Looksmart Site Promote with Keywords -

[SubmissoR]

Anyone notice the new "promotion" thing going on at Looksmart?

It looks reasonable to me:

From the FAQ:
What is the difference between Site Promote without keywords and Site Promote with keywords?

The two defining factors between Site Promote without keywords and Site Promote with keywords are search relevancy and click traffic. Site Promote without keywords uses only the words in your title and description for search relevancy; Site Promote with keywords uses the words in your title and description for search relevancy plus the 10 keywords you've chosen. Also, Site Promotes with keywords are capped at the higher monthly fee, so you receive $10 more traffic by purchasing Site Promote with keywords.

Could really be worth it for higher traffic keywords if it gets you better rankings, adding the keywords and such.

[Advisor]

I think Doug tried it for awhile. How'd it go, Doug?

Jill

[ihelpyou]

Yes. There are a few threads discussing this in here. You are limited to 200 clicks per month with it. I quit after 2 months. It is simply another form of PPC as it comes out to .15 per click. Not for me.

[chopsticks]

I've been getting incredible traffic from the LookSmart entry I have. I maxed out my entry with 5 (yes five) listings to the same URL (that's the max allowed).

Then I added three full listings of keywords to drive traffic.

My secret: choose keywords that are sniping your competition directly (i.e. steal their brand name! steal the keyword queries that they're ranking higher than you for this update of _xxxx_ search engine <-- whatever engine you focus on, like, say, g00gle).

Remember that most engines do have the link pop going for 'em.


Soooooo, if you show up ranked very highly on LookSmart and all their partners for KEYWORDXYZ, then g00gle and the other b0ts should give you increased relevancy and b00st!

It's worked for me. The snowball effect of the web is NOT to be underestimated!!

While you might not get squat for traffic from a pay-for-inclusion site like AltaVista... I believe I have increased my g00gliness factor by about a factor of 3! (i.e. 100% x 100% x100%)

...cause there is no other reason I can imagine for me having the top 10 rankings that I do in g00gle, teoma, etc.

[ihelpyou]

Oh yes, I agree. Getting the five url's listing the regular way can help a bunch!

This thread is talking about the 'site prmote' feature of Looksmart which is very different than the regular $299 submissions.

I do agree that a site should max out on the 5 url thing though.

[french dread]

greetings chopsticks :)
what is the interest of the link to google cache in your signature? for popularity?

[chopsticks]

yabba. I'd have to say that having 5 different entries for the SAME URL is key. (note it's 5 entries in LookSmart/Zeal maximum per domain! i just kept everything at my top level domain and branched off into other categories for within their directory!)

also, having those multiple listings in LookSmart and Zeal also helped, I believe, in me getting accepted into DMOZ and Yahoo! on my first submission. (of course I am also in Business.com which helps too!)

----

the Keywords that I get to select are however the ONLY thing that's modifiable on a day to day basis. i.e. I didn't get to select my title or the description for my site (even with 5 entries)... so I've found that the keywords are the only way that LookSmart lets me run my own destiny!

(And even then I don't get to determine my site name or description... just what keywords the site is potentially going to show up for in a search!)

[chopsticks]

hiya french dread;

the g00gle link there is a multi-purpose unit:

A) in case my site is down or there is a netsplit you could access it.

B) because I put a javascript 'pull' (include) in there, if my site IS up then you'll be pulled to the main site (out of the g00gle cache)

C) because, yes, it increases link popularity. not necessarily for g00gle! ... but then again it's a circular logic (translation: shell game) scene with the search engines anyway. so if AltaVista, Inktomi or others find that link they should follow it and increase my relevancy/ranking as far as THAT search engine is concerned.

D) i have a theory (i have a dream!) that the number of times that the Cache of a certain URL is accessed is somehow quantified by g00gle. (my thinking is that since they don't track individual outgoing clicks on your URL from within g00gle itself that they probably do SOME kind of metrics, right? perhaps how many times people pulled the cached version? even if I'm wrong, which HAS been known to happen... it wouldn't seem like it would HURT me to have the link to the g00gle cache!)

[Advisor]

steal their brand name! Sounds like trademark infringement to me, and I wouldn't recommend it.

Jill

[chopsticks]

yeah, it's a good idea to not recommend trademark infringement. :)

So, I should have made that more clear in my first write-up!

Thanks for bringing that aspect to light Jill (WebWhiz). I woudln't have wanted anyone to misunderstand my intent.

====

keeping in mind the distinct legal definition is key! it would be trademark infringement >>IF<< the keywords in question (i.e. their 'brand') was indeed trademarked.

under international convention everything is considered to be copyrighted (even if they don't put "(C) 2002 - All rights reserved" yada yada yada).

****

however, it is important to understand the difference of what CAN and what CAN NOT be trademarked (or servicemarked).

standard speech can NOT be trademarked since the company/brand in question has NO CLAIM to the language itself.

i.e. one can register the trademark for the name "Kleenex" but not "Facial Tissue". Similarly one can not trademark "Fast Pizza", "Search Engine Optimization".

And it is VERY difficult to enforce trademark protection on words like 'Yahoo', 'Google', 'AltaVista' (which means "view from above" in Spanish).

...all of the last examples existed long before the World Wide Web gave a brand identity to their respective domain holders.

there was a famous court case whereby SEX.COM was threatened by Yahoo! for doing what's called 'prefix keywording'

examples: altavista.sex.com, monopoly.sex.com, backseatofa69chevy.sex.com, yahoo.sex.com

--> to make a long story longer SEX.COM received an email from Yahoo! indicating that they (Sex.com) would become the legal targets of Yahoo!'s claim to intellectual property violation. (under a clause that is essentially 'feathering one's nest at the expense of anothers rightful intellectual property').

Sex.com promptly filed a suit against Yahoo! for intimadation. Yahoo! backpeddled and apologized profusely. (Yahoo! never did file the lawsuit towards Sex.com, merely threatened do so with a 'cease and desist' type of legal statement).

The reason? Because the word 'Yahoo' is NOT trademarked. The word 'Yahoo' is not unique to the entity Yahoo! Inc.

Without the exclamation point '!' they don't have a brand.

(Simliarly other companies have followed Yahoo!'s lead like "HotelDiscounts!com" who uses the '!' instead of the '.' in .com for their logo).

===========

Just thought I'd share. Because Jill is definitely correctly that, the way I phrased it (with the word 'steal'!) was bad.

BAAAD CHOPSTICKS MONKEY!

I'm sure none of us WOULD recommend copyright, trademark, servicemark or patent infrigement (outright theft)!

But in order to OPTIMIZE one's directory and search engine listings one needs to COME UP IN THE SEARCH RESULTS next to or otherwise in the same quadrant or vector (Google terminology) as those that you are in the marketplace with.

To do anything less is to "give up" that portion of the marketplace!

I should have phrased it a bit more formally, rather than casually (which is my writing style). My bad!!

* (nicer term than 'steal') compete with your competition for the keywords that are legal to utilize. i.e. NOT registered trademarks!

* For those reading this who DON'T know: a registered trademark MUST be protected with a TM or a 'R' with a circle around it. If the trademark holder does NOT protect their term it will likely, but not guaranteed, to slip into the public domain.

* Any words that are already utilized or have meaning are very difficult to trademark. If the term is trademarked one should be able to verify that fact very easily with a few minutes of research.

+ Keep in mind that many words ARE trademarked but are not protected intensely! Half of the 'keywords' on the internet, from hotel names, titles of books/CDs/colognes/prescription drugs/casinos/etc. ARE trademarked.... (as is, strangely enough, the actor's name "Leonardo DiCaprio")!

* LookSmart / Google / OverTure, etc. are responsible for limiting trademark infringement. (They actually have 24 hours from the time they are notified of the infringing material to get it off of their machines or they are legally culpable).

====

Digital Millennium Copyright Act
(the text of which can be found at the U.S. Copyright Office Web Site, http://lcWeb.loc.gov/copyright/)

[Advisor]

Thanks for clarifying what you meant, Chopsticks. I agree with most of what you said, however, I think you may be mistaken about this point:...a registered trademark MUST be protected with a TM or a 'R' with a circle around it. If the trademark holder does NOT protect their term it will likely, but not guaranteed, to slip into the public domain. I'm not an attorney, but I believe that you don't actually have to register your trademark for it to still be considered your trademark. Nor do you have to use the TM or R symbol on them for them to be considered your trademark. Simply using the word(s) can often make them your trademark. For instance, take name Rank Write. Even before I decided to protect it for sure and register it as my trademarked name, I'm fairly certain that it was still my trademarked name. If someone in the same biz as me (SEO) tried to start using Rank Write as their own name, I could have most likely successfully sued them and won.

Having a trademarked name also means (to me) that others could not and cannot pay for the keyphrase "rank write" in a PPC engine. Nor can they optimize their site to rank high for those phrases and misrepresent or mislead visitors that they are somehow related to Rank Write.

On the other hand, my other site, High Rankings, is too generic to protect (which you did mention in your info).

But like I said, I'm not an attorney and all that is simply based on my understanding of the law. Rank Write is now trademarked and I had no problems obtaining the trademark for it, even those the two words are common words when used separately.

Jill

[chopsticks]

*grin* yeah, I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV.

But I believe that you don't have any real legal claim (i.e. a leg to stand on) in regards to a trademark if it's not registered. That's the key for the registered trademarks, servicemarks, and patents. Whoever gets it "on paper" first with the Federal Government "wins".

And, I believe that the reason you had such a minor issue registering the trademark "Rank Write" is because it's a play on words (double anton) since the common speech version would be "Rank Right".

Because there can, of course, be conflicts within who has what claim to what name. (Imagine how many "Panda Travels" companies there must be on the West Coast of the U.S., or how many "Sunset Bar & Grills" there may be in just one state like California).

---

I'm not sure if anyone else here in this thread (which is now way off topic so I'll stop rambling after this) had heard that, essentially EVERY search engine that took advertising revenue for placement (not inclusion but placement) was recently sued.

The only notable exception was Google (with their 'AdWords').

The company that brought suit was 'BodyShaping' -- and that was the keyword involved as well.

* This just happened in the last week or ten days. *

Basically the BodyShaping people were pissed because they were coming up something like #10 in Overture. Only Google escaped and it's probably because of the random nature of their AdWords. (But I'm not sure as to why they escaped being named in the suit; maybe not deep enough pockets?)

---

I guess we'll just have to wait and see how it all evolves!

I know a lot of us were fairly amazed when PriceLine.com got a patent for their business model (which is nothing more than a reverse price setting/binding price bid for the client). Truly not a NEW business model.. but PriceLine.com's application of the business model (on the WWW) was new so it was deemed unique in the marketplace.

**

My favorite trademark infringement story is of the guy down South (American South) who decided to name his company "MACROsoft". One would think it's as OPPOSITE from "MICROsoft" as you could get, right?!?

*heh* Well, his southern drawl was so pronounced that when HE spoke the syllable "MACRO" it SOUNDED LIKE "MICRO". *chuckle*

[Advisor]

The case was filed by "Body Solutions" (not Body Shaping).

As to whether or not one has to register their trademark for it to be theirs, here's what the Feds say about it:

Do I need to register my trademark?

No. However, federal registration has several advantages including notice to the public of the registrant's claim of ownership of the mark, a legal presumption of ownership nationwide, and the exclusive right to use the mark on or in connection with the goods or services set forth in the registration. You can read their entire faq here. (http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/tac/tmfaq.htm)

Edited in: Reading that faq further, you can apparently use the TM symbol even when you're not registered. You use the R with the circle once you're registered with the Feds.
Jill

[chopsticks]

Amazing! That's a great reference! I'm totally surprised to see that in many cases the Trademarks aren't regulated by the Feds at all... but rather, by the states. (Would seem like that could get rather confusing... so I guess that's when the Federal registration becomes critical)

Never even heard of these before --

* Certification mark, &
* Collective mark

I'm definitely going to read up on the resource you provided. Lots more details in the shadows! (International recognition of the trademark, etc. Example: How RealNames sells their RealNames services by country.... so somebody could, theoretically, register 'Rank Write' in another country and not be in violation?

Seems there are way more holes in the Trademark laws than I thought. It wouldn't take much now with Globalization to step outside the accepted boundries of today! (e.g. all of those off-shore casinos in the Isle of Man, etc... do those countries ever ratify and "get on board" with our Trademark regulation in the US?)

----

Here's a weird question (maybe WebWhiz can answer it):

* What is the netiquette or de facto standard for "name dropping"?

+ What about using keywords in a politically and legally correct way? It would seem like I could even increase my usage of certain terms (Yahoo!, Viagra, etc.) by a tag-line at the bottom like "Yahoo! is a registered trademark of Yahoo! Inc." or increase relevancy of a theme by "Viagra is a registered trademark of Pfizer. This website has no relationship with Pfizer Pharmaceutical"....

with an outbound link to www.viagra.com and www.pfizer.com, of to Yahoo.com, Yahoo! Travel, etc.

[Advisor]

Chopsticks, it's my understanding from what I've read through the years that you can use other company's trademarked names on your site only if you have a legitimate reason to do so. The scenario that you see a lot is within product comparisons, or authorized resellers.

This is why you'll see commercials with taste tests and stuff where they mention the competitor names. They did a taste test and are simply giving the results.

You could compare your products features with that of your competitor's and have a legitimate reason to use their trademarked name on your site (from what I understand). If you do this, I would imagine that you could then also use that trademarked name in your Meta tags (although simply having it on your site would probably help more for your rankings).

You may also have heard of the Playmate of the Year case which was recently won. The former Playboy Playmate was using the trademarked phrase, "Playmate of the Year" on her website. It was recently ruled that she had a legitimate reason to do so since she once held that title.


Again, I'm no attorney, this is simply my understanding of these matters!

Jill

[SteveB]

I'm a real estate broker and a Realtor. How would a trademark infringement be reported to Google? My concern are companies that use the trademark Realtor for a Google AdWord who are not members of the National Association of Realtors, NAR.

[Blue]

Hi SteveB, and welcome to the forums! :hi:

The following is from Google, Inc. Advertising Terms and Conditions (http://www.google.com/ads/conditions.html):6. Customer's Responsibilities. Customer is responsible for the selection of keywords, the content and display of advertisements, URL links, and IOs including any trademark issues associated therewith. Customer shall ensure that(a) Customer holds all rights needed to permit the use, reproduction, display, transmission and distribution of the advertisement and all contents therein ("Use") by Google; and (b) Google's Use, Customer's keywords, any data regarding users, and any material to which users can link, or any products or services made available to users through the advertisement will not (i) violate any criminal laws or third party rights; (ii) encourage conduct that would constitute a criminal offense or violate any law; or (iii) give rise to civil liability.

7. Advertisement Placement and Modification. Customer agrees (unless otherwise specified in an IO) that advertisements will be displayed whenever the selected keywords are entered in a search query, either alone or in combination with other terms. Customer may, in good faith, modify key words so long as the total value of an IO is not materially reduced. If Google receives a complaint from a third party alleging that the keywords or advertisements corresponding to an IO infringe the third party's trademark or other proprietary rights, Google shall have the right to disable the keywords or advertisements at issue.


If you have concerns, I would pop an email to ads-feedback@google.com as specified here (https://adwords.google.com/select/faq/guidelines.html#6).

[jglogau]

Hi:

There are three types of Intellectual Property law, copyrights, trademarks and patents (gross over simplification)

1. You can "create" a trademark via usage, over a number of years BUT you are much better off registering that mark with a State and/or Country. It’s the best proof of when you started to use that mark.

2. Trademarks must be defended or they become "diluted”. For example Xerox is no longer a trademark because he Xerox Corporation decided to stop taking people to court, like competitors. Coke still defends its Trademark by going so far as having “inspectors” go out to restaurants to make sure that waiters and waitresses say Pepsi if that restaurant doesn’t serve Coke.

3. Copyrights and Patents don’t get diluted; you can pick and choose whom you take to court.

jglogau

[jglogau]

chopsticks:

I get good results with LookSmart/MSN but I am not sure I understand what you're doing:

When you say 5 listings you mean 5 different catagories but you're still using the same 10 key pharses?

Then you say you have an additional 3 full listings where you added more keywords. I thought this was against LookSmart's policy.

Are you using other URLs? If that's the case do you use a different web site or different web page on the same web site on which you "tapped out" with the 5 catagories? Bottom line, how have you gotten beyond the 10 key phrase limit?

BTW, what you have accomplished almost seemd in conflict with the advice I've gotten from LookSmart's customer service people.

jglogau

[chopsticks]

I can see how you could be confused. I didn't explain properly that I had been grandfathered in.

i.e. I had 5 listings for one URL in LookSmart prior to their migration to the new pricing structure ($49 + $.15 a click)

their OLD model was to allow up to five different listings in their directory for the same URL.

[Webmaster T]

Americans have got it easy in Canada you can register your name with the city, a province or Federally and it is possible for three different companies to have the exact same name protected. Federal is strongest city isn't much more than a scrap of paper. It is more like a business license than a trademark but oddly enough is still some protection.

I was involved in the Toronto.com case in Canada, the Star (large Toronto daily) lost thank god! They were actually trying to stop people from using Toronto (biggest city in Canada) in any part of a dot com name based on trademark. Which really had me going since I own three good names with Toronto in it.

I have yet to use them for anything other than hosting my mail and DNS servers and a secure site. This case is just finishing up and the newspapers all got together and buried it. Only covered by one major paper in the States. It set a precedent in domain name disputes and got zilch coverage. That's how I meant my new best friend and legal counsel. And we all know why I need a friend who is a lawyer! Gave me a little instruction in being my sarcastic self without gettin' sued.;)

It was interesting in that my part in it was explaining to the lawyer how their trademark strategy was tied closely to search engine positioning and the advantages they would have over competitors.

As to the internet patents they are simply the result of a flawed patent system. A patent on shopping carts, 2 click shopping, links and host of others. They enforce them strictly and development of the net dies a quick and sudden death.

The Amazon one for 2 click shopping kills me that is like saying we have a patent on sound site development. What malarky and the US patent office should be ashamed of some of the utter shite that they have registered in the past. That is why there is all this litigation between the SE right now. I bet the US patent office would allow a patent on pickin' ur nose if you presented it just right.

[jglogau]

chopsticks:

Thanks for your response regarding your LookSmart Listings. I understand the grandfather aspect of your answer but you also said:

>> Then I added three full listings of keywords to drive traffic.

How is that related? Did you get another URL so you could go over the limit of 10 key phrases?

I am trying to figure out if I submit a sub page of my site to LookSmart they will accept it as a new URL, it is new content. LookSmart won't guarantee that up front and you could loss your registration fee.

jglogau

[chopsticks]

I added three more listings (seperate pages) to compliment my one URL mutliple listing (5 seperate listings for one URL).

The massive exposure for the first URL (with 5 listings) worked wonders for pagerank. The three seperate listings are great for "sniping" keywords (10 keywords per listing = 30 keyword variations)