Bid Management Software [Archive] - SEO Best Practices Search Engine Forums

Alan Perkins

08-01-2002, 10:17/10:17AM

I wouldn't characterize it as good... :)

It wasn't so much the bug as the nature of the bug: transmitting private and sensitive information (not sure whether securely or not) and leaving it unencrypted in an insecure place for all to see.

I was also not impressed by the brush-off response: to paraphrase, "programmers make mistakes". That's right, they do, but only in what they are told to do. Or have they run amok? If so, that would be even more worrying.

i.e. what was the "bug" exactly? Harvesting private user names and passwords, or storing them insecurely, or both?

ppcman

08-01-2002, 13:23/01:23PM

Our company has created some new bid management software called PPC Pro. You can take a look at at http://www.ppcmanagement.com . If anyone has any questions, let me know.

Alan Perkins

08-01-2002, 13:28/01:28PM

Welcome to the forums ppcman! :hi:

Thanks for the tip.

Alan Perkins

08-01-2002, 17:50/05:50PM

Originally posted by ppcman
If anyone has any questions, let me know.

Client side (i.e. EXE) or server side (i.e. ASP)?
What security implications are you aware of and what measures have you taken?
What is your Unique Selling Point (USP)? What differentiates your service from the others mentioned here?

Kal

08-01-2002, 18:47/06:47PM

Thanks guys for all this info. I am going to go through all the programs over the next couple of days, as this campaign for my biggest client starts in a week. I'll let you know what program I end up using and also my thoughts on Gapster! Might be absent from the forums for a couple of days while I get this off the ground.

cheers :cheers:

Kal

08-01-2002, 19:20/07:20PM

Just an update on Gapster - went to their download page and it now says:

"Downloads are not currently available because of updates to the Gapster client. Please check back in a few hours".

hmmm - I wonder if they've pulled it because of Danny's article? Hopefully they are addressing the security issues and it will be back for download soon... :(

MakeMeTop

08-01-2002, 19:43/07:43PM

Yes - the reason I decided to buy the one I did was all about security. It runs on your server/PC - nothing is fed back to the other company. That clinched it for me (as well as a one off unlimited terms price - no monthly fee).

I'm sure other PPC software is also good - but security was my main concern. On the down-side - it is a bit European-centric.

Kal

08-01-2002, 19:47/07:47PM

Originally posted by ppcman
Our company has created some new bid management software called PPC Pro. You can take a look at at http://www.ppcmanagement.com . If anyone has any questions, let me know.

Hey ppcman - it is not clear from your page your bid update frequency. How often does the software check bids? Is the frequency controllable by the user or is this a feature for your future version? Also, can you upgrade from the 50 keyword version to the next level mid campaign?

And while I have the floor - does anyone have the URL for BidRight? I've heard others talking about this software but cannot find their URL so far. thanks!

<edit> answered my own question. Found BidRight on Nathan's site. Here if anyone is interested: http://store.yahoo.com/bidright/index.html. Also - Nathan has a lot of useful Bid Management Software reviews here: http://www.payperclicksearchengines.com/pay-per-click-search-engine-management-tools.shtml </edit>

ppcman

09-01-2002, 10:01/10:01AM

'Client side (i.e. EXE) or server side (i.e. ASP)?
What security implications are you aware of and what measures have you taken?
What is your Unique Selling Point (USP)? What differentiates your service from the others mentioned here?'

It is client side software run on your desktop. All of your Overture account information, keywords lists, etc can only be entered and viewed by you on your computer.

My Unique Selling Point is that the software is excellent for managing multiple accounts and clients' accounts. The program allows you to differentiate the accounts, send reports, and view bid information in an extremely organized fashion. Our software also has many other features that other applications don't offer and will continue to offer more. Honestly, you have to take the trial to see everything for yourself.

'Hey ppcman - it is not clear from your page your bid update frequency. How often does the software check bids? Is the frequency controllable by the user or is this a feature for your future version? Also, can you upgrade from the 50 keyword version to the next level mid campaign?'

The software can update bids every minute, but you are in complete control of how often you want it to check and update.

Yes, you can upgrade. Any purchase will be credited towards any future upgrades. So, if you buy the $89 version, you can upgrade to the $299 version for $210.

Keep those questions coming.

Alan Perkins

09-01-2002, 10:28/10:28AM

Hi Jed

Thanks for the replies. Stick around as you obviously have a lot of PPC knowledge.

I was looking at this page:

http://www.ppcmanagement.com/features.htm

and noticed this:

Say you have a group of 100 keywords you want to be at the #2 position with a bid cap of $1.00.

Is that no lower than #2, no higher than $1.00, otherwise no bid?

I've been thinking about the "poor" PPC provider. Imagine two people have your program and are bidding against each other for the same keyword, and both have the same minimum ranking (#2) and bid maximum ($1). A third bidder has significantly lower sights (say #3 and 80c). The first two bidders are set to update every minute.

What will be the effect on the PPC provider? The way I see it, over the course of 20 minutes, they will bid each other up from 81c to $1. The 99c bid will then be reduced to 81c and the process will repeat ad infinitum. Is this right?

What if this is multiplied many hundreds of times across users and keywords?

I understand this is not your problem but I think the PPC providers will have to do something about it and that will make it your problem. :)

ppcman

09-01-2002, 11:01/11:01AM

'Is that no lower than #2, no higher than $1.00, otherwise no bid?'

No, the program shoots to get you in the #2 position but doesn't bid over $1.00. If it cannot achieve the #2 position while staying below the cap of 1.00, it will find the next best position. So if #1 were at 1.20, #2 at 1.19, and #3 at .80, it would grab the #3 position at .81.

'What will be the effect on the PPC provider? The way I see it, over the course of 20 minutes, they will bid each other up from 81c to $1. The 99c bid will then be reduced to 81c and the process will repeat ad infinitum. Is this right?'

In our program, we have a SmartBid feature that allows you to outsmart your competition. You can read more about it on the 'Features' page of our site. Basically, you can set your desired position to be #2 with a cap of 1, and then you can also set it a minimum rank you are willing to be dropped to if you can save at least the 'to save' amount. This will find you the first position between your desired position and minimum rank in which you are saving at least X amount.

Use the example above but let's assume your bid cap is $2.00. If you set your 'min rank' to 3 and your 'to save' amount to .10, it will put you in the 3rd position at .81--because as you can see that saved you at least .10 to grab position 3.

ppcman

09-01-2002, 11:17/11:17AM

If anyone has any features that they would like to see, let me know. We are releasing a new version in a few days and can always use more suggestions.

Kal

09-01-2002, 22:58/10:58PM

Originally posted by ppcman
In our program, we have a SmartBid feature that allows you to outsmart your competition.

BidRight have that feature too. They call it "Gap Surfing" (Dude!). Actually I've narrowed my choice down to BidRight and Tangere at the moment. I really like BidRight's interface and the ability to set bid check frequency to each keyword (so you can check your most popular keywords every minute and the rest every day or whatever). Their price is good at $89 but only for 50 keywords. (That's similar to yours isn't it Jed?) The BidRight pro edition at $399 for 300 keywords is too steep for me.

Tangere's price is more cost-effective when you consider they give you 500 keywords. Esp as I had an enquiry today for another PPC campaign and so would need the extra keywords. I've just downloaded your product Jed so I'll give it a go now. Will their be a price increase in your new version?

BidRank

09-01-2002, 23:26/11:26PM

Hi. I was referred here by the proprietor of a Newsletter editor interested in PPC Software. I know different boards have different rules, so I don;t want to breach any protocols you have about business owners posting, but I represent BidRight (www.bidright.net). I am available to answer any and all questions regarding our product. We will also be releasing version 2.0 with support for FindWhat, Kanoodle, and Espotting as well as a host of new features shortly. I encourage you to try our demo. We're so confident we say to try our competition's demo too. :-)

Alan
BidRight

BidRank

09-01-2002, 23:27/11:27PM

Kal,

The profesional edition will be changed in version 2.0 to a much higher keyword level AND a lower price. I can;t divulge more than that until it is released though.

Alan
BidRight

pageoneresults

10-01-2002, 02:03/02:03AM

I too just downloaded BidRight and will run it through the mill. With PPC campaigns on the rise, these types of tools will become mandatory additions to the arsenal!

I spent five minutes reading the user guide and set up my first campaign. I've got it set up to check every hour and we'll see how it performs over the next 15 days. The terms are regionally specific and the competition has been updating once or twice a day. I will admit that this is a very user friendly program and quick to set up.

ppcman, I'll be taking a look at your program also along with others mentioned in this thread.

pageoneresults

10-01-2002, 02:17/02:17AM

Hey ppcman, do you have an affiliate program in the works?

pageoneresults

10-01-2002, 03:03/03:03AM

Does anyone know if there is a program that will allow me to dump a list of keyword phrases into it and then show me what the current #1 bid positions are? It would be nice if it also showed the number of searches performed during the prior month. It would of course need to provide support for Overture and other top PPC providers.

BidRank

10-01-2002, 04:00/04:00AM

We've got one in place at

http://www.bidright.net/affiliates.html

Alan

pageoneresults

10-01-2002, 04:05/04:05AM

I submitted my application a couple of hours ago. Posted one of your banners on my Overture page here...

http://www.123seo.com/overture-ppc-pay-per-click.htm

Once I run the program through my testing and it passes, I'll then build an entire page to promote it.

Thanks!

Kal

10-01-2002, 06:27/06:27AM

Thanks for the info BidRight and for accepting the invitation to visit the forums. Hope you choose to hang around! :cheers:

Alan Perkins

10-01-2002, 07:43/07:43AM

ppcman said
In our program, we have a SmartBid feature that allows you to outsmart your competition. You can read more about it on the 'Features' page of our site. Basically, you can set your desired position to be #2 with a cap of 1, and then you can also set it a minimum rank you are willing to be dropped to if you can save at least the 'to save' amount. This will find you the first position between your desired position and minimum rank in which you are saving at least X amount.

Use the example above but let's assume your bid cap is $2.00. If you set your 'min rank' to 3 and your 'to save' amount to .10, it will put you in the 3rd position at .81--because as you can see that saved you at least .10 to grab position 3

I don't get it - in the example, 81c is second position, not third. At that position, the top bid of $1 will drop back down to 82c a minute later (eliminating its own bid gap) and the process will continue.

How can software "outsmart" the competition when the competition is somebody else running the same piece of software? Do the two copies of the software collaborate with each other or compete against each other?

Surely the effect of every user running checks and updates every minute is that several actions are performed every minute, for every user. The PPC engine is flooded with hits, almost like a distributed denial of service attack. Is that the case?

ppcman

10-01-2002, 11:56/11:56AM

'Hey ppcman, do you have an affiliate program in the works?'

Yes, we are currently working on this (will be able to sign up and what not online). Currently by special request, you can become an affiliate and even have us create you a special branded store. Shoot me an email if you are interested.

'Does anyone know if there is a program that will allow me to dump a list of keyword phrases into it and then show me what the current #1 bid positions are? It would be nice if it also showed the number of searches performed during the prior month.'

Our program can both of these things for Overture. You can check current positions for multiple engines (one word at a time I believe) at http://www.compareyourclicks.com/ .

Alan, to answer you questions, in the example. #1 was 1.20, #2 was 1.19, #3 was .80, so it would, in fact, put you in the # 3 position. You can outsmart competition running the same software or similiar software by setting strategic parameters for the keywords.

'The PPC engine is flooded with hits, almost like a distributed denial of service attack. Is that the case?'

Not sure what this means.

Alan Perkins

10-01-2002, 12:40/12:40PM

Hi ppcman

Thanks for the prompt responses. Please understand I'm not trying to cause problems, just increase my own understanding. I value your replies.

In the example. #1 was 1.20, #2 was 1.19, #3 was .80OK, we were talking at crossed purposes - not sure how to retrieve this...let's try going with your example.

The current #3 is 80c. Somebody else comes in also using your software and bids 81c, grabbing the #3 spot. Then the current #2 at $1.19, also using your software, sees a bid gap and drops to 82c and the current #1 also using your software drops to 83c. We now have

old #3 at 80c
new #3 at 81c
old #2 at 82c
old #1 at 83c

The top three bids there (81c, 82c, 83c) may all have a bid maximum of $1.20. Over the course of the next few minutes three separate copies of your software will bid them up to it. The positions will then be:

old #3 at 80c
new #3 at $1.18
new #2 at $1.19
new #1 at $1.20

new #3 will then see "Hmm, I can't go higher, but look at that huge gap below me" and drop to 81c. At that point, we are back where we started and it will repeat again.

Is that right?

Not sure what this means.I can see the benefits to using bid management software. They are great. So suppose most people who use PPC also use bid management software. Suddenly things they didn't have time to do before, like checking every keyword every minute and adjusting bids, become possible. But on the receiving end of that automation is a server that is having to keep up with large numbers of automated requests from every user of bid management software. The server was probably designed to cope with manual requests. It could be crashed by large numbers of simultaneous automated requests.

ppcman

10-01-2002, 13:04/01:04PM

Alan, no problem, I am more than happy to answer all of your questions.

I understand your point of view on the 'bidding wars.' No matter how many or what features bid management tools offer, this 'problem' will always exist to an extent. The best thing to do in these situations is to study your competition's bid patterns and set your bid parameters accordingly. For instance, say those 3 people are all vying for the #1 position with a bid cap of 1.20, and you are one of the 3. If you use the SmartBidding feature and set your min rank to 3 to save .10, and the other two just have a desired position of 1 and a bid cap of 1.20 set (no use of the SmartBid) , those two will be constantly in the war for the #1 and #2 positions, while you will sit comfortably at #3--bidding probably about .40 less than them.

Yes, your competition could set the exact same parameters, but if you properly asses the situation, you can, with the help of the program, outsmart your competition.

Overture is taking measures to manage these 'attacks,' and I'm sure other engines will follow suit.

pageoneresults

10-01-2002, 14:05/02:05PM

One of the first things that went through my mind is exactly what has come up in this thread. What happens when you have three competitors using the same piece of software or something similar? Well, it will probably become a nightmare for Overture in due time and for advertisers.

But, you can either do it the manual way (through your Overture account) or automate the process by using one of the tools mentioned in this thread. Things will change in the near future, but for now, I see this as one of the best ways to manage a PPC program.

I spent most of my time during the months of November and December managing an Overture campaign for the company I work for (Eagle) and it was very time consuming. I wish I would have had the time to research the programs mentioned in this thread. It got to the point where I kept the Overture Power Manager open and was updating bids every 5 minutes depending on the time of day.

I've been running the BidRight program since yesterday and like what I see so far. I also downloaded the PPC Pro software and need to spend a little more time with that one figuring out all of the information required to set the campaign up. I will admit that BidRight was easy to set up in less than 10 minutes and very user friendly.

I'll continue to post my findings in this thread as my 15 day trial period counts down. I have one client who I've sent an e-mail to concerning the software in this thread and they are ready to sign up!

ppcman

10-01-2002, 14:17/02:17PM

I'll be the first one to admit that it is a bit tougher to set up a campaign on our software; but, IMHO, the power of our software is unmatched. To help the users out, starting next week, we will be offering free training sessions to show you how to make the most out of PPC Pro.

Also, any suggestions to make it more user-friendly are greatly appreciated.

Alan Perkins

10-01-2002, 14:50/02:50PM

Yes, that is good Jed. :)

Thanks for your answers.

ppcman

10-01-2002, 16:06/04:06PM

PS. The interface on our new version will be much more user-friendly. We have decided to make some adjustments. Thanks for the feedback!

pageoneresults

10-01-2002, 16:08/04:08PM

I've been playing with the Gap Surfing feature of BidRight and this is so cool! I still haven't reviewed the PPC Pro but have to admit that I'm one for simplicity! I'm not sure if I'll make it to the PPC Pro, sorry!

I would rate the BidRight usability factor at about a 8.5-9.0 on a 1 to 10 scale. Someone definitely has a big sign above their work area that reads "Keep It Simple", you know, the old KISS method minus the stupid part.

pageoneresults

10-01-2002, 16:11/04:11PM

Hey ppcman, definitely look forward to the new version. I'll assume that an e-mail is forthcoming with the update information and link to download for those who have recently registered and downloaded the software.

I saw some features in your program that I like also. I may run them side by side, try to synchronize the intervals between both, and see how they compare.

Kal

11-01-2002, 20:18/08:18PM

Well folks, I've decided to go with BidRight. Mainly because of all the great features mentioned here and the easy to use interface as outlined by pageone, plus the price is right. Looking forward to v2 and becoming an affiliate soon.

Tangere was a close 2nd, followed by PPC Management (once you get the useability issues ironed out ppcman, it will be a great product! I'll keep an eye out for your new version).

If anyone would like to read my review of the various Bid Management software, it will be in the next issue of my newsletter (out next week). I'll post a link then or you can sign up anytime from my site.

Re the "denial of service" potential with bid management software - hopefully it won't come to that, I would hope people wouldn't set their default to 1 min rank checks. Personally, I would only check every few hours or so. I guess the situation can be likened to WPG ranking reporting draining server bandwidth - common sense usage must prevail. :)

pageoneresults

13-01-2002, 01:37/01:37AM

I too will be choosing BidRight. Its just too simple to pass up!

I do believe it will only be a matter of time before Overture responds to the ppc management software. People will set it to one minute intervals for highly competitive terms and this will occur during peak hours.

Can you imagine the load on the Overture servers? I'm sure they've got terabytes just floating all over the place.
Terabyte (http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=terabyte) =

(1) 2 to the 40th power (1,099,511,627,776) bytes. This is approximately 1 trillion bytes.

(2) 10 to the 12th power (1,000,000,000,000). This is exactly one trillion.
I'll catch this wave while its hot. Managing ppc can be very time consuming and the management tools that are mentioned in this thread will cut your time investment to less than 10% of what it was previously!

P.S. I think the reason Overture has not incorporated this feature into their system is because of the possible abuse factor and server loads.

pageoneresults

14-01-2002, 14:05/02:05PM

Here is a resource I just located which discusses some of the various pay per click management tools out there.

Pay Per Click Bid Managers (http://www.pay-per-click-bid-managers.com)

pageoneresults

14-01-2002, 14:27/02:27PM

The rumour is that Overture is looking at limiting access to their servers from bid management software. An announcement is expected some time in January 2002.

With bidding tools now capable of updating bids every 60 seconds, the load on their servers is becoming too great. It may be that Overture only give their approval to selected software and limit the update frequency to a more sustainable level.

Monthly subscription software might be the safest bet until the picture becomes clearer.
Quoted from Pay Per Click Bid Managers Newsletter (http://www.pay-per-click-bid-managers.com/newsletter.html).

Alan Perkins

14-01-2002, 14:59/02:59PM

Whether or not that rumour is true, my guess is that Overture will ultimately throttle based on IP. IMO it would not be a good idea for them to simply block bid management software. That will just drive bid management software writers to make their HTTP requests indistinguishable from a standard browser. Better to block excessive usage.

I suggest you lower your checking interval. The more you lower it, the lower your chances of being blocked.

Alan Perkins

14-01-2002, 16:44/04:44PM

Overture, if you ARE reading this thread, think about this. Either

a) allow multiple bids at the same price and rotate the bidders in the results (allows transparent "negotiation" between multiple bidders)
b) lower your bid update frequency to hour(s) or day(s) so bids aren't updated instantly (although allow people to cancel bids instantly) or
c) implement some kind of interrupt notification system (server push, maybe) so bid management software doesn't have to poll

rlscott

14-01-2002, 19:00/07:00PM

Kalena,

I wouldn't purchase any software for Overture Bid Management at present unless you consider it a throw away purchase. Overture are expected to announce restrictions on bid management software, possibly this month (Jan). They fired the first shot today (14 Jan) in a move that flags their change in attitude -

"Effective immediately, we can no longer list any sites or terms related to software designed to manage Overture accounts. As a result of this change, we have removed the following terms from your account:
bid management" ...etc

Expect some more announcements in the near future. Monthly subscription software might be the safest bet until the picture becomes clearer.

Alan Perkins

14-01-2002, 19:15/07:15PM

Welcome to the forums, rlscott! :hi:

You might want to create a sig file for yourself.

Thanks for the info. So Overture won't allow you to sell bid management software using Overture. Hmm...

rlscott

14-01-2002, 19:48/07:48PM

Thanks for the welcome Alan and Doug.

Alan's point about censorship on Overture is extremely valid. Fair enough if Overture wants to stop bid management software hammering their servers, but why censor the whole bid management market?

Kal

14-01-2002, 20:49/08:49PM

Thanks for the info Robert & welcome :hi: I have asked BidRight for their opinion on this issue and expect them to post soon.

I still think that if common sense prevailed re bid checking intervals, the impact on Overture's servers would be minimal. After all, many more people use rank reporting software and only 1 or 2 engines decided they can't deal with it. But I guess not everyone in this biz allows common sense to prevail over $$. Let's hope Overture comes up with a solution that works for everyone.

BidRank

14-01-2002, 21:04/09:04PM

Please understand that I am limited in what I can say. As for the "censorship", I was quite surprised by it when we received notification. I understand where Overture is moving with this, but it doesn;t seem logical the way they are going about it. As for "hammering their servers" we have devised a way to make the bid changes have LESS of an impact on their servers than a user logging in, it just has not been implemented yet as it requires information that we, at the moment, do not have. All I can say is that we do not believe software and services are shutting down any time soon and we plan to roll on with BidRight. I will post more as things develop.

BidRank

16-01-2002, 09:03/09:03AM

If this is a bit much, the moderators can truncate it. Just wanted to give an update on BidRight as we released version 2.0 yesterday. In addition to the following we have generally increased our keyword limits while cutting our prices.

Enhancements:

1. New Search Engine Support: In addition to Overture and Overture UK, the program now support FindWhat, Kanoodle, and Espotting.

2. File Export: BidRight now allows you to export your bid file back into a CSV.

3. File Merge: This feature allows you to merge your current bid file with a CSV file constructed as described in the User Guide.

4. Bid Change Logging: BidRight now has the capability to log bid changes to a text file. This file is appended during the day, and a new one started the next day.

5. Bid Properties: The bid properties dialog is now divided into three property sheets labeled “standard”, “advanced” and “automation”.

6. Minimum Gap: This is by default one cent. You may now increase this value to increase the size of the gaps that will be ignored by BidRight. For example, if you set the min gap to .04, then anything 4 cents and below will not be considered a gap.

7. Drop Back Rank: When your rank is out of reach, rather than drop to the next rank, you can specify to have BidRight attempt to place you at a rank of your choosing. For example, if your target rank is #3, then normally when you are outbid you will drop to #4. With this setting you could specify BidRight to drop you to #5, #10, or the rank of your choosing.

8. More Advanced Automation Options: Secondary automation parameters may now be set to change your target rank and bid max based on the time of day and day of the week.

9. A Bidder’s Domain Name column has been added.

10. Demo Edition Change: The Demo Edition is limited to 15 days and the frequency of updates has also been limited to a frequency of 15 minutes or above.

Fixes:

1. Gap Surfing: BidRight now takes into consideration instances where there are fewer bids than the rank range specifies.

2. Memory/CPU Usage: BidRight has been streamlined to eliminate momentary freezes of the BidRight Desktop.

3. Shutdown: New features have been put in place to ensure BidRight exits smoothly and that it does not hang up in the background.

pageoneresults

16-01-2002, 11:55/11:55AM

In addition to the following we have generally increased our keyword limits while cutting our prices.When will you be updating your site with the new keyword limits and pricing structure?

BidRank

16-01-2002, 12:11/12:11PM

The page has already been updated. If you are still seeing version 1.21 indicated you may be viewing a cached page. A good old fashioned shift+F5 should fix that.

Alan

pageoneresults

16-01-2002, 12:20/12:20PM

Pricing and keyword limits appear to be the same as they were in version 1.21. Am I missing something?

pageoneresults

16-01-2002, 12:22/12:22PM

I figured it out, thanks!

BidRank

16-01-2002, 12:22/12:22PM

Standard is the same at $89 for 50, Professional was changed from $399/300 to $199/500, and Enterprise was changed from $999/1200 to $399/5000.

Alan

Kal

16-01-2002, 23:33/11:33PM

For those interested, I have written an article reviewing the top 8 Bid Management Software Programs in my latest newsletter. Link to full article (including Features Comparison Chart) is here:
http://www.high-search-engine-ranking.com/PPC_Bid_Management_Software_Showdown.htm

Congrats to the winners BidRight and the runners up PPC Management :cheers:

rlscott

17-01-2002, 21:11/09:11PM

It is always interesting to hear other peoples experiences or evaluations of bid management software, so I enjoyed reading Kal's evaluation.

I would like to see more users report on their experiences. As for myself, I try and test all the different programs but don't have the time to test every upgrade that comes out.

However one thing that has come out of my testing is the huge difference in resources required by PC based bidding software compared to Web-based. A feature for feature comparison of programs can be misleading without factoring in this overhead.

Personally I favor web-based software for many reasons, but primarily because it takes the load off my PC and my pocket. Sure it's dearer to pay a monthly subscription than an outright purchase, but with the cost of Internet access in Australia I'm still ahead. I pay AU $12.50 per 120 Megs for downloads. I found that PC based bid managers can easily use 120 Megs in one day. A drastic reduction in the number of keywords and bidding intervals helped but was still more expensive than using web-based programs.

I would like to see feedback from users of PC-based bid managers -

Do you experience problems with download quotas or costs, or are these cheaper in other countries?
How do you feel about the wear and tear and electricity costs of leaving your PC running 24 hours per day?
Does the overhead of running bid management software impact on the other tasks you perform on your PC?
How do you manage when you go on vacation?

Getting away from the negatives -

What features do you like about your particular software and why?

Lets also hear from users of web-based software so we can have a balanced discussion that provides a good overview of the current market.

Mel

17-01-2002, 23:36/11:36PM

Hi rlscott

I have a much better arrangement for downloads, my internet access is US$ 3.50 per month for unlimited usage, so this is really not a factor for me.

Most of the wear and tear on a PC comes from the power surge when you first switch on. Leaving Your PC on all the time will actually extend its life. You can save most of the power cost of running 24 hour per day by switching off the monitor when not in use or using power management software that will shift the entire pc into a low power mode. as required

No problem running other programs with bid management software, but then I am running a 1 ghz machine with 512 megs of ram.

Whats a vacation?

pageoneresults

18-01-2002, 00:23/12:23AM

How do you manage when you go on vacation?You either delegate the responsibility to someone else or have a laptop with you at all times and of course internet access.

I will agree that web based applications have a slight edge over pc based applications. But, there are many factors to take into consideration. Here in Orange, California, we have Time Warner Cable access. I pay $49.00 per month with unlimited throughput and an average speed of 140k to 220k per second, it is incredibly fast!

With that type of throughput, a decent processor speed and more than adequate ram, you can run three or four BidRight programs in the background and still perform your other tasks without interruption.

I guess it all comes down to your available resources and backup support while you are on vacation or whatever the absence may be. Heck, I could install the program on my partners computer and she wouldn't even know it was there. Silently running in the background, scheduled to update bids conservatively while I'm away. I like that type of support!

P.S. I've been testing BidRight and it doesn't get any easier than this. Its an organic program, and it appears that the developers are on top of their game. They need to be, with all the tough competition out there. There are quite a few respectable players, and most, if not all, have been mentioned in this thread.

Kal

18-01-2002, 03:21/03:21AM

Originally posted by rlscott
I pay AU $12.50 per 120 Megs for downloads. I found that PC based bid managers can easily use 120 Megs in one day.

Hi Robert - sounds like you need a new ISP. I'm in Australia and I pay only AUD $29.95 (US $15) per month for unlimited access and no download limits via Optus Internet. They also throw in some cheap phone deals if you switch over from Telstra. I tried BigPond and AOL before that and was shocked at the costs they were trying to throw at me per MB download. I used up my limits in the first day with them!!

The major advantage of PC based programs for me is the security issue. I don't like the idea of a 3rd party having access to my Overture account details, or the possibility of a hacker grabbing them from the Internet or (and this actually happened with Gapster last month) my account details on a live web server, prime for the taking by anyone, anytime. I'm interested in other's viewpoints on this...

<edit>Forgot to mention that I never leave my PC on for more than about 12 hours at a time (it's a laptop). At the moment I don't need to run bid checks more than daily so it's fine for me. In fact I'd worry about overloading PPC engine servers if I checked more than every few hours</edit>

pageoneresults

18-01-2002, 12:29/12:29PM

Hey Kal, have you noticed any delays with your BidRight program today? I'm seeing major delays in checking status and bid updates. I rebooted just in case my system resources were borderline but still same delay issue.

Anyone else out there trying out the program? Comments on the delays or is it just me?

BidRank

18-01-2002, 12:36/12:36PM

Rest assured that any delays are not due to the program. The limiting factor is the speed of your internet connection and, most importantly, the speed at which the SE servers are processing requests. You will notice, for instance, that Espotting takes much longer to check a bid than Overture, but that FindWhat will change a bid faster than Overture. This assumes normal conditions. During high traffic periods, server load imbalance, or other problems, it may take longer than normal for any of the SEs. Hope that clears things up a bit and we are always available to answer your questions.

support@bidright.net
ICQ 21856787
tech support: 337-392-9248

Alan

pageoneresults

18-01-2002, 13:05/01:05PM

Here in Orange, California, we have Time Warner Cable access. I pay $49.00 per month with unlimited throughput and an average speed of 140k to 220k per second, it is incredibly fast!Hello Alan, I'm not sure if your explanation is the case just yet. I've been testing daily at different times of the day and normally to check status takes less than 10 seconds with five (05) bids.

Right now when I run selected, it is taking anywhere from one to two minutes to check status and tell me that bid and rank are on target. And then I have one bid that is stuck in an indefinite "checking status" mode.

I'm going to keep an eye on it throughout the day and see what happens. Thanks for your quick response.

pageoneresults

18-01-2002, 13:35/01:35PM

tech support: 337-392-9248Hello Alan, tried the support phone number and received voice jail. I'm still having issues with one of the five bids getting stuck in a "checking status" mode. I cannot stop the check and have to ctrl+alt+delete to shutdown the program.

I'm going to reinstall and see if that solves the problem.

BidRank

18-01-2002, 22:53/10:53PM

As far as I know all email and voicemail support requests were answered today. Overture had a variety of problems today. That is one thing about software such as ours is that it highlights the problems any SE is having from moment to moment. If you are still having any difficulty please email us at support@bidright.net or contact me personally via ICQ (21856787).

Alan

pageoneresults

18-01-2002, 23:12/11:12PM

Everything is back to normal now and has been since earlier this afternoon. It was ugly this morning with all the freezes in the program because of Overture's problems.

Maybe you could set it up so there was a time out after a certain time period. As it stood, I saw one bid stick in the "checking status" mode for more than 10 minutes. I was still able to function normally on my PC but BidRight was stuck. I had to ctrl+alt+del more than a few times before I decided to give it a rest.

Its running like a charm now. Since I'm still on the trial period, I'm only working with five (05) phrases. I'm hoping the performance is still there when I add fifty (50) more at the next test stage (after the trial period). I also want to keep an eye on what Overture is up to in regards to their statements about Bid Management Software.

BidRank

18-01-2002, 23:15/11:15PM

There will be news on Overture and Bid Management Software and services on Monday.

Alan

BidRank

21-01-2002, 14:52/02:52PM

We are now an approved Overture 3rd Party tool. Details will follow as things progress. :-)

Alan

Alan Perkins

21-01-2002, 14:54/02:54PM

Congratulations Alan :cheers:

And what a fine name you have there, too. :)

BidRank

21-01-2002, 17:18/05:18PM

I don't want to give my competitors (the few left) any free advertising, but Did-It.com has not signed on. Actually I think the other guy with software that is on this forum may be approved, but I'm not sure. I don't think I can comment more than that.

Alan

pageoneresults

21-01-2002, 19:32/07:32PM

Great job Alan! Glad I chose BidRight to begin with. Thanks for keeping us in the loop!

ppcman

21-01-2002, 22:19/10:19PM

PPC Pro is now also an Overture approved 3rd party bid management tool.

Kal

30-01-2002, 18:48/06:48PM

A belated congrats to BidRight and PPC Management for becoming Overture approved tools! :cheers:

I am in the midst of launching PPC campaigns for 3 clients and I'm really glad I have software to help me manage it, but I must say, Overture are INCREDIBLY slow to approve bid descriptions, client representations and changes at the moment. It has taken a week and a half to get one of my campaigns going and the other two I'm still waiting on. Makes things difficult if you've told a client a campaign will start on a certain date :(

There are also a lot of false starts with description approvals due to the new regulations. I strongly suggest to those persons submitting new descriptions - pay very close attention to the new regulations and submit ALL of your descriptions at the same time, because the wait is endless and if any descriptions need amending, the wait starts over again.

rlscott

31-01-2002, 18:56/06:56PM

SavePerClick and GO TOAST™ are also Overture™ approved third party bid management services. I'm sure there are others too.

It appears that certain restrictions have been placed on the approved bid management programs, including update frequency. No doubt more information will be forthcoming over the next few weeks.

pageoneresults

08-02-2002, 04:13/04:13AM

BidRight Signs Agreement with Overture

BidRight Customers,

We are pleased to announce that BidRight is now an Overture approved third party tool. As a result of the agreement reached, you can expect many developments in the next few weeks and into the future.

Overture's program will greatly enhance the stability and ease at which BidRight operates. One change that will take place is that BidRight will be split into two separate programs with one of the programs dedicated to managing Overture accounts. This will allow us to implement the changes and enhancements that are unique to Overture account management. Current users will receive both programs at no charge.

Also, to reduce the strain on Overture's servers, all licensees have agreed to limit automated bid changes to six per keyword per day. You will still be able to change bids with BidRight at any time manually. To adjust for this, BidRight will be enhanced to allow you to customize your bidding strategy and to alert you when bids need to be changed manually.

Finally, in the near future, the third party tool process of checking and changing bids will be enhanced to provide bid changes that will be quicker, result in fewer errors, take much less of a load on your internet connection, and use fewer system resources.

Thank you for your support and please continue to send us your suggestions for new features.

BidRight Support

BidRank

09-02-2002, 15:45/03:45PM

Thanks for posting our most recent update. Here is a follow up we sent:

Dear BidRight Customer,

It seems that there is a little confusion as to the details of the changes
being made especially in regards to the 6 changes per keyword per day
restriction. The following is more information for clarification:

1. Manual changes are defined as keyword bid changes you make by clicking
on the appropriate icons and keywords in BidRight. You may do this as
frequently as you wish.

2. Tools that do not have an agreement with Overture (and hence do not
abide by the restriction) will have steps taken against them by Overture.

3. Customers that use third party tools and services that are not approved
by Overture may face having their accounts suspended or terminated.

4. Also note that your current version will continue to function as is
until Overture makes changes to the DTC.

Thank you.

BidRight Support

ThatAdamGuy

25-02-2002, 07:34/07:34AM

Hi there,

Been a while since I stopped by this forum, and I'd forgotten how friendly and helpful the community is here. Such spirit is a rarity on boards nowadays, it seems!

Anyway, to the main point of my post here: I called Overture, and found out the exact seven tools that are approved for use with their service:

- Bidright
- Clickpatrol
- GoToast
- PPCBidTracker
- SavePerClick
- Surehits
- PPCManagement

Interestingly enough, the two companies who've participated in this forum are the only viable options, IMHO! The others (services, not software, from what I can tell) have prices so obscenely high for >200 terms that it makes my head spin!

I'm leaning towards Bidright now, and I must say that my pre-sales contact with them has already been outstanding... quick and helpful.

I'd consider PPCManagement, but alas, I need more than just Overture bid management, and I'm uncertain when/if they plan on adding other engines.

I have about 2000 terms I'd like to manage and I must admit that the $399 charger for Bidright is giving me a bit of pause; my financial situation is a bit tough at the moment (I know I'm not alone!), and I already threw nearly that much at Tangare already <sigh>. However, by my calculations, break-even point'd be around 8-10 months for me, and that's just including gapclosing savings and not counting what my time is worth. So I'm strongly considering the purchase.

On a related note, one thing that's interesting is that the friendly tech rep I spoke with at Overture noted that he's "pretty certain" that Overture will offer built-in proxy bidding (which'll prevent bid gaps!) but he emphatically noted that he couldn't give any timelines or other information. Interesting, huh?

Anyway, I hope everyone here's off to a decent 2002, and I'll look forward to reading other perspectives on PPC stuff here.

Regards,
Adam | adam@smilezone.com | http://smilezone.com/
Visit my site for humor, freebies, pictures, and much more to make ya smile! :)

rlscott

25-02-2002, 17:35/05:35PM

Adam, Do you really need software to manage ALL those keywords? I've found that the less popular keywords hold their position quite well. It's only the popular keywords that need regular monitoring and updating.

Why not save money by purchasing a smaller keyword licence to manage your most important keywords, and manage the rest manually once per week. It works OK for me.

ThatAdamGuy

25-02-2002, 17:43/05:43PM

Your point is well taken, but it comes down to time.

Let's say, amongst the different services, I have 1500 terms that I handle manually. If I just check them once a week, as you suggest, I'm assuming that'd take me at least 2 hours each time.

Assigning a worth of $40 an hour to my time, that's $80 lost each week, or $4,160 each year.

Even if I'm overestimating the time needed by a huge margin... I'd still be coming out behind, I'd think.

Let's say I spent merely an hour, once a month (!) checking my remaining terms. That's $480 a year, *STILL* considerably more than the cost a license upgrade.

Regards,
Adam

rlscott

25-02-2002, 17:54/05:54PM

You're right about the time factor.

It's only at Overture that I have a lot of keywords, the other SE's don't deliver on less popular keywords. I set my Overture page size to 100 lines and I have developed a speedy system to make changes.

Auto bid changes are making people lazy. Manual changes help keep you in touch with what's happening with the competition and give you a better feel for your niche. You will see trends and other useful info that the auto maniacs miss out on.

ThatAdamGuy

25-02-2002, 17:59/05:59PM

Robert commented:
Auto bid changes are making people lazy. Manual changes help keep you in touch with what's happening with the competition and give you a better feel for your niche. You will see trends and other useful info that the auto maniacs miss out on.You have me curious! Can you explain that a bit more?

Regards,
Adam

rlscott

25-02-2002, 18:33/06:33PM

I can't afford to give all my trade secrets away but here's a few general points that probably give away too much anyway.

When making manual changes to bids you can often spot new trends or changes in your industry before they are obvious to the crowd, giving you a head start on exploiting them.

I also get ideas and inspiration from other peoples titles and descriptions for my own. Not only that but sometimes I feed off their listing. For example my conversion rate goes up if someone has an ad that says "widgets for $20" and I place an ad under theirs that says "same widget for $15".

I belong to a lot of affiliate programs. If I can spot a new affiliate program before anyone else and get in early then I can usually get others to join up under me. Where do I spot these new programs? You guessed it - when I'm changing bids.

If you don't keep in touch with your industry while making bid changes then you only have to spend time doing research anyway if you want to remain competitive.

Kal

25-02-2002, 18:46/06:46PM

Welcome to the forums thatAdamguy :hi: and thanks for a great post. Hey Robert, very curious as to what you think of Overture's recent guidelines makeover. Have you suffered from the resulting long delays and rejections of bid listings that have plagued other Overture advertisers recently?

ThatAdamGuy

25-02-2002, 19:11/07:11PM

Robert,

You and I have actually been thinking (and acting) similarly, but just from different angles. When I used to use Tangare, I had it spew insanely detailed reports to me each day, and I'd make careful notes (mentally or otherwise) of trends... "Hmm... my bids keep going up for 'Buy AdamWidgets', better check out that term to see what's going on."

I also made a habit, based upon monthly checks of detailed Overture reports, to "hand scan" the terms that were costing me big bucks, to assess whether I was bidding intelligently on them or not.

HOWEVER, I have not ever dared to change descriptions for my Overture items, fearing the wrath of the unpredictable Editorial Gods and Goddesses. I'm too paranoid about them deciding to cancel some of my terms altogether.

Regards,
Adam
Visit my site for some smiles: http://smilezone.com/ :-)

rlscott

25-02-2002, 19:29/07:29PM

Hi Kal, I've only made one submission to Overture recently and all my keywords were accepted. Mind you, only after I contacted them 14 days after submitting to ask why it was taking so long. I was careful to make sure my titles and descriptions etc were as per their instructions.

I like Overture's new rules. Anything that puts other people off and increases relevancy is good in my books. I'm persistent and will do whatever it takes to get listed. I love people who give up easily or can only see the negatives. They make my job easier.

ThatAdamGuy

25-02-2002, 19:35/07:35PM

Along Robert's lines, I also have to say I'm pleased with Overture's move to prohibit more than 6 automatically-initiated bid changes daily. The minute-updates that many folks were apparently doing were clearly slowing down the whole darn interface for the rest of us.

However, given my now-lost investment in Tangare, I can't say I'm very happy that Overture limited which programs and services could interface with its system. IMHO it also seems that there's now not enough competition (only 2 software programs for such a large market?!?), which possibly stiffles innovation and keeps prices higher.

Regards,
Adam

billy fullerton

26-02-2002, 11:44/11:44AM

Hi Guys,

I've been asked to review this ppc software by the manufacturer. It gives a free trial download. Iv'e not really had time to look at it yet but it may be of some use to you.

http://www.apexpacific.com/keywordbid_maximizer.html.

ThatAdamGuy

26-02-2002, 15:53/03:53PM

Two things concern me about this program:

1) It's not currently on Overture's approved list, so despite the company's assurances on their homepage, I'd be a bit worried.

2) It strikes me as odd and unfortunate that they will have "two programs"... one for Overture bids and another for bids with other search engines. That seems a bit inconvenient.

Regards,
Adam

pageoneresults

27-02-2002, 21:07/09:07PM

Overture's authorized third party vendors are...
· BidRight
· ClickPatrol
· GoToast
· PPCBidTracker
· PPC Management
· SavePerClick
· Sure Hits
· APEX Pacific Corp.As of 02.27.2002.

BidRank

27-02-2002, 22:29/10:29PM

This was in Overture's email to all Overture customers today:

LICENSING AGREEMENTS REQUIRED FOR THIRD PARTY BIDDING TOOL VENDORS

Due to the success of the Overture marketplace and the unique way we list our advertisers (real-time bidding for position), a number of companies have offered automated bidding tools to work with advertisers to maintain their desired bid and position in the search results, and to use Overture's DirecTraffic Center® to adjust their bids.

The increased frequency of automated bidding by third party vendors presents a risk to our internal systems and the performance of the DirecTraffic Center®. In addition, our advertisers have reported being confused about the capabilities and authenticity of third party bid management tools. Therefore, we have amended our Terms of Use, Advertiser Terms and Conditions, and Advertising Agency Terms and Conditions Agreements to specifically restrict the use of automated bidding tools. In addition, we have entered into agreements authorizing several companies to provide automated bidding tools to Overture's advertisers, provided that these vendors agree to appropriate usage limits and other restrictions contained in written license agreements. We believe this will maintain the integrity of our systems, while providing the structure and consistency our advertisers seek.

Overture's authorized third party vendors are BidRight...

ThatAdamGuy

28-02-2002, 03:01/03:01AM

Yep, I just got that note from Overture today, too, and I was pleased to see that they obviously had read my earlier note here [grin].

Also, I should offer my apologies to Apex, since it's now clear that they ARE an approved and licensed Overture tool. Additionally, I got back very prompt and helpful info from them from questions I e-mailed to their sales support.

So now my decision is even more tortured... Apex, Bidright, or PPC Management. Whew :-D I think I'll be checking out a few demos this week...

nhr2000

06-03-2002, 17:08/05:08PM

I was also burned by Tangare's product going out, so I've been looking for a replacement. I am testing PPC Pro for about a week now. It seems to work, except that it currently only supports Overture. (Vendor has promised a new version that should be coming out soon.) Just returned from the Search Engine Conference in Boston, where PPC was a hot topic of discussion. If PPC Pro doesn't work out, I'll probably give Bid Right another try.

ThatAdamGuy

25-03-2002, 22:20/10:20PM

Well, now it seems that there are three software contenders in the PPC bid management space: Bidright, Apex Pacific's Dynamic Keyword Bid Maximizer (DKBM), and PPC Management (PPCM).

Since I have keywords on multiple engines, including Sprinks, it seems that my choice is pretty narrow at the moment.

PPCM only supports Overture, though they've apparently noted that they plan to support other services. On the homepage, though, under "Future Services," they only list two (FindWhat and Brainfox) :-(

Bidright supports Overture in one product, plus FindWhat, Kanoodle, and Espotting in another product, requiring two separate purchases... quite a bummer, IMHO. If I'd like to manage 1,000 terms across the services, that'd cost me $298... 5,000 terms'd cost me $548!

DKBM supports the most engines of the three, including Overture, FindWhat, 7Search, Sprinks.com, Bay9.com, Kanoodle.com, Overture UK, Espotting.com, and Epilot.com. Free updates-for-life are offered, and the software costs $150, $400, and $1,000 for 200, 3000, and unlimited number of terms respectively.

For 5,000 terms, then, DKBM is hugely expensive; for fewer terms, though, the support of more search engines and the fact that both Overture and other PPC engines are supported in one program makes DKBM seem pretty attractive.

So for me, it's really a choice between Bidright and DKBM right now, though I do need to really spend some time with their demos and each a fair chance.

BidRank

26-03-2002, 03:20/03:20AM

All approved third party tools are supposed to have Overture in a separate product, so if they haven't done it yet, it is coming. If you have any questions or suggestions for us, just drop a line to support@bidright.net. Thanks.

ThatAdamGuy

26-03-2002, 03:24/03:24AM

Okay, color me confused.

I completely understand that Overture has specific requirements regarding a six-time-per-day maximum for auto bid updates. But why would they require that any programs that interface with their system exclude functionality with other PPC engines?

That just doesn't seem rational, to me.

What am I missing here?

BidRank

26-03-2002, 03:27/03:27AM

They do not want to market their competition, basically.

BidRight

ThatAdamGuy

26-03-2002, 03:40/03:40AM

Hmm... seems like a pretty draconian and illogical move on Overture's part.

It'd be like car companies telling gas stations: "You can provide gas for any cars you want, but you have to have SEPARATE pumps for GM cars, or we won't permit you to put gas in them!"

I could understand if Overture told companies that they could not create PPC bid managers for any competitors, period; that'd still be harsh and inappropriate, but would at least make business sense in a general way (basically an exclusivity clause).

But forcing companies to simply create separate programs... that's, well, just plain dumb.

Thanks for the prompt info, and also thanks to everyone in general here for letting me vent a bit :)

Regards,
Adam, who really isn't thrilled with the idea of having to purchase, configure AND routinely run separate programs which basically do the same thing

ApexPacific

04-04-2002, 21:40/09:40PM

Yes, we will split the program in two covering Overture and none Overture engines. The new version with major improvements and additional features will be ready in next few days.

I can understand when people mentioning that it is a hassle to do so, unfortunally we don't have much of a choice in this issue.

The new version we bringing out will support merged account plus a number of other improvements with it.

If you got any questions regarding KeywordBid Maximizer, you can either email me directly or at support@apexpacific.com

David

Kal

05-04-2002, 01:36/01:36AM

Welcome Apex :hi: - nice product you have there...

ApexPacific

10-04-2002, 02:47/02:47AM

Quick update for everybody, we have released the new split version. Now Overture and rest PPC engines are supported in two different program.

More functions such as merged account, multi accounts, etc are added. We streamlined the project and account set up, now it should be much easier to set up accounts and maintaining them.

New version is available for download at http://www.apexpacific.com/download.html

David

bidmax

12-06-2002, 02:10/02:10AM

have you tried our new software "Dynamic KeywordBid Maximizer" ... try it . Download the 30 day trial version for free at http://www.apexpacific.com/download.html:hi:

qdebruin

19-06-2002, 00:17/12:17AM

Originally posted by Kal
Hi all - Just wondered if any of you have experience with the various PPC bid management software available?
Any software recommendations? Tips? Costs? Thanks in advance.

Note to Kal:

Got sent this like, no idea what it can do, but I'm sure you'll find out. http://www.Keyword-Bid-Optimizer.com

Hope it helps
Cheers
Q
:ladysman:

kykex

20-06-2002, 12:31/12:31PM

First I was using the PPC maximizer called Tangare but it didn't manage to keep its deal with Overture. When looking for a new one I made a list of 10 PPC. The two most interesting ones were the apez pacific one and another called BidRank. Sorry but I finally chose the BidRank one which is more complete. You can do anything you want. But oh well.. That is up to you after. Anyway by choosing one of these two you shouldn't make a mistake.

bidmax

20-06-2002, 19:59/07:59PM

Why did you chose BidRank ??? what do you mean by (more complete) Can you please explain me that....

kykex

21-06-2002, 16:16/04:16PM

Well when I say BidRank is more complete, first it's only my own opinion (I don't want people to hate me for that eheh). The things is that BidRank propose many options that should satisfy the most picky guyz... A few example:

1) BidWatchDog allows you to check every hour if you want your bid to know if you are under your targeted rank, or if you are ok.

2) You can have a "drop Rank". It means that if you do not reach your trageted Rank, instead of bidding your maximum bid, it will drop you to a rank you select.

3) You can have a secondary bid optimization. It means that could ask the software to be first from 9am to 10pm, but then to have a trageted rank of 10 only because you know that outside these hours, surfers searching for your keywords are looking for something different (or any other reasons you think about)

4) ETC.

So that is why I said APEX and BidRank are both find: if you just want to basically optimize your bids, then both are fine. But if you are picky then you might need BidRank. Last info: if i remember BidRank if 5$ more expensive... Not a big difference.

Hope that helps.

P.S.: Sorry I know my english *****... I am French :D