Google Pay Per Click

[pageoneresults]

For those of you who receive the Pandia Newsletter, this one is rather interesting!Google to change AdWords program?

(Feb 12 2002) An unconfirmed rumor has it that Google will change its AdWords program. AdWords are the text ads you find in the left hand column of Google search results.

Their relative position is now based on click-through popularity. In the future the top placement may apparently go to advertisers willing to pay an extra pay-per-click premium. This change will not affect the regular search listings.

[ihelpyou]

I truly doubt that. Google has repeatly stated they do not wish to do PPC. An interview very recently stated this also. Why would they do exactly what other SE's are doing?

They have their niche and this would surely be a big mistake. IMO, this is really a rumor.

[Advisor]

Doug, Pandia is usually a pretty accurate news source.

Jill

[ihelpyou]

Their own statement read "unconfirmed rumor". I am simply stating that I believe it to be a rumor as well.

[Hasenfefer]

I agree with doug,,,Google has gained it's market position mostly by going against the grain, why turn around now and start following trends instead of creating them?

It 'could' happen, I personally hope it doesn't though.

[I'mConfused]

It 'could' happen, I personally hope it doesn't though.

it already has happened.

The only reason Pandia used "unconfirmed rumor" is to get around the strict NDA's associated with the beta program.

[ihelpyou]

Welcome to the forums imconfused! :hi:

Okay. So where is the press release from Google to show this?

Maybe they are simply trying out something on a few terms but nothing definite. I highly doubt it would be definite after the tryout.

Besides, the top spot in Adwords already pays a higher premium than position 2 and 3 right now. Nothing new there. The cost is higher for the top spot to the advertiser anyway.

[MazY]

Oooh. I feel my Christmas predictions coming true... <Insert evil laugh for effect.>

Recipe for Success:

(Best served to a hungry crowd.)

1. Take several million users.
2. Add copious amounts of free incentives to attract.
3. Simmer gently for some time.
4. Increase heat with introduction of a garnishing of AdWords.
5. Simmer again.
6. Experiment with a garnishing of PPC.
7. Simmer gently until hot to touch.
8. Serve dish complete with PPC.
9. Watch millions flock as their hungry mouths now depend on your dish.
10. Sit back and relax while the money flows in. Ahhh....

[MakeMeTop]

LOL :D

I'm with Mazy here - but then I've always been a bit of a cynic!

Rumour on the Adwords PPC beta test started here (http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum3/2060.htm) I think. :)

[Chris_D]

Google Pay per click??

Its alive!!! and its called "Adwords select"

http://www.google.com/ads/

AdWords Select™ combines all the features of AdWords with cost-per-click (CPC) pricing. And it adjusts automatically to keep you ahead of your competition at the lowest possible price.



[Fixed URL - Jill]

[pageoneresults]

Good catch Chris_D. Well our fears have now been realized. MazY summed it up best above. Google has definitely gone about this the smart way. I think there is a lot more to come, this is just the beginning!

P.S. They are getting ready to make a really big chunk of change. And you watch, before the end of this year, IPO! Those guys could sell Google off right now and make millions. Its just a matter of time.

[MakeMeTop]

Well, there's a surprise :)

As Jill said - Pandia 'rumours' are usually a good indicator of something about to break ;)

Nice clean interface, automatic reduction of bids to ensure that there are no bid gaps and up in about 2 minutes. Now, let's see how it works!

Now, I wonder what is going to be next? But Mazy looks pretty spot on so far :D

[Advisor]

Just for fun and to see how it worked, I signed up. I have set a maximum expenditure of $3 per day! hehehe Seems to me this beats paying for impressions when no one is clicking.

It's a nice clean sign up interface, I can tell you that.

Jill

[Farhan]

Jill,
how much will a click cost you?

( may I click it ;) )

[Advisor]

The minimum I could do was $.76 per click. And that was for crappy, non-searched upon phrases that I already rank high for like, "search engine optimization services." To do just "search engine optimization" would have cost something like $1.90 per click. I think they figure it out based on how many searches are done for any given phrase.

Jill

[Kal]

Yep, found out this little gem when I logged into my AdWords account early this morning (about 8 hours ago). I spent the morning setting up loads of new PPC accounts. Will be very interesting to see the ROI on these, because the click thru return on their regular AdWords was quite low (none of my campaigns returned higher than 5%).

[ihelpyou]

hey Jill, you fixed the url by Chris_D, but there is no url there now? What does this mean? :eek:

[Advisor]

Doug, his URL to the google ad page had a comma in it instead of a period! www,google.com! That's all...

J

[ihelpyou]

I know but the Url is not there now. At least I do not see it. :)

[Advisor]

Put your glasses on, old man...it's there for me!

J

[pageoneresults]

We all know how much Doug did not want to see or hear this. These are stall tactics on his part! ;)

[ihelpyou]

??

This is totally different than Oveture. Totally. Google separates it's paid ads from the SERPS. Quite different than Overture. The way Google is doing this is perfectly fine by me and I will recommend it to clients. I Always tell clients about Overture but Never recommend them.

[Mark Sweiger]

Google Unveils New Program
For Text Ads in Search Results

Associated Press/Wall Street Journal


SAN FRANCISCO -- Search engine Google Inc. is introducing a new advertising program that sorts Web ads on its pages by both how much an advertiser paid and how well the ad has performed.

Under a new feature launched Tuesday, the rankings of advertisements will be determined in part by how much Web sites offer to be listed in specific categories. The system lets Web sites raise their bids to increase their chances for higher placement on the section of Google's site that's devoted to sponsored links.

Besides factoring in Web sites' bids, Google's ranking formula will consider how many times visitors click on the displayed links -- a departure from other so-called "pay-for-placement" search engines.

The company has been listing results from advertisers under a similar format since 2000, but it previously sold space under a fixed pricing system, which prevented sites from boosting their rankings with more money.

Google (www.google.com) will continue to reserve most of its site for results sorted by relevance to a search request -- a model that has cultivated a loyal following among Web surfers and turned the 300-employee company into one of the Internet's emerging power brokers. Google's site, and the 130 other businesses that license its technology, handles about 150 million search requests each day.

Except for a few twists, Google's auction-style system mirrors a model used by a prosperous rival, Overture Services Inc.

Pasadena-based Overture has emerged as one of the Internet's biggest financial successes. During the final half of 2001, the company earned $29.7 million on revenue of $173.7 million and this year management projects a $58 million profit on revenue of $442 million.

Closely held Google says it was profitable last year, but won't disclose actual results. The company's revenue last year was about $60 million, estimated industry analyst Lanny Baker of Salomon Smith Barney.

The pay-for-placement system has alienated some people.

A consumer watchdog group last summer filed a Federal Trade Commission complaint alleging the results generated by several pay-for-placement search engines represented a deceptive advertising practice. The FTC hasn't publicly responded to the complaint.

Last month, Texas-based Mark Nutritional Inc. sued Overture and three other search engine companies. It alleged their advertising-driven sorting systems violated Mark Nutritional's trademark on a weight-loss program called Body Solutions by allowing other businesses to buy listings under the phrase.

Google plans to turn away companies trying to buy a listing under categories unrelated to their main business. For instance, Google already has refused advertising from credit card companies that tried to buy listings under the "Palm Pilot" category, said Omid Kordestani, the company's senior vice president of world-wide sales and business development.

Google also intends to maintain strong firewalls between the business and search sides of its operations. "We take our editorial integrity very seriously, just like a newspaper does," Mr. Kordestani said.

[MakeMeTop]

Nice response, Doug - from someone who said this shouldn't happen and was just a rumour ;)

Only teasing - Google will bring in a lot more money by 'enhancing the user and webmaster' experience. Everyone loves them 'cos they are the 'only real search engine'.

Let's face it - everyone loves them 'cos they all are getting something for nothing :)

I don't believe that is going to continue ;)

[Chris_D]

Hey guys- this is really getting seriously commercial!!

Overtures share price falls 14%!!

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20020220/wr_nm/tech_google_overture_dc_1

I wonder what Overtures commercial response will be??

[nuzelonde]

I was a Beta Tester (NDA etc) on Googles PPC scheme early January.

This is where Google meets the cross-road. Will the algo suffer? Will PR0 be more common place? Will the spam filters get pushed to AV levels?

I know one thing: I want in on the Google IPO :)

[Advisor]

Nuze, why would the algo suffer? I don't get how these ads should have much if any effect on the regular listings. And what does PR 0 have to do with it, or spam filters?

I'm sooo confused!

Jill

[ihelpyou]

All she is saying is that Google may wish to force sites to 'pay' now by giving more PR 0's, etc.

I guess subconsciencely this could happen but I truly doubt it as it would not be in Google's best interests to let the algo and SERPS suffer in quality.

[nuzelonde]

Hi Jill

What was that once great search engine that all SEOs loved? Alter....Alt.....Alter Visit....something or other. Used to scramble their listings in order to get more paid advertising from marketers.

I suspect Google will make a lot of money from the PPC. Google will have a vested interest in sustaining and promoting the area from which it earns the most money.

Will we see top ranking relevant sites be randomly re-ordered? The searcher will still be happy - relevant results. The marketers won't be - they will be forced towards the PPC option.

I'm fine with this - Google is a business racing towards IPO and has a duty to make returns for investors. Marketers, on the other hand, need to watch developments carefully.

[OptWizard]

Has anyone tested this out yet or signed up for it?

Curious to see the turn around on this now that it is PPC

[Advisor]

Yep, as mentioned in yesterday's RW, I'm testing it out. It's pretty fun to play with. I've set a very low per day spending cap (like $4) just in case people decide to click.

As of right now, looks like I've gotten 4 clicks. I'm doing it for branding, however. Free ads on Google, seems really cool to me! (Read yesterday's rank write for more info.)

Jill

[MazY]

The bottom line, as you don't need me to tell you, is that Google are in the search engine game for the money. It would make a pretty poor business model if they weren't.

They have, evidently, a lot of intelligent minds working at the Googleplex. Intelligence costs money (and usually losts of it) to retain. (I can't even afford to buy myself any of it!)

The flip side of the coin for not offering any type of pay inclusion is that Google could have very quickly started to look very stagnant in the face of the competition.

From a business perspective, I admire the way they have done it. Taking the time to build their userbase first and build that all important dependency. (Akin to Microsoft ignoring software piracy in many countries for many years, letting the software flood the market and helping companies to build that dependency. Then, when it was in place - boom - send in the money boys.)

From my perspective, I'm pleased with it. It now allows the search engines to be measured more on their own merits as opposed to "Google is best because it's free." The latter is no way to measure the efficiency or the popularity of anything. (Note that I am not convinced that its [Google's] search results are any better than FAST's, in many ways.)

As it is, Google is a great revenue for traffic and I am more than happy to pay for that while it remains to be the case.

Long may it continue.....

[OptWizard]

WW.

Can you descide on a cap for the ad words...meaning you only want to spend say $1000 at $50 max a day...once the 1000 is reached stop the campaign

[Advisor]

Originally posted by OptWizard
WW.

Can you descide on a cap for the ad words...meaning you only want to spend say $1000 at $50 max a day...once the 1000 is reached stop the campaign Opt, I didn't read all the details, but it's all here (https://adwords.google.com/select).

Jill

[OptWizard]

just added funds to try Ad words...so far 365 impression with only 1 click....

[Advisor]

I like the impressions. Great branding. I don't even want clicks! They cost money.

Jill

[usbnuts]

I ran AdWords Select for 2 days. I get about 100 visitors each day. This costs me about $5 USD daily.

[ihelpyou]

How many clicks did you get with that usb?

[usbnuts]

Clicks? I checked. It's about 99.

[bigDugan]

>Akin to Microsoft ignoring software piracy..
Seems like google isnt the only one (http://www.ihelpyouservices.com/forums/images/avatars/Maz.jpg) whose grey matter still functions..
;)

[MazY]

hehe. What can I say? I have every book ever released by Bill Gates, I used to work with the MS boys very closely, and I deeply admire their success. Yes, I'm an out-n-out Microsoftie.

If you haven't yet read "Business at the speed of thought" (http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/exchange-glance/Y04Y1260365Y8926996/qid=1014562809/sr=1-1/104-8675070-3615136) by Billy Boy, you are missing out on some pretty sensible business model thinking practises.

Anyway, must go buff my Bill Gates statue... :D

[BidRank]

Here is what we look like over about 4 days on an experimental ad we set up:

Keyword Clicks Impr. CTR Avg. CPC Cost Avg. Pos
kw1* 4 1176 0.3% $0.32 $1.26 1.1
kw2* 37 8270 0.4% $0.19 $7.02 1.1
kw3* 5 1082 0.4% $0.23 $1.13 1.1
kw4 13 1765 0.7% $0.15 $1.90 1.1
Overall 59.0 12293 0.4% $0.20 $11.29 1.1

Three of the four words were disabled due to less than .5% clickthrough. They are keywords that bring us lots of sales in Overture and I wouldn' care what the clickthrough percentage is (it's the ROI that counts, right?). The one still active is a more generic keyword that is likely to generate more worthless clicks than the others (Low ROI).

I believe time will tell with this because *shoppers* are not going to Google. They go to their favorite or default SE.

I hope you guys find this data helpful and that others will post their success (or lack thereof).

BidRight

[Advisor]

Three of the four words were disabled due to less than .5% clickthrough. Really? My words that are getting less than that (none) have not been disabled. Not yet at least. Perhaps they have to have a certain amount of impressions. Mine are for words that aren't used a whole lot.

Jill

[BidRank]

They state that it is if the rate is under .5% for the last 1000 impressions.

BidRight

[Advisor]

Ah, yes, then that's what it is. I only have one phrase that has had over 1000 impressions and I have a .7% clickthrough on it.

I actually have a 7.1% clickthrough on one phrase, but that's because it's got only 14 impressions and I was clicked on once!

Jill

[usbnuts]

Here's my result over last 2 days.

Clicks: 198
Impressions: 18268
CTR: 1.0%
Avg. CPC: $0.05
Max. CPC: $0.05
Cost $9.92
Avg. Pos: 1.1

There are some more keywords I want to target. Those include 'usb drive', and 'usb card', all of which require at least 30c CPC or higher.

So, I didn't go for it.

Also, I found something very deceiving at Google AdWords Select. I have a listing w/ 5 to 6 keywords. One of the keywords requires at least 30c to start. If you want to target that particular keyword, then you will need to set a higher minimum CPC to 30c. If you have done so, then CPC for other keywords will automatically set to 30c, 25c more than what you really have to pay for.

Frankly, I think setting up a successful CPC campaign is a pain in the ass. First, you need to come up with some really good listings. Then, you will have to track your costly visitors for traffic-to-sale ratio, which can be sometime difficult and expensive to obtain.

[Advisor]

30c, 25c more than what you really have to pay for. But you won't have to pay that amount. You'll still be charged the lower amount for the lower priced phrases. It is weird, how you set it up though. I don't quite understand it all either. I had to set my per click price really high because of the "search engine optimization" keyword. Unfortunately, I have a lot less impressions and clicks than you, but owe them a lot more! I set it so I won't pay more than 4 or 5 bucks a day, which isn't too bad, but that can add up over weeks and months. I'll probably shut it down soon. Just wanted to see how it worked. I have no real tracking mechanism set up for it either, which is kind of dumb. I can't tell if it brings business or not.

Jill

[Kal]

Hey Jill - it's easy to set up a tracking URL, you don't even need to set up a new page on your site. You just list your URL in Google AdWords as sitename.com/?source=GoogleAdwords (calling it whatever name you want). If it is a sub page, then use sitename.com/pagename.htm?source=GoogleAdWords.

Go try those URL's on your own site now. You'll see they resolve to your home page content.

I do this for Overture and Google, and it's handy. But some site stats packages will lump these in with your home page URL referrals, so you'll need to tell the stats package that you want to track those particular URL's specifically. Hope I'm making sense?

[usbnuts]

Kal,

I wanted to do the tracking your way, but I think you need to set up a cookie that really tracks where all your paid visitors are going on your site. This piece of data will tell ya whether or not your 5c or higher CPC is worth it.

[Advisor]

Hey Kal, thanks for the info. I did know about creating that kind of tracking code, and have used it before. It would be a good way to track the number of clicks and makes sure it jibes with what Google says. However, I think what would be more helpful, and I'm not sure the best way to do it, would be to know if any inquiries or requests for proposals came from the ad. I'm not sure how to track that.

Jill

[OptWizard]

I am very dissapointed so far with ad word results...

[joebloe]

Hi Opt.

Like you I just took a close look at the latest Google
Adwords program and personally feel that it is solely for the BIG BOYS with deep pockets. I was required to bid 70cents for my most important phraSE.
that's 70c per click.

Since my logs show me that I make one sale for each 1000+ clicks
each sale I made through this form of advertising would cost me $700 or TWICE what my mark-up is one each item. :mad: :down:
to adwords for the little bloke. P.S.

Don't bother with a welcome - just got locked out despite all my efforts so decided to register again :D

[Kal]

That's strange, so you can't log in as kneelsit anymore? Some weird things have been happening in here lately - have you noticed Doug? Quite a few little bugs. From clicking on a username to be taken to a different member profile to the wrong date for the latest post showing up in some threads - any ideas? Could we have a hacker in our midst?

[joebloe]

Hi Kal, I'll give this one more try.

I came here now from clicking on an old email that was sent to me. Now we will see what happens:)

[joebloe]

Ah well - was time for a change anyhow.

I rather like the pseudonym joebloe - better than the Yankee one of John Doe. :D

[BidRank]

Just a quick note from the Search Engine Strategies Conference in Boston. I'm sure Doug will post plenty about it too, but Google sure got an earful about the AdWords Select program. Hopefully they will take the concerns addressed to heart and get things rolling! I got to speak with one of their engineers after the last session. It was nice to see the respect the SEO community is finally getting from (most of) the search engines.

Alan

[BidRank]

Oh yeah! And don't foget to read Danny Sullivan's latest article on AdWords. He published it Monday for subscribers to Search Engine Watch.

Alan

[BidRank]

Well, I got an email that my AdWords campaign has been deactivated due to lack of clickthroughs (.4% across the board basically). These are keywords that bring some of our highest clickthrough rates at Overture (20 clicks/day on some). Guess we'll try again in a few months. I think the main problem is that people don't go to Google to shop.

[ihelpyou]

I am thinking that could be the case. I was thinking about doing what Jill is doing with the 'branding' thing. Maybe trying to out with these forums to see the results.

[Advisor]

Unfortunately, Doug, the price can get pretty high. The good SEO words are minimally $1.00 and many are more. I racked up over $40 in charges so far and decided to just keep a few very specific words that are rarely searched on. It's not worth it to me to pay like $100 or more a month for something like that. Was a good experiment though. Good to learn how to use it in case a client wants to do it.

Jill

[ihelpyou]

Yes. For the forums, the good terms are not searched on all that much so the cost per click might not be high.

Did you specify your terms in between quotes?

"search term"

[Advisor]

Yep, actually you put them in brackets like this [search engine optimization]. That way you get only that exact term. Too rich for my blood though! Especially when my rank write site is right there for number 2 on the very same page!

Jill

[joebloe]

Yes Jill,

I feel exactly the same way. "*Too rich for my blood*"
:(

If you are M$ or IBM and you are doing it to maintain name recognition then it might be worth looking at. But even so I am highly doubtful.

As I said in an earlier post - my own ROI would be negative, they wanted 78c for a phrase that costs me 6c. at Overture - admittedly it leaves me at no.4 position for that one but that's fine as it gets me on the first page of results. Also those results come up in Dogpile and Mama and "read" the same as ordinary results in the surfers browser - not a little box in the top corner.

[Great-1]

I've just gone throught the set up process to produce some estimates. My primary keyword would cost me $0.31 (about 20p to us UK'ers) to appear #3.

While this is better than the normal Adwords program, which worked out at costing me $0.54 (about 36p), it is still too expensive. It would need to cost about $0.21 (about 13p) for it to be profitable for me.

7p might not seem a lot but you mulitply it by 1000, and there's £70.00. It soon adds up. This is also why I don't bother with Overture.

[ihelpyou]

Yes Kneelsit but that is the whole problem with Overture as their partners try to 'disguise' what the results actually are... paid advertising.

Google does not do this and everyone knows what listings are paid for and what listings are not.

Overture partners are afraid that if users knew what the heck the listings were, they would quit clicking on them. The partners have good reason to be afraid as many are now pursuing this in the courts.

[BidRank]

"Overture partners are afraid that if users knew what the heck the listings were, they would quit clicking on them."

As an Overture advertiser, this is why I actually like relevancy guidelines even if it seems to work against me sometimes. Who wants the kind of clicks you outlined above. If Overture advertisers see their ROI going up in smoke because of irrelevant clicks due to the way partners list them, then Overture is going to have to have the partner adjust the way the listing are or dump the partner, or they may lose alot of customers. Perhaps one of the biggest problems is lack of customer knowledge. If people would scrutinize how their paid listings were working for them and made their concerns known to Overture then something might change, but too many "shotgun blast" their PPC advertising and settle for a positive ROI rather than an optimized ROI. These things are also heavily dependent on the "average internet searcher" which is why Goggle AdWords Select will suffer from the same thing. People will click on the slick adverts rather than the relevant ones. All in all, what can you do except watch your ROI?

[chinook]

I am trying it but all I can say so far is that it is much much more expensive than overture which gives me great results. One of the big things lacking is the ability to set the price you want to pay for individual keywords.

-20 in Calgary

[hemantgc]

spam deleted