What If You Got An E-Mail Like This?

[Rankenstein]

Suppose you aren't an SEO, OK? You have a website and want to get it to rank.

If you received an e-mail that used your name, and gave some advice on specific areas of your site. Pointed out a broken link or two. Said you should consider at least doing X, Y and Z to improve your rank. Stuff that only applies to the site in question. Then the e-mail turns into a pitch for the SEO job. Finally it says in a way that you genuinely believe: "If you don't want us to do SEO for you, at least if you like we can help you select a different company - no charge."

Basically, spam. I know. But spam that is helpful. If you took the advice in the e-mail you would be better off. At least you would fix the broken links or something.

See, I can't believe that type of e-mail is a bad thing. Is there such a thing as 'good' spam? Or perhaps a better phrase is 'useful' spam?

Whaddya think?

[WebSavvy]

I'm not an SEO and I do get emails like this. They are commercial emails that are unsolicited (UCE) which if not stated in the email subject line are an advertisement, they're in violation of the Federal CAN-SPAM Act.

These types of "offers" :rolleyes: visit my bit bucket as soon as they hit my inbox.

If I wanted their "services", I'd have contacted them and not the other way around.

If their services were so good and in such hot demand, they'd be too busy working on client sites and wouldn't have the time to spam me in the first place. If they have the time to spam me, something tells me their skills are "low-quality" for starters and why on Earth would I trust a site I've spent so many years developing, to the likes of a "spammer" ... I would NEVER hire them, EVER.

[Blue]

Yes it is useful.

Useful at identifying the sender as a spammer who ignores and is in viloation of the CAN-SPAM Act.

Not the type of company I'd like to hire.

So, it is very useful indeed! :)

If it was NOT inviolation of the CAN-SPAM act (I have yet to see a commercial email of this sort that isn't) I'd consider contacting them if I currently had no SEO currently, but if I already did I probably wouldn't as I most likely would have done my due diligence on the firm I currently employed.

That's me from an Internet-savvy POV, however, and I suspect that you are talking about regular 'ol Joe Website Owner who has less experience. In that case, I suspect these types of emails (whether or not they are UCE) are specifically targeted at the inexperienced and the innocent, and most likely come from either spammers, the unscrupulous, or those that are new.

[JohnC]

ok ... I agree with the above.

Now here's another question. Is there any way to use email as a first contact without it being considered spam? Not that I am going to, but with so many people trying to use email this way, is there a way they could be doing it right or is email completely off limits until previous contact has been made?

Just curious about opinions. :)

[WebSavvy]

Rather than blind emailing, visit the site first. If the site owner has a "contact us" form on their site, use that form to contact them. That's what the form is there for.

If that site owner is interested in what you have to say once they get your message, they'll get back to you and probably request more information.

Doing things that way eliminates being labeled a spammer, and eliminates the potential violations with regard to the CAN-SPAM Act, ... AND you're less likely to piss anyone off.

[JohnC]

Originally posted by savvy1
Rather than blind emailing, visit the site first. If the site owner has a "contact us" form on their site, use that form to contact them. That's what the form is there for.That's a great suggestion Deb, but what happens when the "contact us" is an email link like SO many are ? ... :)

[Rankenstein]

Originally posted by savvy1
Rather than blind emailing, visit the site first. If the site owner has a "contact us" form on their site, use that form to contact them. That's what the form is there for.

Ah, savvy1, that is a good answer!

Let me add, I'm working 'in-house' and don't do what I was saying in the first post. Just in case anyone was about to fix their beady eye on me.

Anyway, savvy answered what JohnC asked, which is really what I was sort of asking. :)

edited to add: Ah, JohnC, that is a good parry!

[WebSavvy]

If it's an "email link" on their website then contact them but state specifically that you visited their site and found they do not have a contact us form on their site, but do list a contact email and cite the URL.

This informs them right away that you did physically go to their site and look as how else would you know that they do not have a contact us form, but have the email link, and you're providing them the exact url of the page the email link lives on.

Doing these things, you've already removed yourself from being classified as the "average spammer" who uses email harvesting software.

[ihelpyou]

The way that email was worded makes it spam.

I'm thinking if the sender would have simply gave them "advice" with NO mention of who they are at all, it would not have been spam. Just free advice from someone anonymous. No business email return address except from maybe a gmail account. No mention of their name,.... just advice. They could have also said something like:

"If you feel like this advice was good, or if you feel like you may need some further consultation, please reply back with a good time to call you to discuss things."

Now; if the email was completely free of any link, and no mention of who the sender was/is in any way, shape, or form, it would not be spam. Do you see? This way you are leaving it strictly up to the site to reply back if they wish for "further info". Oh, and of course make the email "personal" in nature by using the owner's name, etc.

[JohnC]

Originally posted by ihelpyou
Just free advice from someone anonymous. I understand your point Doug, but umm.. "free anonymous advice" would probably hit the trash as fast as normal spam from my inbox ... hehe. :)

[ihelpyou]

Yep, but at at least it's the receiver's choice and the sender cannot be labeled a spammer by anyone.

[SEFL]

Whether or not the information was in any way helpful is immaterial. Chances are it's the same kind of thing that you, I, or anyone else operating a site could receive simply by visiting a board JUST LIKE IHELPYOU FORUMS (Mick Foley cheap pop, way cool) and asking for general design advice.

So the advice, in and of itself, isn't worth all that much simply because it's easy enough to attain.

As far as whether or not to deal with them...how did they even find you in the first place? If not via a search engine lookup, it's at least through some other online marketing effort you're making.

Blackhats and spammers are a lazy lot by nature...they're not going to search sixteen levels deep for a sucker when one will suffice.

In other words, treat it as spam. Implement the advice if you want...hey, they were dumb enough to give it away for free looking for bling bling. But treat it as spam.

[Comeran]

I don't like receiving e-mails that I didn't ask for, even if they would be helpful. I wouldn't buy something from a spam message no matter how bad I needed it.

That being said I HAVE sent people messages letting them know that their site had broken links, or something wrong that stopped mozilla from working etc etc but I never pitched them to fix it, I was just a visitor letting them know the site wasn't working properly.

I do see what you mean about needing a way for a first contact, and the truth is no matter what you do it seems that you will be having some sort of spam, be it e-mail, snail mail, or cold call..... it is a catch 22 that I really can't answer.

90% of our business comes from word of mouth, and the other 10% comes from advertising on the radio, web, search engines, magazines, and first time contacts in bars, restaurants, etc.

One thing you could do is ask all of your clients for referrals after you are done with their project. Chances are they know other website owners or business owners that need your services, and if you did right by them they would talk to them for you letting them know what a great job you did..... we don't ask for referrals but we get a LOT of this type of business.... I had a guy call me and ask what I could do for him. He said he was happy with his current webmaster BUT he was golfing, and some guy behind him heard he had a site and told him he HAD to call me, he ran to his car (a 5 min run) and came back with my card.... he asked if I was a son or friend and the guy told him no, just a normal customer.... he said he wanted to know what I do that would make that guy go that far to suggest me.... I got that client.

I think the best thing you can do is ask for those referrals for now, and make sure you always make each client happy.

Best of luck.

Comeran-

[Connie]

Going back to the original question, I delete all e-mail like that before it is ever downloaded to my PC.

I refuse to download Spam. I certainly will not respond to Spam and yes this e-mail was spam.

[TiMoGo]

OK... for the record.. I have never sent out an e-mail like the one in question. I never even considered it really. However, the question has made me think a bit about WHAT is spam?

I know the "clinical definitions. But an e-mail like this seems ok to a point. I think that perhaps there is a middle ground.

Let's just take a "real world" example....

You are a glass repair person. You are on your lunch break, and just out for a walk by a shopping center. You go into a store and are just kinda looking around when suddenly, out of nowhere, in a feat that is absolutely astounding, a dog jumps through the window to get to a bone. (The dog is ok, but runs off with the bone).

The owner of the shop says, "gee, I don't know what to do".

Would it be bad to hand the guy your card and say that you could fix it that afternoon? Wouldn't it actually be kinda rude just to walk away and not offer your assistance?

Now... on the same token, if you are looking around the internet, which a lot of SEO types do a lot, and come across a broken site (however that is defined), wouldn't it be rude to NOT offer your services?

Again, just another look at the obvious... IMHO.

[Connie]

I know the "clinical definitions. But an e-mail like this seems OK to a point. I think that perhaps there is a middle ground.
To me the middle ground is in they eye of the webmaster.

I either delete the spam or I don't. I don't care that much about the Spam Can Act. I view e-mail as spam based on whether I asked for it or not.

I do not respond to any e-mail spam regardless of whether they have visited my site or not.

[JohnC]

TiMoGo,

Please don’t take offence at this, but I hate it when people try and compare Internet Commerce or BtoB relationships with brick and mortar retail ones. While there are base similarities there are also differences almost every time that make the two examples non-compatible.

In your example, the shop owner had a previous relationship with the glass repair guy just by noticing him walk in the door and if he didn’t even see that, just by the fact that he was in "his" shop physically.

An example closer to how it works on the internet would be ...

Shop has broken window for everyone to see and had been that way for quite some time, odds are the shop owner thinks it's supposed to be that way. Then one day the wind blows a bunch of business cards through the window and one of them happened to be for the window repair guy. Remember, the shop owner does not even realize his broken window is a problem. My guess it they all get thrown away.

[TiMoGo]

Ok.. John... I get your point... However, I don't think your analogy is any closer than mine.

Perhaps if the window was broken before the guy went into the shop to look around, and he mentioned something to the shop owner without the shop owner bringing it up, that would be closer to what I meant.

However, I do base a lot of decisions about my online business as if they are for a brick & mortar businesses. And while there are distict differences, they are still businesses.

I guess what I am saying, to stay with the same analogy...

If the guy hands his card to the business owner, he is not doing something wrong, IMO. However, if a telemarketer called the store owner, not knowing if any glass needed to be repaired or replaced, that would be like SPAM.

Just like when I am out to dinner with people and I hear people talking about their online business not doing so well. I always hand them my card. I don't give them a sales pitch, I even try to say that it is a work related conversation that I would rather talk about while working, but it would be foolish for me not to mention that I could help them. It is standard networking.

My point is this... If you see something broken, and you have the ability to fix it, isn't it kinda your responsibility to offer assistance?

As for the not relating the two types... I get your point, I just choose to disagree. To ignore lessons learned in my brick & mortar businesses just because my current business is mostly online, would be foolish.

I network, it comes from my background in sales, but I guess what I am saying is that there is a differnce between handing someone your card that may need your services, and just randomly dumping your card onto windshields in the parking lot.

[JohnC]

Originally posted by TiMoGo
windshields in the parking lot. There you go, that is brick and morter spam ... LOL

I agree buisiness is business and some fundimental facts will not change. However, to many times I talk to people (not meaning you here :) ) and they place WAY to much emphasis on "how it's done" offline. The internet is a brand new world with new rules and new behaviors applicable to both business owner and customers. :)

[TiMoGo]

Originally posted by JohnC
The internet is a brand new world with new rules and new behaviors applicable to both business owner and customers. :)
I do absolutely agree with this. It is kind of a bummer that we narrowed this down so quickly... I was in the mood for a good fight! LOL :cheers:

[WebSavvy]

OK, ok ... what IF ... the window repair guy was actually casing the store and waited until the store owner went home that night and then he threw a brick through the window just so it'd break?

Then, he arrived at the storefront 20-30 mins before the store was to open the next morning, just so he could "suggest" his services to the store owner?

Then, just to be "fair" ... he gave the store owner some business cards to other "glass repair shops" (that he secretly also owns)

Now we're all on the SAME page. :D

I'm wearing my gloves, headache's gone and I have my contacts in ... so bring it on htigar-MO'som-thin ;) :lol:

heh heh

[TiMoGo]

Thank you for the laugh... but I really don't think that we would argue there unless you are on the side of the brick thrower...

Sav-CC---Sumptin :thebomb:

[Comeran]

I agree that we can't compare b2b mortar to online... that being said I do see both sides, as I think everyone else here does too.

I guess like Connie said it all comes down to THAT website owner. If you come to a site that is not working properly and you want to make them a customer the only methods you have are spammy... cold call, snail mail, e-mail, or walk in. Any way you look at it the owner did not ask for the information and as Savvy said they probably don't even think it is broken.

It could go on for a while, but in my case, and the case of many of my clients we throw away messages from people offering their services.

I wish that spam wasn't so bad that we might even read it, but truth be told when you delete over 300 spams a day you don't really care what time he put into it or what it says. I don't get past line 1.

Comeran-

[Dave Hawley]

What if my Grandma had ball, she'd be my Grandpa ;)

I'm sure we all hate the saleperson knocking at our door, or giving us cold calls on the phone. Univited Emails from non-customers is spam in my book and always will be. While there are probably no laws in most Countries over door knocks and cold calls, there are laws against spam. Why would anyone use a business who has broken a law so blatently, or in sheer ignorance?

The premise of what if the info is useful is flawed IMO. Out of the 1000's or millions sent out of course some are going to make contact and use them, that's what spam keeps on coming. But what about the other 99% ?

[Comeran]

But what about the other 99% ?
They get annoyed and pay for the wasted SPAM traffic.

You also asked why so many choose to break the law and spam instead of knocking or calling which is legal.... because it is easy and cheap... knocking and calling take time, energy, and money. I could rent a server, setup some $200 spamming software, and start spamming for weeks. Total cost would prob. be around $500. I couldn't even hire a person to do calling for a week with that :p

Comeran-

[Dave Hawley]

No no, I was just drawing a comparison. I know full well why they use email. Cheaper, larger reach, faceless etc etc.

[Comeran]

Don't leave out spineless and annoying.

Comeran-

[JohnC]

Originally posted by TiMoGo
It is kind of a bummer that we narrowed this down so quickly... I was in the mood for a good fight! LOL :cheers: LOL .. that would be fun .. I just wish I had the time ... hehe .. :)