Who "owns" a domain name?

[Forrest]

It isn't necessarily the person who bought it. Pottery Barn .org is a hilarious example, and Deb brought up a developer named Mike Rowe who registered MikeRowSoft.com, much to MS's dismay.

My name is Forrest C Croce, so my domain name is ForrestCroce.com ... makes sense. My site is a personal photo gallery. I'm not selling prints, or running ads, I'm just trying to gain exposure, move out of IT to doing photography full time.

Well, the competition is tough. I'm in Seattle; in Florida, I think, there's another photographer named Forrest C Croce. The guy's photos aren't as good as mine, but he's been published in a few magazines, and I think he teaches a university class. I get emails intended for him now and then, and forward them on; I also get people who mean to contact me, but think I used to teach.

First, do I really "own" the domain name ForrestCroce.com, simply because I've paid for it? I have a pretty legit claim to it, but so does my evil twin.

Second, in promoting myself and my photography, all of the search results "above the fold" for my/our name are about me. There's my site, a micro-stock house made an announcement that I've joined them, I have sub galleries on other sites. I'm not trying to knock this other guy out of the results, but I do want people to know about me. I think I have an unfair edge in competing, in that I'm tech savvy.

So, this being the best practices forum, does any general advice spring to mind?

[Quadrille]

You certainly own it, but that isn't always enough.

For example, if someone had a trademark / service mark, then they might be able to wrest it from your grip (unlikely in the case you describe).

If you had a trading name that bore no relation to you or your business, and by some coincidence, it was identical to a pre-existing company, then they might wrest it from you (unlikely in the case you describe).

If you owned a domain that 'happened' to match someone else's business and just used it to forward to your domain, then your claim would be weak (unlikely in the case you describe).

Finally, if you owned it but did not use it, then someone might establish a claim. (unlikely in the case you describe).

Basically, I'd suggest that when two people have the same name, then both have a 'theoretical' claim - but you got there first. Lucky old you ;)

However, to be sure, there are measures you should take.

If your business name and domain name do not fully match, consider changes.

Also, if you register the name as a trademark, you will have a strong defense against almost anyone.

Finally, USE the domain; an unused domain name is hard to defend.

[Connie]

Though I think in terms of owning my domain names, we are really just renting them on a long term lease. Don't pay the rent when it's due, and you will loose the name.

In the situation you discribe, I doubt you have anything to worry about. Normally it's first come first served. For instance some one buys woodwidgets.com. You can buy (rent) wood-widgets.com, or woodwidgets-f.com if there available. It might be that woodwidgets.org, or .net is available.

The exception might be when you purchase (rent) a name like google.f.com that you might get into trouble. Google has the money to take you to court and they would probably win.

[Forrest]

Originally posted by Quadrille
Finally, USE the domain; and unsued domain is hard to defend.

Oh, I use it, Google has about 145 pages indexed from the domain. Photo galleries and pages with a jpeg image and a description of the location, conditions, technique, or whatever makes the image stand out.

But that's good to know. A friend of mine, a guy named Brian Keever, bought his name as a domain as a .com, and there are at least two other people in the US with the same name. One is a student at a high school in the same county, and the other is a political activist. My friend hasn't actually used his domain / site in a non trivial way, so I just shot him an email and suggested he gets off his butt on that.

You'll see another question shortly about how I've used my domain too heavily, hosting software when the site should be about photography, and splitting that up.

But thanks for the info!

[Connie]

Originally posted by Quadrille
You certainly own it, but that isn't always enough.

As long as you pay the mortage ( yearly registration fee) you own the domain name. There is a yearly rental fee that never stops. IMHO you never actually own the name. You just rent it for a year at a time with exclusive rights.

Stop paying that fee and see what happens to that domain that you think you own.

[Forrest]

Originally posted by Connie
As long as you pay the mortage ( yearly registration fee) you own the domain name. There is a yearly rental fee that never stops. IMHO you never actually own the name. You just rent it for a year at a time with exclusive rights.

I think I registered it for five years. I could be wrong, but I think I picked a pretty long term registration. I'm not planning to change my given name any time soon, so...

[Dave Hawley]

I believe Connie is correct, you never own a domain, only lease it. That means anyone can challenge rights to a domain name.

[ihelpyou]

Yep; that's right. You lease your domain name. I picked up my current name of ihelpyou.com in 2002. From 1996 until 2002 I used two other names as someone had the ihelpyou domain for all those years. I was told that I could have challenged this person because I had "first use" of my name before he did. I decided to wait it out and out of the clear blue the guy failed to renew the name and I got it. I think he died.

But anyway; you lease your name for the amount of time you choose to do so and you can lose that name at anytime for a few different reasons. :)

[Blue]

IMHO, entities like Microsoft "own" their domain name, whilst us less financially powerful beings lease our domain names.

In the sense that:

If ICANN tried to allow Mike Rowsahft to sneak microsoft.com away from Billy-boy solid **** titanium plated diamond studded Gates of financial bliss I bet they'd go broke.

But if Joe corporate moneybags mega-company's legal firm slithered in and flim-flammed one of little 'ol our domain names, we wouldn't stand a wee tiny water droplet's chance in the Sahara.

"Ownership" and "leased" mean different things to different classes of society.

:D :notworthy :violin:

[Forrest]

Originally posted by Dave Hawley
I believe Connie is correct, you never own a domain, only lease it. That means anyone can challenge rights to a domain name.


Ahhh ... now I see the connection. Thanks. I thought we were splitting hairs about ownership versus leasing, but this makes sense.

[Dave Hawley]

Unfortunately I found this out the hard way a few years back. M$ challenged rights to a parked domain I used. For a small guy myself and my wife did a good job on holding them off and have some great ammunition to use against them.

Then things went pear shape. Get this! The lawyer representing M$ was also on the board at ICANN! No prize for guessing who's favor ICANN decided in. We screamed loud and long that this was a blatant conflict of interest. But, unless we were prepared to mortgage our house, business etc to fight it. We were just a mouse squeaking at a lion.

[Comeran]

All of this aside, the fact that you are using the domain name and have reason to use that name in particular you should be fairly safe.

Had you been pointing it, or not had a reason for that particular name then you may be in different territory but the fact that it is your name, that you are using it for your photography business, and that you currently have it registered you look to be in very good position.

Com-

[SEFL]

What Comeran said...in this particular case, you registered it first, and since the domain name represents your legal name, you should be fine, just fine!

The other guy should have gotten it first if he really wanted it.

[Dave Hawley]

Unless the "other" guy has unlimited $'s & friends in the right place :)

[SEFL]

There are two key differences between Forrest's situation and yours, Dave.

1) Forrest Croce is his real name.

2) He's using the domain...and it's in good faith. You were parking the domain...and that's neither good nor bad faith (we'll just go ahead and call that Agnostic Domain Faith, okay? That'd be greaaaaaaaat.)

[Dave Hawley]

I'm not comparing with anything, simply stating a potential reality that anyone could face.

[Comeran]

It is a reality that he could face but he also could win the lotto... that too is a reality we might all face.... (I can only hope that one day it is a reality that I do face) but the truth is that very very very very very few people have the money and position or friends in a position to screw a small guy out of a rightful domain. You were just that unlucky lotto guy that went up against Goliath on his first run. I have had MANY clients that were served cease and desist orders, and had companies call trying to stop them from using their domains based on TM and other various reasons, none were ever able to get the domains....

In all of those cases though the people had a reason for that domain name, and they were using it in good faith. I have never had one come up on a parked domain so I wouldn't know how that would have gone.

In summary, Forrest we think you are ok.

Com-

[SEFL]

Exactly, Com. Dave, your situation is a lightning in a bottle case...assuming your version of events is the correct one (there are three sides to every coin....I'm not accusing you of anything, I'm just saying that there are varying accounts of truth.)

I haven't run across the parked domain case either, but I did recently run across a case where a client of a client let a domain expire and someone scooped it and pointed it to an MFA site.

I had to get involved because the client tried to negotiate with the MFA guy, who basically tried to hold them for ransom even though the client had a legitimate claim to the domain (it was a four-letter .ca, whereby the four letters formed the company abbreviation), and the other guy didn't. This went on for about six months

I had to step in, and after a threat to report the MFA guy to Adsense and three days of trying to work with CIRA, the domain was returned to the client...and they're very well aware now of what happens when a domain expires.

[Comeran]

I keep all domains on auto renew, even if I don't want it the worst that can happen is that I will loose 10 bucks... I can't imagine having a domain expire and go through this.... 6 months of having this down while we fight or end up buying it back... the rankings are almost all gone, it is almost not worth taking back.

Com-

[Forrest]

Originally posted by SEFL
I haven't run across the parked domain case either, but I did recently run across a case where a client of a client let a domain expire and someone scooped it and pointed it to an MFA site.

I've had to deal with something similar, and also not very fun. I used to run the site for years under a different name than my own, until my host started charging me for orders I didn't make, and wouldn't be reasonable. I waited for the domain to expire, then for the block they put on it to expire, and, thankfully, got it before some MFA creep did.

But that's neither here nor there ... as long as I'm using my own legal name, the fact that another person in my country has the same legal name doesn't sound like a problem? I didn't snatch up the .net and .org and all of that for my/our name, and I'm not trying to bury the guy, just better understand the issue.

Although the photos I've seen of this guys are nothing I'd show off, he's been given more recognition than I have. I'm still young. I wonder if there's anything I should do to distinguish us for my viewers? Probably not, this seems like the 80/20 rule, but in a job interview once someone told me they saw that I used to teach, having confused the two of us.

[Blue]

Have you considered placing a "if you were looking for this Forrest Croce, click here" link to his site?

[Dave Hawley]

Adam & Com, lighten up, it's not worth debating :rolleyes: I know it's unlikely and thought my post below made that obvious;Unless the "other" guy has unlimited $'s & friends in the right place :)I like a good olé knock down debate better than most, but I will only do so on a subject of substance.

:cheers:

[SEFL]

[i]I like a good olé knock down debate better than most... [/B]

You? NO WAY! :D