Am I welcome here?

[Forrest]

Has anyone over here heard of a forum called Digital Pointless? It's a place where you can learn how to get banned from Google and other search engines. I'm a few points away from having a red reputation on that forum.

Someone just told me "You should go hang out at Doug Heil's forum, he loves your type." It was a clickable link to boot.

"My type" is either honest or sane people, I'm not sure which. I angered the guy by pointing out the silliness in the idea that Google shouldn't micro-manage "things" like which links are paid and which are earned [the basis of their algorithm], but he's in a position to micro-manage Google's priorities.

The thread is here - I'm hoping this is a non clickable, or at least nofollow link:

http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showthread.php?t=405857

Anyway, since this forum got an honorable mention, I thought people would get a kick out of hearing about this. And if you read the thread, I do think it's entertaining.

[g1smd]

LOL.


Do NOT get Doug started on Digital Pointless.


You have no idea what can o' worms you just opened there.


:hi: :hi: :hi: :hi:

[Forrest]

I'm kind of shocked that I'm getting a negative reputation over there for being honest and advising people not to spam. I'm even trying to make people understand that it's in their own best interest, long term, to compete honestly.

On the other hand, maybe it's all the drugs - I was in the emergency room a few days ago, bruised two ribs, and hit my huevos very hard in a bike crash - but I'm kind of proud to be an outcast in spam land.

They told me I would fit in better over here where the honest folks hang out.

[WebSavvy]

LMAO @ Forrest. :lol:

Oh boy, Dougie's going to have some FUN. :D

[g1smd]

Looks like Doug has taken the day off....

[WebSavvy]

Doug's Father is deathly ill, so it's possible he's with his Family right now. He's been caring for his Father since mid-year last year when he became so ill. That's why he's in Ohio now.

[Forrest]

Originally posted by WebSavvy
LMAO @ Forrest. :lol:

Hey! I have an ice pack in a very tender place that shouldn't normally be brought up in mixed company. It's not funny! The good news I never wanted kids anyway.

Originally posted by WebSavvy
Oh boy, Dougie's going to have some FUN. :D

Okay, someone's going to have to fill me in on this relationship between Doug and Digital Pointless that everyone keeps hinting at.

This thread is hilarious: http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showthread.php?t=406778

[g1smd]

Start here: http://www.google.com/search?num=100&q=site:ihelpyou.com+digitalpoint

[WebSavvy]

There's a long history, though I'm not sure why. You can do a search in here and read some of the old threads.

I have never really spent any deal of time at DigitalPoint forums so I have no idea what methods they do or don't condone.

My personal opinion on things is, a forum exists to promote free speech and exchange ideas. Every person is welcome to express his/her opinion and others are welcome to read it or not.

No one has to agree or disagree with anything anyone else says. If a particular subject, post, or person, annoys you -- just ignore it. Don't read it.

There are only two forums I spend any time in, this one and WMT. I just don't have any more time for any others because I have a business to run, a child to take care of, and once in a while -- I might get lucky and have a few hours free time in which I can enjoy something I like to do like working out, running, fishing, or whatever.

When a person is in search of greater knowledge in an effort to educate themselves with regard to a specific topic -- they read lots of books by many authors. I view forums the same way. If one only chooses to read one book, by one author, the knowledge will be limited and therefore education of said subject, will be impeded.

[Forrest]

Originally posted by WebSavvy
I have never really spent any deal of time at DigitalPoint forums so I have no idea what methods they do or don't condone.

Again, being medicated for excruciating pain and having been x-rayed and ultrasounded, and luckily I'm not seriously injured, but I think it's the drugs, and boredom, that are my excuse for vising DP.

As to what methods they condone for SEO, you know me well enough. It says a lot that all of the reputation I've received lately there, the whole screen full, is negative.

For people other than Deb, Adam, and Chris, who don't know me, my basic approach is that search engines reward good sites, and that honesty is the only sustainable policy. It helps to know as much as you can about Google's algos, so that when you can't decide how to present something you have a tie breaker, but the best seo is to write outstanding pages for the users.

Sadly, I can't design well, so my site is ugly, but even with that handicap I compete on merit.

And the folks at DP told me I'd be more welcome here.

[WebSavvy]

LOL. Yep, I know about the pain meds. heh heh

I've had a string of accident infliction's too. LOL.

A few years ago I broke both hands in a weight lifting accident after my spotter walked away to get some water real quick. I had a muscle spasm in my arm and lost my grip on a free weight bar doing bench press. Lucky I didn't kill myself, and rolled to the side as the bar went crashing down over the back of my head.

I went though eye surgery on both eyes at the same time about 5 months ago (because I'm legally blind) to improve my eye sight. It helped somewhat, and I can see better than before even if it's only a few feet more.

So, I constantly get injuries out of just plain not being able to see. Right now, I have a ruptured tendon in my left arm and a torn rotator cuff.

Been this way since April and healing is slow and painful. Meds help but I don't like to take them. So, I understand your dilemma. :)

Forrest, your site isn't really "ugly" ... you just haven't learned enough about design yet, but that comes with time. Skills improve with time, knowledge, and experience.

I'm a better programmer and designer now than I was 8 years ago when I first started. You should take a look at the wayback machine and see some of websavvy's first designs. They weren't too good, but I did get better at it over the years.

Right now I'm getting ready to put up another new design, even though the current one is less than a year old. I just like change once in a while.

:)

[Forrest]

Originally posted by WebSavvy
A few years ago I broke both hands in a weight lifting accident after my spotter walked away to get some water real quick. I had a muscle spasm in my arm and lost my grip on a free weight bar doing bench press. Lucky I didn't kill myself, and rolled to the side as the bar went crashing down over the back of my head. [ ... ] Right now, I have a ruptured tendon in my left arm and a torn rotator cuff.

I'm part of the torn rotator cuff club. I'm sure the rest of the people reading this thread are jealous. It's what happens at about 20 mph when you hit a pothole and loose your balance - I had some groceries that pulled me down to one side. Rolled over, so my shoulder took the brunt of the fall. Harborview classifies "soft tissue damage" as a minor injury, but that was a lot more serious than several of the broken bones I've had.

When I bench press with free weights, I like to take the pins out. I've lost my strength after one rep too many, and one side gives out first, the weights fall off, then the other side falls like a see-saw, and that's still bad, but not going to injure you.

Anyway, we're WAY off topic at this point, but...

[WebSavvy]

LOL.

Threads do go off-topic simply because they are like a conversation.

Ever been in a group of people in a social situation and one thing is being discussed that leads to another, and pretty soon the topic at hand is no longer the same one that began the conversation in the first place?

:D

You'd love it at my church. :lol:
For some reason, no matter what's being discussed the "women" always end up talking about shoes, nail polish, and fabrics.

I'm from Mars in their eyes because none of those things interest me.

If you have more than three pairs of high heels (black, white, brown), more than three pairs of sandals (black, white, brown), more than three pair of all-purpose flats (black, white, brown) and more than two pairs of sneakers (all purpose, and tennis), then you have too many shoes.

Nail polish gets in the way of being able to do dishes, work in the garden, paint, change motor oil, and anything else life asks of you -- I don't wear it.

Fabric of any color is fine as long as it doesn't clash with the clowns. :D

So, I end up having some really interesting discussions about politics, car care, fishing (which I live for!), and other topics -- with the men, while the women at church discuss shoes, makeup, and fabrics -- and what an oddball that Deb is because she's not interested in any of these things! :lol:

[ihelpyou]

Reading threads over there make me sick most of the time. I don't want to read those threads today, but maybe tomorrow, maybe not. I don't have to read them to know exactly what they are saying though.

That place is a breeding ground for the next link monger, and the next wave of new "tricks" for Google to pounce on. It's a shame new people find that place and get suckered in to what they discuss. Paid links is the tip of things over there.

Yep Forrest; you wouldn't be welcome there at all. They run out people who are honest and abide by se guidelines faster than I run out search engine spammers over here. :) Well, I don't run them out, but they quickly see their thought processes aren't welcome in here.

[Dave Hawley]

Ooohhh that hit em right where it hurts, paid links! DigitalSpam forums are a breeding ground for those with low morals and ethics.

Not to be welcome there is something to be proud of. I'm loud and proud to say that I'm not welcome there either :)

The ones I feel for are the newbies. They read only one-side of the story are never told of the risks or that DigitalSpam has a vested interest in promoting spam. It's almost like a cult where members are brainwashed. I say "almost" as most members there don't have brains and the ones that do, don't use them.

[Dave Hawley]

My personal opinion on things is, a forum exists to promote free speech and exchange ideas. Every person is welcome to express his/her opinion and others are welcome to read it or not.Sorry Deb, no such thing as "free speech" IMO, unless we have anarchy.

That is a good thing though, else we would have even worse forums in the open with even lower ethics and morals.

[Forrest]

Originally posted by Dave Hawley
Ooohhh that hit em right where it hurts, paid links! DigitalSpam forums are a breeding ground for those with low morals and ethics.

Unfortunately, this is the truth. The place is a little bit hostile to the idea of morality. I've jaywalked once or twice, I'm not trying to judge anyone ... but it's funny to be judged for answering a question with good advice.

[SEFL]

Forrest, my brother! Welcome to the DP Black Sheep List! (Population approx. 1,500).

I was invited there about 2 years ago by, if I remember correctly, one of the mods from another board because I was one of the few voices of reason and common sense on another board. I left after about 2-3 months because there were too many people like your boy mvandemar who feel the need to "educate others" and get all indignant every time Google does something that they don't like. They used to hate the fact that I was one of the first people to openly discuss the direct connection between good code and SEO, and how a well-built site can overcome the need to participate in the schemes the DP crowd pulls off. I left though...as amusing as it is to "be educated" by people suffering from cranial-rectal syndrome, it gets old after a while.

Remember Vasity? (For those who don't know Vasity, he was a guy on Webmaster-Talk.com who got banned for promoting idiotic SEO tricks and waving his unit around while bragging about how great he was...all the while proving the first guy who pointed out that he was a spammer dead right at every opportunity.) I think that was his old board and where he learned his tricks.

[ihelpyou]

Didn't anyone follow the links in the thread I started?

http://www.ihelpyou.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=264069

That "useless" tool being promoted by Sphinn.com is one of many useless tools built by that SAME PERSON at DP... that Michael whatshisname fellow.

http://sphinn.com/story/878

Follow the links please. NO ONE in that place said one word about it either, eventhough he builds tools that go against ALL guidelines, and he's also a big spammer as well.

Why do you think I was upset and had to start that thread? Sphinn is simply another place where spammers can promote each other freely.

That Mike guy even commented in the same sphinn thread.

Maybe everyone is scared to talk against Sullivan's newest "blog"? Not me.

[SEFL]

I followed it, but I never made the connection between that Vandemar guy and the tool itself (since it was on Donna's blog)...that, and the guy already exhibits the standard spammer tendencies. Why would we give any additional attention to one particular idiot when he's only adding to the trend created by the general idiot population?

All dumbasses are created equally, and all that.

[ihelpyou]

But the thread is about sphinn. It's about this silly industry and the ass-kissing.

[Forrest]

A little above my head. But the second link you posted ... why the hell would anyone need a PageRank checker? Even if PR had any value, is there something wrong with the one Google provides?

[Forrest]

Update:

IHY is read obsessively by at least one member of the Digital Pointless crew ... the guy who put the Pointless in Digital Pointless no less:

http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showthread.php?t=409370

In fairness I should say not everyone over there is shysty. But an angry link-seller who thinks Google shouldn't put any effort into paid links turns out to lurk here regularly.

I thought the members of this forum would find it interesting to know the "reach" this place gets. The number of posts versus the number of silent readers must be staggering.

[Dave Hawley]

I have a sneaking suspicion that the users online legend is frigged. There is a lot a free software on vBullentin.org that does this.

The whole place has a MASSIVE vested interest in keep the not-so-well-informed in the dark on link spam.

They know no morals or ethics and wouldn't think twice about screwing innocents.

[SEFL]

FORREST! Welcome to The Club, Brother!

The Club is an exclusive group of people who have managed to piss off some useless elitist retard so much that they end up forming delusional obsessions and commenting every time you try to say something even remotely logical.

I'm a little jealous, though. Your obsessive lamer is way more entertaining than any of my obsessive lamers. :( I'll trade you the guy who cross-posted the link to my contact page on various SEO forums + a lamer to be named later for him!

[Quadrille]

Originally posted by Forrest
IHY is read obsessively by at least one member of the Digital Pointless crew ... the guy who put the Pointless in Digital Pointless no lessWe get lurkers from many forums who hate everything we stand for - ands the proof is how quickly they can jump in when they think we're having a hard time. They seem to love to 'kick a man when he's down', though they usually fudge it up, and show how right we were in the process :D

They are notable by their absence, however, when we give them a hard time, which is a shame :)

We also get an amazing number of spammers who had recently been sh*tt*ng all over DP with impunity - they get a little stunned on arrival here!

[ihelpyou]

yeah, spammers lurk here daily.... a few of them anyway. Many are constantly looking over their shoulder as we are one of a very few forums who will out sites for search engine spam. MOST places don't care about our industry at all, and don't care about those in it who give it a bad name.

Places like DP allow spammers and link mongers and schemers to advertise their wares freely and openly. It's truly disgusting reading those threads with bogus and fake directory owners touting their paid links with PR 5, etc. It's very "puke" worthy stuff to say the least. It's hard to believe our industry allows this stuff to happen and never says one word to the owner of that place and others who allow the crap to go on and on and on. What exactly do they think they are accomplishing with such a place? I think they are accomplishing the total destruction of our industry, and our industry just allows it to happen.

Forrest; very good posts over there. You are much more diplomatic than I could ever be. Stick around bud. :)

[SEFL]

Aw c'mon, Doug. You're very diplomatic. Sometimes I have no idea how you really feel about stuff. :D

[Forrest]

Originally posted by SEFL
I'm a little jealous, though. Your obsessive lamer is way more entertaining than any of my obsessive lamers. :( I'll trade you the guy who cross-posted the link to my contact page on various SEO forums + a lamer to be named later for him!

Only if you throw in your thuggin' and mean muggin' Seaseme Slum web site. For anyone who doesn't know what I'm talking about, visit Adam's blog and bring some popcorn.

Originally posted by ihelpyou
Forrest; very good posts over there. You are much more diplomatic than I could ever be. Stick around bud. :)

The funny thing is I didn't think I was diplomatic at all. Felt a little like an attack dog, although the guy deserved it. And while the guy told me I "have much to learn" if I wasn't so stubborn, I hate to think of people who have more to learn than I do being convinced the only way they can find happiness is to buy hundreds of links.

I've never bought a link in my life. The closest I've come to reciprocal linking is that I put Adam in my blog roll, because the guy is consistently hilarious, and he's done a "cool site of the week on me." There's some quid-pro-quo there, but the implicit deal is as long as Adam continues to be funny...

So, until they actually tell me don't come back, the sick and twisted part of me is enjoying how frustrating I must be to link mongers.

[Dave Hawley]

Forrest, all I can say in regards to DP is, RUN FORREST, RUN!

[SEFL]

Dammit, I gotta keep being entertaining! THE PRESSURE! THE PRESSURE! I'LL NEVER TAKE THE PRESSURE!

[Forrest]

Originally posted by SEFL
Dammit, I gotta keep being entertaining! THE PRESSURE! THE PRESSURE! I'LL NEVER TAKE THE PRESSURE!

Yeah, you're the one who started it and built the expectations, so you can't complain now...

[SEFL]

Yeah, I guess I can't...but spammers won't play with me anymore. :(

[Forrest]

Originally posted by SEFL
Yeah, I guess I can't...but spammers won't play with me anymore. :(

I just found you a new one. And he's a riot. You can have this guy for free, I don't even want your Sesame Slum site.

http:// forums.digitalpoint.com/showthread.php?p=3910955&posted=1#post3910955

This guy said Google is the Adolph Hitler of fighting spam. Well, he doesn't call it spam, "the webmaster's right to monetize their site" seems to be the preferred term.

Otherwise, I'm not putting any words in the guy's mouth. I'm not putting two of them in particular in his mouth. If I had a general purpose blog with a wide audience that made fun of spammers, I would have a field day at DP.

People like to imagine Seattle has a "smoking ban." You can't smoke indoors, on someone else's property. But you can smoke outdoors in your home or a friend's. Smoking wasn't banned, only smoking indoors in places that employ people. Google hasn't said no one else on the internet can advertise; they're saying if you sell links they won't carry page rank.

Now that's the end of the world if you're going around selling something with no value ... it might hurt your style. But is saying "you shouldn't try to game the system" really worth invoking the Nazis over?

[Dave Hawley]

It never ceases to amaze me, how spammer say they can do what they like as it's their site (quite rightly), but yet believe Google doesn't reserve the same right! Go figure :confused:

[ihelpyou]

Wow. Hard to believe the way that place spins things. I want to point out a long time member over there who has simply got caught up in the DP mentality, and really not her fault:

http://nakedpr.com/2007/07/17/why-the-seo-gurus-and-social-media-monkeys-can-suck-rocks/

She has a blog that I spent some time reading. I have to say I agree with her about a bunch of things she says about SEO "gurus", etc. She makes very good points and she knows her profession real well which seems to be PR, as in Public Relations.

She has many, many posts at DP. This is her latest one in the thread posted above. Keep in mind it's in the context of Google cracking down on "paid links" because as we know very well, a paid link is NOT A VOTE for a site.
This whole thing has really gotten ridiculous. Here's reality:

1. Google created a new advertising market by factoring links into Pagerank.

2. Google convinced webmasters the world over that Pagerank actually means something. Advertiser demand was born.

3. Publishers respond naturally to advertiser demand. People are making a lot of money with this new market; Google not included.

4. Advertisers are also getting a lot of value with this market, which takes away at least some interest in other advertising models (Adwords anyone?).

It's easy for Google to try to pretend that they're just being altruistic in wanting cleaner search results. But if that were the case, they'd really have to scrap pagerank almost completely or at least stop factoring it into search results and let it just remain the little marketing tool that it's always been for them.

Does Google have the right to work inclusion in their search engine any way they please? Sure they do. Does Google have the right to decide to devalue paid links? Sure they do.

But if Google wants to operate under a certain kind of business model, it's their responsibility to make it work; not the webmasters'. We have no responsibility to add no follow to our paid links. We have no responsibility to report paid links. Frankly, the only people who are going to have the time to go around doing all of that anyway are the ones with too much time on their hands because they're not out there earning money (that and the competitor saboteurs as someone else mentioned earlier). I'm all for cleaner search results. But why should any of us spend time that would otherwise earn us money cleaning up the mess of Google, because they didn't think things through before jumping into their current model?

It's up to Google how they choose to run their search engine. And it's up to each webmaster how they choose to run (and monetize) their website. I say, if we're going to do all of these favors for Google, what are they going to do for us? When Google starts making algorithm changes in your favor as per your personal request, you should certainly return the favor and change your own business model to suit their needs in return. Until then, it's wishful thinking.

You have to choose what kind of business you run with your websites. It's up to you whether you choose to be "choosey" in the links you'll link to, or whether you'll post a link from any Joe Schmo willing to pay you. My personal stance on this one is simple: only post links that would be of some actual value to your readers, and then it's nobody's damn business how you're monetizing them. Your readers are the ones you need to be transparent with, and if you are, you'll keep the trust and help ensure that you'll always have other monetization models to fall back on if you need to. If you plan to run even remotely successful sites, you'd better have better things to be doing with your time than playing "clean up" for Google.
Let's discuss the lunacy of what she is saying in her post. It's VERY clear she has the digitalpointless mentality and has simply learned at the VERY wrong place. It's truly a shame as she seems to be a bright gal, but just got mixed up with the wrong people.
Google created a new advertising market by factoring links into Pagerank.
No Google did not. Spammers created the market based on the latest google algo as spammers do all the time.
2. Google convinced webmasters the world over that Pagerank actually means something. Advertiser demand was born.
Wrong again. Spammers say that PR you see in the toolbar means something. Spammers created the advertising market of selling FALSE toolbar pagerank.
It's easy for Google to try to pretend that they're just being altruistic in wanting cleaner search results. But if that were the case, they'd really have to scrap pagerank almost completely or at least stop factoring it into search results and let it just remain the little marketing tool that it's always been for them.
Wrong again. The toolbar PR is what spammers base their link selling from. That is NOT the correct PR that Google uses in it's algo.
Does Google have the right to work inclusion in their search engine any way they please? Sure they do. Does Google have the right to decide to devalue paid links? Sure they do.

But if Google wants to operate under a certain kind of business model, it's their responsibility to make it work; not the webmasters'. We have no responsibility to add no follow to our paid links. We have no responsibility to report paid links.
Can we see a pattern here? :green: She states that Google has the right to do whatever they wish with their sites, but then states that Google is somehow forcing websites to put in nofollow tags, etc. My goodness.

Please continue commenting about her posts and other posts in that thread. It's very clear how very much different the mindsets are with that place and this place. Why is there such a difference? My thinking is that some people just have to implement the latest and greatest tricks to game Google and some people don't as they simply try to build good websites for their visitors and all else seems to fall in place.

It's quite a shame that member has got mixed up with the wrong side of our industry.

[SEFL]

Forrest: can I come over to your house and play with your lamer? I'm almost thinking of rejoining that forum just to have a little fun with Captain Clueless.

[Blue]

But if Google wants to operate under a certain kind of business model, it's their responsibility to make it work; not the webmasters'. I can only say that I hope the DP masses follow her advice.

Bottom line:

Google is where it is today because people find it to be the most useful and accurate engine out there.

So, go ahead DP masses, listen to the Google detractors and get your sites banned or get those page 2,378,965 SERPS listening to the DP detractors will get you.

The rest of us will continue on our merry 'ol whitehat way!

[Dave Hawley]

4. Advertisers are also getting a lot of value with this market, which takes away at least some interest in other advertising models (Adwords anyone?).How anyone can jump to that conclusion as fact is beyond me.

It seems common sense to me that there are only ever 10 spots on page 1, 2, 3... and anyone NOT getting the $'s they want will use AdWords if they wish.

[ihelpyou]

http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showthread.php?p=3914851

:green:

Goodness. Read those posts. The question is:

" Best way to get links"

One post says this:

"If not, you can always try to get links by sending out massive amt of email request (thats how i do it anyway)."

And that's from a member in that place with MANY posts already. No one says one word to that member. No one says anything to any of those members, spammers or not.

I'm actually thinking the owner of that place only exists to make sure of the destruction of the industry. I'm thinking that is why the place exists,,,... and the only reason it exists.

I'm wondering what you all think about "high profile" places actually praising digitalpoint? We've all seen it. It's astounding what goes on in this industry. It's very sad.

[SEFL]

I think it resembles an old Monty Python sketch:

"And now...the 100-yard dash for people with no sense of direction!"

[Forrest]

Originally posted by ihelpyou
I'm actually thinking the owner of that place only exists to make sure of the destruction of the industry. I'm thinking that is why the place exists,,,... and the only reason it exists.

Wow. I didn't see that one; I try not to spend too much time at DP. I should go say something ... and then get ***** slapped. On more reputable forums I try to point out how that might work on 1 % of the people who get the email, and make the other 99 % hate you ... but this guy isn't all wet behind the ears.

I'm actually a little more cynical in my conspiracy theories. Thanks to paid posting and paid linking, DP is maybe the most popular / trafficked webmaster forum? If 80 % of the members there drink the kool aid, that means a lot less competition coming from new web sites.

It's easy for Google to try to pretend that they're just being altruistic in wanting cleaner search results. But if that were the case, they'd really have to scrap pagerank almost completely or at least stop factoring it into search results and let it just remain the little marketing tool that it's always been for them.

First, Google has been devaluing page rank as far as I can tell, and not because Digital Pointless asked them to. PR seems to be a tie breaker.

Second, there's nothing altruistic about Google wanting to take spam out of their index. They're not pretending there's any reason except their bottom line here ... better quality service means more users means more ad revenue.

[Forrest]

Originally posted by Dave Hawley
How anyone can jump to that conclusion as fact is beyond me.

Well ... all dogs bark, and this tree has bark, so obviously this pine is a dog. Same type of logic.