right now?

We have no clue about exactly how this is going to work. Should we let the listing drop? and then resubmit? If we wish it to drop, how do we do this?

If we want the listing to remain, what happens? Does Yahoo recharge you automatically, AND then do the review? Or do they review first? and then charge? Upon renewal, does Yahoo let you Tweak the description? If not, what the heck happens?

Too much speculation about all of this for my blood. Until we know Exactly what is going to happen, it's impossible to give clients any answers about this. I tell them now... "I don't know yet as Yahoo has not said squat".

[Advisor]

6.0 PARTICIPATION

6.1 If you wish to discontinue participation in the Yahoo! Express program, you must send a notice to Yahoo as set forth in Section 11, "Notices," below. Please state that you wish to withdraw your site from Yahoo! Express. To avoid your credit card being billed for the Recurring Annual Fee, requests for withdrawal must be received by Yahoo! at least five (5) business days before the end of the year that you intend to be your last year of participation. The "end of the year" is defined as 365 days from the date that your web site was added to the Yahoo! Directory as noted on the confirmation emailed to you at that time. Once Yahoo! receives such notification from you, your participation in the Yahoo! Express program will cease and your listing will be removed at the end of the year. If you request that your listing be removed before the end of a year for which you have pre-paid the Recurring Annual Fee, you agree that Yahoo! will not be required to refund any portion of such fee.

Section 9 goes on to give you the email address you can use for cancellation.

Still don't know for sure about what you're saying, Doug. It does make sense given the arrogant way they do everything else, but it would surely get many up in arms if they review you for the second time, charge your cc, then cancel you. I think it would be like the first time, you'd at least get an appeal. However, I didn't see this in the terms.

Jill

[ihelpyou]

if they review you for the second time, charge your cc, then cancel you.
If you do nothing, and your annual renewal date comes up, your statement should read like this:

"if they charge your cc, Then review you for the second time, then cancel you."

They will Not review before charging. They might give you an appeal period, but they will charge first. Ya see, very vague.

[Alan Perkins]

You've forced me to do the research. Now I've read the Yahoo TOS.

It says that your site will be re-reviewed each year. The only reason to review the site again is to determine its continued inclusion. In other words, it may be dropped. It would be dropped if it no longer met Yahoo's Minimum Site Criteria or other any other criteria Yahoo chose to apply.

Now, the question of whether you pay anything if you are dropped. You do, because you are paying for a review. And it is non-refundable.

All this is plain in the TOS.

[ihelpyou]

Yes. That is the way I read it also. But, if dropped, do you get an appeal, or do you simply lose your money? If you lose your money, this means you actually paid $600 for one year only. If you do get an appeal and still are dropped, you still paid $600 for one year.

[Advisor]

It doesn't seem to say anything anywhere yet about appealing if you're dropped after your yearly review. It would only seem fair, but the rest of their terms are not very fair, so I wouldn't say for sure that you do. This is something they are definitely going to have to deal with eventually.

Jill

[ihelpyou]

One thing is for sure. Those of you who submit your clients to Yahoo will have to keep track of when the year is up and then ask your client if they wish to be re-included and make sure you tell Yahoo by 5 days, otherwise they will recharge you again.

sheesh. I'll pass.

[Kal]

Originally posted by ihelpyou
One thing is for sure. Those of you who submit your clients to Yahoo will have to keep track of when the year is up and then ask your client if they wish to be re-included and make sure you tell Yahoo by 5 days, otherwise they will recharge you again.

sheesh. I'll pass.

Not quite true Doug - I sent Yahoo the following via their feedback form:

----------------
Is there a way to cancel the recurring annual direct debit for
Biz Express after the initial submission? Or is there a way to pay
for the recurring charge other than a credit card?
----------------

and got back the following email today:

----------------
Thank you for writing to Yahoo! Billing.

Thank you for your interest in Yahoo!'s Express Program.

You will receive a renewal email 30 days before the recurring annual charge to your contact email address on file.

We only accept payment via credit cards (Visa, MasterCard, and American Express only). If you have a Visa or MasterCard Check Card that debits from your checking account, this may be used in lieu of a traditional credit card.

We DO NOT accept payments via check or money order.

Thank you again for contacting Yahoo! Customer Care.

Regards,

Yahoo! Customer Care

For assistance with all Yahoo! services please visit:

http://help.yahoo.com/
-----------------------

So it looks like you'll have 30 days notice re renewal - which (hopefully) will give you enough time to cancel and/or change your cc number if needed.

[Advisor]

Good job, Kal! Thanks for the info.

J

[MsSearch]

Quoted from Search Engine Watch by Danny Sullivan
Article - Yahoo Now Charging Annual Listing Fee
<quote>
What Happens At Renewal Time?

The poorly worded Yahoo Express Service Agreement has caused concern with some that once listed with Yahoo, your credit card will be eternally billed each year, on your anniversary date. Digging into the terms, they do say that as long as the agreement is cancelled at least five business days before your anniversary date, there will be no additional annual charge.

More specifically, Yahoo said that you won't have to remember to do this, if you wish to cancel. Instead, shortly before your anniversary date, you'll receive an email reminding you that it is time to renew. You'll be able to cancel that way or change your credit card details, in case your original card has expired.

In addition, Yahoo will give you the opportunity to change your listing, on your renewal date. If your site has altered in purpose, products or other ways, you'll be able to request that your listing be updated.
</quote>

for whole article, click here (http://searchenginewatch.com/sereport/02/01-yahoo.html)
---------------------------------------------------

This clears up some confusion...

[Kal]

Thanks for the heads up Ms S. Talk about confusing - that's more of a story than the fee increase! I'd hate to be manning the feedback phones at Yahoo! this week :D

[ihelpyou]

So why can't Yahoo explain in detail what is going to happen if you do this or that?

The above is good info but does not explain things completely. What if you wish to change credit cards? What do you do?

[Advisor]

Now if Yahoo had simply returned my phone call when I was writing MY article, I would have know all this too! Interesting how Danny has all the contacts!

The rest of the article is also interesting. I hadn't had a chance to read it yet today. Another thing mentioned is that if you use Yahoo Express in a non-commercial category, you don't have to pay a recurring fee, just a one time fee. The recurring fee is only for commercial categories.

J

[Advisor]

Doug, the full article explains everything.

Jill

[ihelpyou]

Yep. Just read the article. Could they be more clear? Don't know. Anyway, I think it stinks.

They are not even real clear on a non-commercial submission. You would think as big as yahoo is they could explain things in English very clearly so that no one would have any doubt as to how this will work.

[Advisor]

You're right. If they would be clear and up front to begin with, they wouldn't look so bad. Instead, it takes reporters to dig the info out of them. Very dumb.

J

[Alan Perkins]

I'm looking forward to seeing how the rankings are affected by yet another payment model. Now, in the same category, we can have advertisers who have paid to be there, sites that have never paid to be there, sites that have only paid once to be there, and sites that are paying annually to be there. :rolleyes:

What does Ralph Nader make of that?

[ihelpyou]

I'm looking forward to seeing how the rankings are affected by yet another payment model. Now, in the same category, we can have advertisers who have paid to be there, sites that have never paid to be there, sites that have only paid once to be there, and sites that are paying annually to be there.

What does Ralph Nader make of that?
Yes. Good points. Ralph Nader could have a hey day with many business models on the net right now. It's like, "what to do next"? "Who do I go after next"? Oh, the decisions.

[pageoneresults]

The annual fee is only charged for sites submitted on or after December 28, 2001. If you got listed before this, congratulations! You've escaped the annual fee. Yahoo! wouldn't say as much, but it is almost certain that sites submitted before December 28 have escaped the annual fee for legal reasons. After all, when they signed up, the listing fee was essentially presented as a one-time charge.