Fantomaster Email Spam

[nuthin]

here's an e-mail that our customer got. he asked us for some advice about it all.

our customers web site is already #1 on google.com.au for 'ship builders' his industries leading keyword and like #4 on .com for the same term, along with a range of other high placements..

now why would our customer want to risk getting there domain banned or brand tarnished with this sorta crap?
try approaching web sites that don't rank for there industries leading keywords next time or better yet, stay the hell away from small to medium brick and mortar businesses in the AU namespace.

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I understand Paul Destefano has spoken to you by telephone and I have been asked to forward some relevant information to you directly. If you are not familiar with Fantomaster and the services we offer, please visit our site at www.fantomaster.com.au which is specific to our corporate services.


Alternatively, you can view the hundreds of articles and pages written by the founder of Fantomaster, Ralph Tegtmeier, available across the search engines. Ralph Tegtmeier is the most respected name and world renowned industry leader in the art of Cloaking.


It is important to note that the cost of our campaigns qualify for Austrade's Export Development Grant, allowing you up to 50% in campaign cost reimbursements. Thanks to the available Grant, your total cost for global reach offers a phenomenal ROI not available in any other export medium.


Our campaigns are available in sizes of 60 or 300 Shadow Domains. We recommend a minimum of 150 Shadow Domains in a very competitive industry, each one a web site in itself containing some 50,000 plus highly optimized pages (pure search engine spider fodder). Each campaign incorporates up to 200,000 plus keyword/phrases/search terms specific to your industry and web site. Each highly optimized algorithmically correct page reflects one single keyword. Each and every single Shadow Domain undergoes extensive SEO just like any normal web site, but on a scale of times 150! The result is over five million highly optimized pages directing between 10,000 to 100,000 (depending on your industry) qualified unique visitors daily, to your core web site! This is what we classify as a “mega” campaign which generates some very serious daily organic traffic.


A visitor to the Shadow Domain is re-directed to your core domain but a spider-bot remains at the Shadow Domain and sees only the highly optimized pages and accordingly, liking what it sees, indexes and then ranks the page on the top three pages of the Search Engine for that search term. Fantomaster owns the world’s only database of over 10,000 Search Engine spiders allowing each and every Shadow Domain to accurately detect a Search Engine spider visit.


When the word Cloaking is mentioned, many people believe that there is a real possibility of your core web site being penalized by the Search Engines if caught Cloaking. If that were true, then your competitor could build some cloaked domains and point them to your web site so that it would be penalized! Think of the damage that would be done if that was at all true. Not a very likely scenario, is it?


Your core web site is in no way part of the Cloaking infrastructure, except that it is the beneficiary of the targeted organic traffic generated by the campaign.


We house your 150 Shadow Domains on our high security servers, spread across numerous C-Blocks and each domain name is proxy registered so that no ownership is detectable. There is no visible connection between the Cloaking campaign and your business. The traffic could easily be coming from any number of thousands of affiliates so Search Engines would never take the risk of penalizing a core domain under these circumstances. If one of your Shadow Domains were to have its rankings affected due to a suspicion of Cloaking, we would simply build a new one!! Again, we have no knowledge of this ever happening.

There is currently no other technology available or search engine services firm which can offer the degree of sophistication we are providing with our proprietary 3D Context Delivery™ services.

Our services are designed for businesses committed to achieving global online success and serious about investing in an online marketing campaign which will achieve the desired spectacular results. Our client base is limited if not exclusive. Our policy is not to offer our world class services to the masses but to a select group of global businesses that can demonstrate stability, professionalism and long term online business goals.


We prefer to be very up front with the services we offer and the costs involved. As such, I have included a draft copy of our services Agreement which details the costs for a 150 Shadow Domain campaign.


If you believe our services are suitable for your online marketing strategies, we would be happy to discuss campaign specifics with you.


Regards

Bert Tassoni

Vice President

Fantomaster-Services

www.fantomaster.com.au

[WebSavvy]

What a pile of crap. Doug's going to have some fun with this one. :D

[nuthin]

you should see the attatchments. :eek:
each shadow domain has a cost of $750US per domain, total cost of the campaign is 150 shadow domains x 750 which = $112,500


thats just one example and is the bare minimum.
theres alot of other crap too, but i cringe when i read it.. so i won't dig any deeper.

[WebSavvy]

That's just unbelievable. Who in their right mind would pay that kind of money to a scam artist?

I know I sure wouldn't!

[JohnC]

WOW .. I'm speachless. :eek:

[ihelpyou]

But hey; Our industry "elites" over at searchenginewatch praise the fantamaster for his prowess and knowledge, right? They don't care what he actually does to hurt our industry.

Oh, and the highrankings forums also praises this guy. This is the crap we have in this industry.

[JohnC]

Fantomaster writes ...If one of your Shadow Domains were to have its rankings affected due to a suspicion of Cloaking, we would simply build a new one!! Again, we have no knowledge of this ever happening.Matt Cutts writes in a blog post just yesterday (http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/notifying-webmasters-of-penalties/) ...... if the webspam team detects a spammer that is creating dozens or hundreds of sites with doorway pages followed by a sneaky redirect, there’s no reason that we’d want the spammer to realize that we’d caught those pages.Good timing Matt. :D

BTW .. nuthin .. thank you for posting this .. I hope it gets the attention it deserves.

[ihelpyou]

I hope everyone reading this puts this email and this firm on a page of it's own on each one of your blogs or websites. And also links to the post by Matt Cutts on this exact same issue.

The goal is to put the spammers out of business. Period.

The idea of certain forums that "protect" these firms has got to stop. A boycott of the forums who protect spammers MUST take place. Isn't our industry and those we are trying to teach fed up with the hypocrisy in this industry?

I challenge Jill Whalen of highrankings and Danny Sullivan of searchenginewatch to also put this email from fantomaster in their forums as well, and to warn people about firms like this.

If you don't, you are a damn hypocrite. You got that fact? I can't be more clear about this.

Whalen and Sullivan love to "out" BIG firms who are spamming. They do it all the time. How big is big people? Why do you out certain firms for spamming, but protect other firms who spam? Isn't that ridiculous? LOL I would be very ashamed if I were you. Thank goodness I'm not you as I would not be able to sleep or live with myself.

[nuthin]

no worries John. :)

It's of great concern to me that companies like this are targeting uneducated local business owners in the AU namespace.

They obviously do not wish to educate the potential customer on best practice SEO for long term, long lasting results.

From experience local business owners only do business from the one domain and that means everything to them. Associating your company web site and company brand with shady SEO practices, you really are playing with fire.

It might be OK for some, but I highly doubt if the local business owner is presented with all the facts that they would agree to such a service.

& that what really gets to me.
Preying on the naive as Doug put it in the other thread.

[Irony]

It shocks me to see how shameless some people can be.

:barf+:

[g1smd]

I just read their email, and let me tell you how it sounds to me:


Alternatively, you can view the hundreds of spammy articles and bullshit pages written by the founder of Fantomaster, Ralph Tegtmeier, available across the search engines. Ralph Tegtmeier is the most respected name and world renowned industry leader in the art of Cloaking, a spammy method that can easily get your site banned.


It is important to note that the cost of our campaigns qualify for Austrade's Export Development Grant, allowing you up to 50% in campaign cost reimbursements, so we doubled the cost, and let your taxpayers fork out to boost our profits. Thanks to the available Grant, your total cost for global reach offers a phenomenal ROI not available in any other export medium, and a cosy living for all of us.


Our campaigns are available in sizes of 60 or 300 Shadow Domains (arbitary figures we picked out of nowhere, of course, but they sound impressive). We recommend a minimum of 150 Shadow Domains in a very competitive industry (well we would wouldn't we), each one a web site in itself containing some 50,000 plus highly optimized pages of spam (pure search engine spider fodder aka pure spam).

Each campaign incorporates up to 200,000 plus keyword/phrases/search terms specific to your industry and web site. Of course no industry could ever have that amount of keywords so we bulk up the rest with vi*gra and porn and random unrelated keywords too. Each highly optimized algorithmically correct page reflects one single keyword, i.e. we just repeat it again and again (using that word "algorithmically" makes it sound "so technical", and legitimate, right? Good. We charge extra for that).

Each and every single Shadow Domain is spam, and undergoes extensive SEO (we put the same repeated spammy words in the title and meta description too; cool!) just like any normal web site, but on a scale of times 150! The result is over five million highly optimized pages of pure spam directing between 10,000 to 100,000 (depending on your industry) qualified unique visitors daily, to your core web site!


We hope you didn't notice already that the figures for pages and domains that we quoted, don't really add up. Additionally, we hope you don't work out that each week, over 99% of the pages we have out there will deliver zero visitors. Check the figures again, as that is what they indicate, but we want to keep that quiet. What we do is mass spam in huge bulk, and hope that the combined visitors is enough to keep you happy, and keep you paying.


Of course there is no way that there are actually that number of people looking for your product, and we hope you don't check your logs, but we like making bullshit claims like that as they sound really impressive (and we can jack the price up a bit more too).

This is what we classify as a “mega” spam campaign which generates some very serious daily organic traffic. Of course, if we really sent you that amount of traffic, we would also be looking at the hosting of your normal site to make sure that it can cope with that traffic. Wouldn't want you to exceed your bandwidth just a few days into the month would we? Actually, as we are totally clueless, we don't mention it, and have no idea; and much less care.


A visitor to the spammy Shadow Domain is re-directed to your core domain but a spider-bot remains at the Shadow Domain and sees only the highly optimized spam pages and accordingly, liking what it sees, indexes and then ranks the page on the top three pages of the Search Engine for that search term. This technique is pure search engine spam, and many sites have been banned for this in the past. Fantomaster owns the world’s only database of over 10,000 Search Engine spiders (we made that up, just to make it sound impressive; everyone knows that there are only a few thousand bots, and only a few dozen are of any importance) allowing each and every Shadow Domain to accurately detect a Search Engine spider visit. Again, we charge you good for this unnecessary work.


When the word Cloaking is mentioned, many people think it is spam, and they are right. They believe that there is a real possibility of your core web site being penalized by the Search Engines if caught Cloaking. It is true, it could be banned, but we think we are clever enough to avoid it.

If that were already true, then your competitor could build some cloaked domains and point them to your web site so that it would be penalized! Of course we know that Google isn't that clever. Think of the damage that would be done if that was at all true. Not a very likely scenario, is it? We rely on you not knowing about the internet much and just believing us. We're expensive, so we must be legit right? Only cowboys charge you cheap.


Your core web site is in no way part of the Cloaking infrastructure (if you ignore the millions of cloaked links pointing at it, that is), except that it is the beneficiary of the targeted organic traffic generated by the campaign.

Google couldn't possible notice thousands of cloaked sites that lead to your site. Well, that is what we would like to believe, and that is what we would like you to believe too. You do believe it don't you? If you do you are a fool, but anyway we want fools to buy our product, because it makes us very rich. We actually don't give a toss how your site actually performs. We'll keep on billing you, and threaten that your ranks will fall when you stop paying us.


We house your 150 spammy Shadow Domains on our high security servers, spread across numerous C-Blocks and each domain name is proxy registered so that no ownership is detectable. We are doing our very best to hide our spam, as this method really sticks out like a sore thumb, and we know that once the network is detected the whole frigging lot will tumble like a pack of cards. Google doesn't always find these networks very quickly. We hope to milk you of funds for a good 6months to a year before it all falls in on itself.

We like to think that there is no visible connection between the Cloaking campaign and your business, except the cloaked links pointing at your site. We hope that Google can't detect them, and we hope that no-one turns you or us in to the webspam teams of the major search engines.

The traffic could easily be coming from any number of thousands of affiliates (well it could be, but affiliates don't usually cloak by the tens of thousands) so Search Engines would never take the risk of penalizing a core domain under these circumstances (they don't usually ban when it an affiliate, but for cloaking they take a really dim view of that, and we just hope that you or us don't get caught). If one of your spammy Shadow Domains were to have its rankings affected due to a suspicion of Cloaking, we would simply build a new one!! We are expert spammers, we buy domains in serious bulk just for this purpose. Again, we have no knowledge of this ever happening (our memory is very short, and we wouldn't tell you about the risks involved anyway).

There is currently no other technology available or search engine services firm which can offer the degree of sophistication in generating spam that we are providing with our proprietary 3D Context Delivery™ services. We love that name. It sounds so "technical" and maybe even like it could be a legitimate product. The word "context" is great, we love it. We hope you do too; you're paying for it.


Our services are designed for businesses committed to achieving global online success, through methods that all search engines abhor, and serious about investing in an online marketing campaign which will achieve the desired spectacular results; even more spectacular when the whole lot is discovered and banned (actually, they are for mugs who have no clue about the internet, and who have deep pockets that we are experts in emptying of all their cash, until it all caves in, and we blame it on a "change of algorithm" ... or something).

Our client base is limited (in intelligence) if not exclusive (in being fooled). We pick only the richest and most naive mugs that we can find.

Our policy is to get rich by selling something which we pass off as world class, and not available to the masses but only to a select group of naive global businesses that can demonstrate stability, professionalism and long term online business goals (actually businesses that have no clue and just pass our stuff through various clueless overworked managers to rubber stamp our outrageous bills). We utterly rape them for all the cash we can get, while putting their online presence in grave jeopardy.


We prefer to be very up front with the services we offer and the costs involved. This service is total spam. Your site could be banned from every search engine. As such, I have included a draft copy of our services Agreement which details the costs for a 150 Shadow Domain campaign (a figure we made up, to get the bill into an area we think you can just about afford).


If you believe our services are suitable for your online marketing strategies, then you must be a total pillock, and the biggest mug we have ever met - and believe me, we have met a few in our time. We would be happy to discuss campaign specifics with you. We hope to empty your pockets soon.

[Connie]

G1 I think you did a great job in interpreting that e-mail. :up:

What surprises me is the fact that Fantomaster would send out something like that revealing so many details about how he Spams the SEs. You never know when you send out a e-mail whose hands it will fall into.

This time it fell into the wrong hands.

[WebSavvy]

No, Connie ... I think this time it fell into the right hands. Hands that would expose it for the walking pile of sh*t that it is. :D

[ihelpyou]

Right hands indeed!

If sent to someone at sew or hr, it would have been hidden away and never to be seen in public. OR: the member would have posted it, and either sullivan or whalen would have deleted ALL names mentioned so as to PROTECT fantomaster. Isn't that the most pathetic bunch of crap?

GREAT stuff g1smd! :up:

[Irony]

Thanks, G1!

It's a long time since I last laughed so hard! :lol: :up:

[Blue]

Originally posted by Connie
.... You never know when you send out a e-mail whose hands it will fall into. .... The problem as I see it is there are plenty of unsavory folks out there that need SEO services whose business ethics fall squarely in line with the great and powerful fantoshysters of the world.

Now, these business folks may be very savvy in hiding their guerilla marketing tactics to the public in general, putting on a false front so to speak, making them look to the unobservant as if they are as clean as the driven snow.

This, in turn, leads those very same unobservant to believe that the tactics the unsavory business folk have employed actually are a good thing because 'such a squeaky-clean company as the one in question must have gotten to the top by using squeaky-clean methods'.

So, again in turn, these unobservant fall into the clutches of the PT Barnomasters of the world by being duped twice.

It is, IMO, the only way spamtomaster and his ilk could possibly survive.

And it is why we have to look upon this as a battle. We are like the knights of the round table, defending the innocent and unobservant.

Get my drift?

[Quadrille]

Good analogy.

Not perfect; Sir Doug is fine, Sir Blue is OK, but Sir Deb and Sir Connie? ;)

And I can live with the Shyster of Nottingham - but there seem to be more Shysters than towns to be shyster of :D

[Interventor]

I am a regular contributor to these forums so I am going to change my identity for this one and only post to avoid being beaten to a pulp!

I am a little disturbed as to what I am reading here.

Although I am far from being a supporter of spamming I do know for a fact that Fantomaster is a legitimate long standing business, well respected among large companies employing cloaking strategies.

My friends, we may consider cloaking unethical and immoral but it is NOT illegal and this thread reeks of serious defamation and character assassination on unfounded accusations.

I make my point here because several years ago I worked for a large business that contracted Fantomaster on a very large campaign and paid mega bucks for it.....more then what is being stated in this thread. They delivered and the results, unfortunately, were and remain more then impressive. Fantomaster is respected on many forums I participate in and I have yet to read of anyone being "scammed". In fact, Ralph Tegtmeier is a highly respected individual, notwithstanding his support of spamming.

Accuse me of supporting spammers if you will but my point is only that we cannot name businesses or individuals and accuse them blatantly of "scamming" or "ripping people off" without any basis for such accusations. Not unless you are willing to face the wrath of some serious and expensive litigation.

That's my say and my first and last post on the matter.

Thanks.

[ihelpyou]

No need for a welcome. I'm happy you are honest and are using another username.

Since you feel the way you do, why use another name to begin with. Aren't you proud of the fact you ARE supporting spammers who cheat the major search engines for their own personal gain, and do so at the expense of other competitors who "play by the rules? Of is that concept foreign to you?

It must be.
Although I am far from being a supporter of spamming I do know for a fact that Fantomaster is a legitimate long standing business, well respected among large companies employing cloaking strategies.
LOL You state you are "far from being a supporter of spamming, then you state that firm is legitimate? LOL

Well respected? LOL

By whom?

Please, give me a break.

As far as this thread goes,.... bring on the spammers buddy.

[ihelpyou]

From the email:
Our campaigns are available in sizes of 60 or 300 Shadow Domains.
hmm. Not illegal? I'd love to see this litigated in a courtroom someday.

How about misleading and false advertising?

How about misleading potential clients into believing they will never be caught by Google or Yahoo or MSN or any other engine of the day?

I'd love to hear a spammer prove in court that they have "never" had a client banned by the se's. Show the proof. LOL

[ihelpyou]

BTW: Now knowing where your computer resides, it really dwindles down the possibilities of your other username. :)

Matter of fact; I know exactly "who" you are, and I'm not surprised in the least why you just posted why you did, and are doing so while being "hidden" to the world.

Why are you here anyway?

A regular contributer?

I don't think so.

Yes; A contributer "elsewhere", but not here. Only here when you want to stir up trouble. You are the "one" person I know of who would defend a spammer and have done so on numerous occasions.

[Quadrille]

Originally posted by Interventor
I am far from being a supporter of spamming I do know for a fact that Fantomaster is a legitimate long standing business, well respected among large companies employing cloaking strategies.Re-read that para carefully.

you say 'far from being a supporter of spamming', then go on to defend a self-confessed spammer.

So either you are a fool, a fibber - or a troublemaker.

Of course the fantoshyster is respected by people who employ spam - doesn't make him any more honest, though, does it?

He's a self-confessed cheat, and you 'half support' him, but haven't the courage to get right up there.

[ihelpyou]

Gee; Isn't a Professional defined as one who teaches and "helps" people the best way possible?

How is helping a client spam the search engines actually helping the client? Don't you think that client would be MUCH better off by "FIXING" their REAL website? What's soooo damn tough about that?

I think the fantomeister and "you" should ask Sony about cloaking and spam, and why they decided the "best" way was to actual fix their REAL website.

You can spin for the spammer machines all you wish but the bottom line is if you spam the search engines, you WILL get caught. Then what is that "large" company going to do?

I challenge the fantomeister to "show" ME his client's websites. Oh, he won't do that? Wonder why? Gee; Is it because he is cheating and stealing? Yep.

[Blue]

Originally posted by g1smd
I just read their email, and let me tell you how it sounds to me: Simply brilliant G1!!! :D

[Rankenstein]

This thread has been dwelling on my mind today.

You see, if a guy like Fantomaster does deliver traffic and his clients know that what he's doing is shady, then what is wrong with that?

I'll tell you what I think is wrong with it, (and I DO think it is wrong) and it isn't that cloaking is automatically bad. I'm not a dogmatic guy like Doug, and if no-one is actually being deceived (e.g. a surfer clicks on a result for used widgets and arrives at a page about used widgets) then that's OK by me. I'm a libertarian by nature.

What I hate is when I click on a page, expecting to find used widgets, and get a links page, click on that, go through to another links page etc. etc and you find out you're stuck in the middle of a stupid, stupid site like http://kisenteai.co.uk. That's my bugbear but that doesn't apply in this case, I think.

No, here's why I think what Fantomaster is doing is wrong. Any good SEO should be endeavouring to make their clients site as SEO friendly as possible. Any SEO who says that that isn't the best strategy for their client is a liar.

If their client doesn't want to do that, knows the risks involved, is prepared to pay this Tegtmeier guy to do his thing - my response would be either to ignore them if they are below me, maybe (or probably not) turn them in if they are above me. The site I mentioned is one place above me for a certain phrase, BTW.

No, as I say, any SEO who doesn't acknowledge and directly advise their clients that best practice is to work on their site and make it rankworthy, rather than work on schemes that add no value whatsoever to their site - well, no client should ever have the misfortune to do business with them.

And hundreds of spammy pages? No no no no no. It's just, I struggle to find the words but: inelegant; inept; embarrassing; feeble; lacking elan....that kind of thing.

I would honestly have no ranks whatsoever than do that kind of thing. Actually I was ordered point blank to do cloaking by some managers once and I refused even though it could have meant my job. I will only work on actual sites.

Anyway, that's my feelings on the matter. I'm off to Spain on holiday for a week. Laters.

(Oh yeah, G1s post was very funny.)

[Quadrille]

Originally posted by Rankenstein
If no-one is actually being deceived (e.g. a surfer clicks on a result for used widgets and arrives at a page about used widgets) then that's OK by me. What about the searchers, who were served up the cheat's site higher than it otherwise would have been?

What about the hard working, honest owners of the sites displaced by the cheating methods.

once you use an honest word, like cheat, then you start to recognize that these cheats don't do it for fun, or as part of a 'battle to get fairer results in Google' - or any other BS.

These cheats do it for profit; profit that rightfully should have been someone else's.

Not so much a queue-jumper, as the mugger at the cash machine.

[ihelpyou]

You see, if a guy like Fantomaster does deliver traffic and his clients know that what he's doing is shady, then what is wrong with that?
I agree with "most" of your post.

But What's wrong with that? The fact that fantomaster or his client does not give a damn about the internet as a whole. They don't give a damn about assuring the integrity of OUR industry. They don't give a damn about the breaking of ALL guidelines the search engines have in place, nor about breaking the "known" ethical and moral guidelines they both should have in regards to their very own competitors.

Would it be okay if a plumber didn't abide by the guidelines set by his industry, and all other plumbers simply let him do what he wanted to do? How about a Doctor? There are no laws set in stone about how one doctor treats one patient, and another doctor treats another patient with the same disease. Both doctors know there are guidelines and rules set that they follow. Would other doctors care if one doctor was simply allowed to do as they wished?

Oh sure, "every" spammer always says the page that the visitor eventually lands on is "relevant" to the query. By who's standards,... the spammer's? Who is the enforcer of that page if the cloaker is allowed to do business with inpunity? Where does it end if a cloaker is able to do as they please? If you allow that cloaker and his client to do as they please, why not spammers who hide links and text on the page then? Where would you stop the spam exactly?

Guidelines are there for a reason. To actually believe a client is knowledgeable enough to "know" that cloaking is what they want to do, just on the say-so of that cloaker advicing them, is really being very naive about the issue. It's our industry's duty as a Professional industry to teach about the best and the right ways to achieve success. That Doctor does not simply ask the advice of a patient, and then does what the patient wants them to do, right? Why should someone who "thinks" they are a Professional simply do as that "large" company wants done? I'm VERY sure that fantomeister does NOT actually teach a client as to the ways of best practices as that would put his business model..... out of business.

A spammer only thinks about his own personal welfare and has zero regard to our industry OR the search engines in general. Are these the types of people our industry wants? NO ONE could possibly answer that in the affirmative.

[ihelpyou]

If no-one is actually being deceived (e.g. a surfer clicks on a result for used widgets and arrives at a page about used widgets) then that's OK by me.
hmm.

Actually about 4 groups of people are being very deceived.

search engines

searchers... who expect the engines to deliver "fair" results

other SEO's ... who expect the industry to have the same set of guidelines

competitor's of that cloaked site .... who expect businesses in their industry to also not cheat.

The client of the cloaker..... the client hired the cloaker. The client's real site NEVER gets fixed. The client has to pay the cloaker continuously, otherwise the client stops getting the referrals. Once stopped, the client is left with what he started with.... a website that does not work.

Yeah, that's a good thing for the industry, right?

The internet as a whole..... if the internet allowed anything and everything to run freely, where would things end?

I would say there are "many" people who are harmed by cloakers.

If one were to say that detecting the IP of a search engine spider should be okay and dandy, then all cloaking would be okay and dandy no matter what the landing page would be about, right? You can't distinguish "this" cloaked domain to "that" cloaked domain, can you? Cloaking is either cheating, or it isn't. It can't be both.

[ihelpyou]

Something else.

Let's say you have a contest to find the very best "seamstress" in the world.

You have thousands of seamstresses that are required to sew a certain type of blouse, and they will be judged on the quality of work completed by giving that blouse the largest dollar payout.

The judges are sitting up there and have to vote on what blouse is "more relevant".

But low and behold, one seamstress wants to show the judges a blouse done "this way", but then wants the actual payout to be to the blouse done another way. In other words, that seamstress wants a different blouse judged on, and wants the payout to the 'other' blouse/seamstress.

The seamstress/cloaker wants to show the judges/engine one blouse/page, and then wants the payout/position to be to another blouse/page.

Is that fair?

That's what the cloakers/spammers are telling us. They want to show the engines one page to be judged, then make a bait and switch to get a different page in the serps.

But yes; we have people in this industry like "interventor" claiming that fantomeister is well-respected. By whom? Fellow spammers?

LOL

[WebSavvy]

Originally posted by Interventor
My friends, we may consider cloaking unethical and immoral but it is NOT illegal and this thread reeks of serious defamation and character assassination on unfounded accusations.
nuthin posted the entire contents of the email. What's contained there speaks volumes. What's being said is not defamation nor is it character assissanation. For either of those things to be true they would have to have been said without proof (e.g., the email is the proof). Also, what's been said would have to be a lie, and ... it isn't.

Originally posted by Interventor
Accuse me of supporting spammers if you will but my point is only that we cannot name businesses or individuals and accuse them blatantly of "scamming" or "ripping people off" without any basis for such accusations.
No one said they were "scamming" or "ripping people off" ... read the thread again.

If you're referencing my comments when I said:
That's just unbelievable. Who in their right mind would pay that kind of money to a scam artist?

I know I sure wouldn't!
My comments do not in any way, shape, or form, even remotely insinuate that he or his company are deceiving his clients or that he is not delivering said services for fees rendered.

That is your interpretation, not mine. How you misinterpret what's actually been said is not my problem.

To clarify so you're able to understand without ambiguity:

An "artist" or "artisan" means: a skilled worker who practices some trade or handicraft.

Scam means: to defraud

By his own words, he has perfected his skills as a cloaker (e.g., artist, artisan)

Also by his own words, he cloaks (which means to deceive and deception is fraud) and therefore by cloaking he is defrauding/scamming the search engines.

So, we can conclude that the combination of one being considered an artisan, who cloaks (defrauds/scams search engines) he is in effect, a "scam artist."

Does this make things a little clearer for you now? I certainly hope so.

[Connie]

Does this make things a little clearer for you now? I certainly hope so.
If Interventor is who I suspect nothing anyone says will make a difference to him, simply because he likes to put a spin on things in an attempt to confuse the issue.

[CarolineBogart]

This is a great thread. Thank you all for posting.

Libel, slander and legality aside for a moment, the letter proposes bannable methods. If enough people get angry the SEO business would be forced to police itself. I just don't see this kind of scam getting prosecuted. There are hundreds of penny stock scams, too. Laws get created when enough people get hurt, but since SEO is an international business, what are the chances of an international anti-scam agreement coming up at the next State Dinner agenda?

Just my 2c on the cloaker interventor apologist, all things being equal (he really is a regular contributor afraid of getting beaten up and not lying about that), one can simultaneously have an opinion and be afraid of the crowd. That's why God invented the fear of Public Speaking.

I'm wondering, SEW and Whalen support this fellow? Why would that be? Any theories on why people who can afford to be pure would be anything but pure?

[ihelpyou]

Hi Caroline,

He "claims" being a "regular" contributor. Fact is that he is "not". Not by any stretch. That was convenient for him to state for obvious reasons.

Sullivan and Whalen? It's obvious why they do; ... Greed, at the expense of the industry. We have known this for along time now. It's the very reason any firm who calls themselves "pure" but back slap the spammers and co-mingle like some kind of family. It's the biggest problem this industry has going. It's all about the money.

[Irony]

Originally posted by CarolineBogart
I'm wondering, SEW and Whalen support this fellow? Why would that be? Any theories on why people who can afford to be pure would be anything but pure?

We are still trying to answer this question fully, Caroline.

In 2004 I registered at SEW, full of new hopes... thought I'd find a pure white hat place there... but found a spammers heaven. It was a place where spammers were guarded and protected, while white hats could be freely insulted ot anything - and no moderator would ever interfere. It was a sad disappointment, but useful to me, as I lost some illusions after that.

As for Jill Whalen... well... see for yourself :)

SEW (http://www.ihelpyou.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18974#post193304). It's an old thread, and you will find many well known SEO folks there. In a way, enlightening.

I wrote a few articles myself, trying to figure out why so many white hat practitioners feel they need to get mixed up with spammers in business and friendship... but I'm still not sure I got all the answers.

SEO, Spam, and the Confusion (http://www.ihelpyou.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19120&perpage=10&pagenumber=2#post205711) is one of them.

[JohnC]

Hi Caroline and Welcome to IHY (missed you earlier .. :) )

In my opinion SEW and HR both have honorable intentions on the surface. Under the surface layers is not a specific attempt to undermine this industry, but more a lack of caring about what their actions (or lack of action) create. As long as they maintain their status as "elite" and keep making money off of it, they will not change no matter what happens to the industry as a whole.

The "good of the few out-weigh the good of the many" mentality is not one you will find around here.

[Quadrille]

Originally posted by CarolineBogart
(he really is a regular contributor afraid of getting beaten up and not lying about that)Did you forget the "IF" at the front :)

'IF' he is who I think he is - and I'm pretty sure - then he's a regular visitor, but not one who often has anything useful to say.

If he was a regular contributor, then he'd have started a lively discussion - but had nothing to fear.

Which tends to confirm my suspicions ;)

[CarolineBogart]

Originally posted by ihelpyou
Hi Caroline,

He "claims" being a "regular" contributor. Fact is that he is "not". Not by any stretch. That was convenient for him to state for obvious reasons.
Yes that was obvious. I'm not doubting your judgment, just slicing the pie a little thinner about motivations.

[CarolineBogart]

Originally posted by JohnC
Hi Caroline and Welcome to IHY (missed you earlier .. :) )

...
The "good of the few out-weigh the good of the many" mentality is not one you will find around here.

Thanks, and hello.

Corruption by greed is just human. Thank goodness there are exceptions.

[CarolineBogart]

Originally posted by Quadrille
Did you forget the "IF" at the front :)

'IF' he is who I think he is - and I'm pretty sure - then he's a regular visitor, but not one who often has anything useful to say.

If he was a regular contributor, then he'd have started a lively discussion - but had nothing to fear.

Which tends to confirm my suspicions ;)

Hi - the way I worded it was meant to imply the "if." "All other things being equal..." was meant to say, if one can believe his words -- which I'm willing to stipulate for a quick moment to make a point -- ...

I don't doubt that you guys know your users. "If" was implied.

If I were younger and still had battles and that kind of energy in me, I would consider creating a nickname to express myself but avoid ostracisim.

I'm not younger, I don't have those kind of battles in me, so donthca worry :)

[ihelpyou]

Many elsewhere in this industry wish to "shut me/us up" Caroline. If you read anywhere else you can clearly see that fact. This place is the "only" place that wants change in this industry and wants to rid the industry of the Greed among those in this industry who have the "podium" ... right now.

We will not allow that to happen. No one can shut us up as we are for the "regular folk" who are trying to learn. Most out there could give a shite about the regular folks. We do. All they care about is how they can back slap each other for their own selfish interests with zero regard to the greater good of this industry.

Those who take money from a "known" search engine spammer.... for any reason, need to be outed and stopped. Even Google is guilty of this..... the one beef I have with the se's in general.

The industry as a whole just doesn't care about true education if it conflicts with their self-interests.

It's people like the member in this thread who try their very best to dis-credit us in here. It's been happening for a long time. Only those who will not waver and who have the courage to drive change are the people who truly understand where I and We are coming from. In every industry in history, change only happens when there are people who don't "ride the fence" and have a clear message. Most out there don't give a clear message.

[Quadrille]

Originally posted by CarolineBogart
If I were younger and still had battles and that kind of energy in me, I would consider creating a nickname to express myself but avoid ostracisim.If you were, and still had, I suspect you'd be happy to fight those battles under your own name.

No-one gets ostracized for fighting an honest battle; they might get ostracized for being devious and cowardly, surely?

This bloke isn't really frightened of being ostracized, he's frightened of an honest battle, and always was.

[Connie]

"ride the fence"
Just to summarize what Doug said. Jill and many others who are supposedly white hat "ride the fence".

IMHO Spammers put up with Jill because she actually helps them, in spite of her claims of being a "white hat". I don't think any Spammer respects her for speaking with a forked tung.

How can you respect anyone who speaks out of both sides of their mouth?

Thanks to Doug, this forum proclaims a very clear message. Some people may not like it but there is no doubt where we stand.

What motivates each of us may very but in the end there is one common tie that binds.

We want to protect and teach those new to SEO the correct way to do things, and what to avoid.

In regard to age, I'm just an "Ol MO Hillbilly". I'll be 62 this month. I feel no need to hide my identity anywhere.

Why should anyone need to hide there identity? Your either post your convictions, or you post to create controversy IMHO. Either way you should be proud of who you are.

[CarolineBogart]

I'm clearly naive about much of the issue, but the genuine and true nature of the forum posters is as clear as day.

It's a pleasure to meet you all.

[CarolineBogart]

Originally posted by Quadrille
If you were, and still had, I suspect you'd be happy to fight those battles under your own name.
I'm pretty sure that's why I'm old

No-one gets ostracized for fighting an honest battle; they might get ostracized for being devious and cowardly, surely?
I wish that were true.

This bloke isn't really frightened of being ostracized, he's frightened of an honest battle, and always was.
I do believe you are right. I was prolly just putting too much of myself in the intent.