LS goes Pay-per-Click

[Cavetoad]

This just in from LookSmart to my inbox today...

Dear Valued Customer:

We have exciting news to share. LookSmart is pleased to announce the upcoming launch of Small Business Listings. Based on feedback from customers like you, we’ve merged and enhanced the benefits of our "Submit" and "Site Promote" products into one product called Small Business Listings. When it launches, Small Business Listings will take the place of the current products, and your existing listing will be automatically upgraded.

We're giving you a preview of these great changes now because you're a valued customer. There is nothing you have to do at this time -- just wait a little longer to hear all the details. We’ll email you with a lot more information when Small Business Listings launches in a couple of weeks.

Small Business Listings will give you the opportunity to get:
Even more traffic from LookSmart's entire network of partners.
Better-targeted traffic by selecting relevant keywords.
On-line click reporting for your listings.
Performance-based pricing – a flat price per click-through to your site.
Exact control over your monthly traffic level.

Because we want to ensure that your site's listing continues to be a valuable marketing investment:
Your listing will be automatically upgraded to a Small Business Listing.
You'll get all the benefits of our new product features.
LookSmart will credit your account with a generous number of FREE clicks to ensure that you continue to receive valuable traffic.
If you have an active Site Promote listing, your monthly charges will automatically be applied to your Small Business Listing traffic, in addition to the free clicks we provide.

Remember, LookSmart will launch the Small Business Listings product within the next couple of weeks. Keep an eye out for another email from us with the details about your new Small Business Listing and about your free traffic. Thanks for your patience. We look forward to sharing more about Small Business Listings soon.

Sincerely,
The LookListings Small Business Team


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No choice, pay or go away. Can't wait for that 'free traffic' they're going to give me. I wonder how this will afffect listings from Zeal?
And will we be able to bow out of the listings rather than change over? And what happens when the account runs dry?
I paid for a bunch of sites before Zeal came out so if I can get them dropped from LS I could probably get them in Zeal which hopefully would still be a viable entry to the LS->MSN site.

thoughts?

-Tom

[MsSearch]

I don't think anything is going to happen to Zeal....just my opinion , maybe Surfcat has the inside scoop ;) )

As for Looksmart, they will not go fully Pay-per-Click....I think it's just another option they are offering within the scope of their 'Small Business Listings'...it doesn't sound to me that very much will change. Just more options and more ways to pay for extra website exposure...

I thought they were getting ready to roll out their annual fee for LS US??

[Cavetoad]

I wish it were just another option but if you read it it sure doesn't sound like there's going to be any other way.
"we’ve merged and enhanced the benefits of our "Submit" and "Site Promote" products into one product called Small Business Listings. When it launches, Small Business Listings will take the place of the current products, and your existing listing will be automatically upgraded. "

No submit options there. Just small business listings. I suppose that big business listings are already paying and that non-business listings are going in thru zeal.

Their annual fee appears like it will be per-click!

[MsSearch]

What about those clients that paid the one time submission fee? They cannot grandfather them in and start charging them on a per click basis....after they paid the one-time fee of $299....Looksmart will lose A LOT of customers doing this.

If I was gonna go the pay-per-click route, then why not just go with Overture and be assured a top spot across most search engines? This is why I do not think Looksmart will be completely pay-per-click...I think they will have other otpions available to those of us who do not want the pay-per-click...

They will roll out more details later....so I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[OptWizard]

Just confirmed this is the way this model will be working...it is a CPC...With a twist....you pay for clicks but no bidding...you are ranked through the LS algo...meaning...you are charged for clicks and you basically do not know where you are ranked..SO the model is a CPC inclusion...make sense...If you paid the 299 you are grandfathered over and get 299 of FREE clicks a month and can get more...

As far as what the CPC is They do not know yet....

So to summarize YES LS IS CPC but no bidding...CPC then LS throws in there algo...NO MORE 299 FEE

[MsSearch]

I hope its cheaper than the original Site promote when they shut my sites down midmonth for receiving the maximum number of clicks in a week and a half....

Looks like i'll be taking my free clicks and cancelling if this is the case....

[Cavetoad]

So if you're in with the paid you think we'll get a certain amount of clicks per month, and then when those are up we are blocked until the next months pile of clicks is floated our way?
ugh.

[OptWizard]

THats how it going to work spoke to a rep..299 free clicks a month but can by more...

[ihelpyou]

They have a lot of explaining to do yet. How does a site get in then so that MSN picks them up if they are a business site?

[Kal]

What a sad little email to wake up to. Yet another pay for performance program to get our heads around. Yet another round of phone calls to clients to try and explain it. Is it any wonder they're sceptical? It is difficult enough to convince potential clients of the value of SEO without all the 3rd party fees and methodology changes. I'm so sick of this never ending search engine tango. Some days I wonder why the hell I bother...

[KevinC.]

I have just been accepted into Looksmart and am working out my description adjustment before the 30 day limit is over.

I'm not really interest in ppc. From this forum, I decided not to bother with Overture.

Maybe I should ask for my $149.00 back?

Danny Sullivan's newsletter makes it sound like a complete shift.

What do you think?

Kevin C.

[ihelpyou]

This whole thing rides on what is going to happen with MSN?

Nothing else matters. We do not know how MSN plays into this big change.

I could care less what LS does with the listings they already have but I DO care what happens to those same listings if a site does not wish to continue to pay LS on a pay per click basis. That is what concerns me. Does LS simply charge out your credit card? What happens if you do not want to continue after your 'free clicks' are used up?

If you do not continue to pay LS, what happens to your listing that you paid for and thought that it was a one-time fee?

What about new sites that are not in the directory yet? Do you pay $30 every month to keep listed? If so, how do they think they will get new sites in now??

Soooooooo many questions have to be answered with this.

What does MSN do now with the LS listings of which some a PPC, some are CPC, some will not renew or upgrade to CPC, and some are in the database as 'non-commercial'?

Sheesh, what a mess. MSN now shows Overture first, and LS next, so are they now going to show Overture PPC, Looksmart PPC, and then what??? Talk about relevance? They will NOT be any relevance anymore it seems to me. If a site has the bucks, they will be on the first results page of MSN. If no bucks, they will not be shown.

What a sorry deal and very bad for the search market as a whole.

[sanity]

Kal you've hit the nail on the head. It makes it prretty damn hard for us to have to go back and explain to our customers. "Oh sorry you will no longer be getting what you've paid for". Unfortunately I think it often makes us look bad or incompetent.

How does this fit in with the fact they just went to annual fees in the AU directory. I really wonder what planet these people are from :rolleyes:

[ihelpyou]

Yes. Very bad.

What happens to our client's sites if we used OUR credit card to list them in LS and then refuse to keep paying them on a CPC thing? If they think they have a 'free' reign to charge out my credit card for every client I got added using it, they sure do have another thing coming.

Sooooo many questions.

[sanity]

Sooooo many questions.

And no damn answers :confused:

[nuzelonde]

Doug is right. MS holds the key.

Unfortunately, MS strategy is geared towards productising content. In this respect, Looksmart and Overture sit comfortably within their business model.

Google sees it this way: Userbase + relevancy = $$$
MS sees it this way: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ (what's a user?)

[ihelpyou]

Google sees it this way: Userbase + relevancy = $$$
MS sees it this way: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ (what's a user?)
Unfortunately, that is SOOOO true.

Again, the end user will be the big loser in the deal. Big business will be the big winners. Quite a sorry scene for the net in general.

[OptWizard]

>>How does a site get in then so that MSN picks them up if they are a business site<<

Same way as they do now...THE PPC Model is really ppc inclusion MODEL..You are not paying for a posiiton you are paying for an inclusion...You do not know where you are going to place...You are just charged for clicks and where you wind up depends on how you optimize your site..This is all coming form a LS rep I spoke to today....

SO basically MSN is still pulling form the LS database...the question is this are you going to be charged for the MSN clicks as well?...


SO there is no bidding in this model just getting charged for clicks

[KevinC.]

From Doug:

"Again, the end user will be the big loser in the deal."

That's true, but why would anyone be searching on MSN in the first place? Ya know? I can't feel sorry for a grown adult getting a dry Mcdonald's hamburger because they don't know they could get a great juicy one at a real restaurant.

Kevin

[Jastor]

This news certainly doesn't sit well with me! :mad:

When I read the e-mail from LookSmart this morning my mouth just dropped open. I couldn't believe it.

I just paid the $150.00 last week and my site is naturally not included in LookSmart yet.

Now all of a sudden I wind up paying on per click basis when I never wanted to be involved in PPC or CPC in the first place.

SOOOMMMMME UPGRADE! :mad: MORE LIKE AN UPGRADE FOR THEM! :mad:

There is NO WAY I am going to allow them to automatically charge my credit card.

Does anyone have any further information on this automatic billing thing?? Is there a way to prevent it through the account on their site or do you have to call them??

As you all know, I'm still very new to SEO and I still have a lot to learn, however I had been doing quite a bit of reading before even finding this forum. At the time I didn't quite understand how everything fit together, but it was obvious to me that Overture was becoming the big boy on the block. Further, I noticed other search engines that were adopting the a PPC type methodology. I had hoped against hope that the entire Internet wouldn't follow suit, but it looks like that that fear is slowly becoming a reality.

Sure, there are a ton of smaller search engines out there, but with the way the larger indexes and directories feed results to one another the majority of the content served up by the major search engines could quickly become nothing but PPC and CPC sites.

This whole situation is very disturbing. I can see Kal's point. I'm starting to wonder whether it's even worth my time to keep up with the garbage.

Ok .... I'm done typing. :D

[Kal]

Originally posted by sanity
It makes it prretty damn hard for us to have to go back and explain to our customers. "Oh sorry you will no longer be getting what you've paid for". Unfortunately I think it often makes us look bad or incompetent.
Yes sanity and I'll take that one step further and say that if they now change their "one time" listing fee to a "limited" listing, they could be up for some type of legal action. It's all very well to grandfather previous customers like Overture did when they introduced the 5c bid limit and like Yahoo did when they introduced their annual fee, but for LS to change the product we have already bought from them and demand more money for what is essentially the same exposure is outrageous, IMO.

I'm pretty sure they cannot do that legally in Australia (which is probably why LS AU has simply retained the status quo with increased their fees). But I'm doubtful they can get away with this in the U.S. either. Mark my words, the crapola is going to hit the fan with this move. :mad:

Hey Jill - when we know a little bit more from LS about the new service, I'd love to know what your husband thinks about the legal ramifications of this move for past customers!

[Advisor]

Read their terms of service: http://listings.looksmart.com/top_pop.jhtml?page=submit/SubmitFaq#?page=submit/SubmitFaq
(you'll have to click the link on that FAQ page for terms of service, I couldn't get the actual url since it's a popup).

LookSmart reserves the right in its sole discretion to determine the sites selected for inclusion in the Directory and to remove a site at any time. and...Applicant acknowledges and agrees that nothing in this Agreement or the Service obligates LookSmart to list, link or otherwise accept Applicant's site in the Directory or anywhere on www.looksmart.com or to provide priority placement for Applicant's site; and if Applicant's site is accepted for inclusion in the Directory it will be placed in the manner determined by
LookSmart. Sure doesn't sound like anyone could fight anything legally. They don't have to list you at all, and they can remove you if they feel like it. So making you pay for clicks is a minor detail!

Apparently, they're more ridiculous than ever...and would like to win the most arrogant search directory title from Yahoo.

Jill

[eskipii]

so what happens if everyone who payed to looksmart calls up their credit card company and starts bitching? Say "this is not what I pay for and I'm not happy", credit card companies have been very helpful to me in the past in this department. The most you can be liable for is $50 bucks. Tomorrow I'm giving my cc-merchant rep a call...

if this happens in a mass scale, looksmart is screwed =)

[Kal]

Thanks for that pointer to LS terms of service Jill - looks like we're all screwed! Still, bad service generates bad publicity and no disclaimer can hold that back.

[sanity]

So in the meantime what do we tell prospective new clients? I am in the middle of a number of proposals as we speak :confused: I guess I could leave L$ out till we know more but I do think it's an important place to list. That may change though :rolleyes:

Kal, did you receive the email for sites you've submitted to the AU L$ or just L$.com?

[Kal]

Just L$.com. I rarely use the LS AU express service.

[ihelpyou]

If this works as Opt says it works, things will not be so bad as LS simply went to a recurring fee. $30 per month or $360 per year. This and if they keep their algo thing, etc.

The question becomes, do the MSN clicks count as well? If so, many of us will use up the 200 clicks after one or two days and then will have zero the rest of the month. Not good.

As far as those of us in already, the free clicks would be used up after a few days and then NOthing. Not good again.

It's hard to see how any of this would be a good thing no matter how they spin it.

I agree with the question Alan asked:
"who does Looksmart address?".... the end user? The big advertiser? The big .com's? Simply their own pockets?

It would seem their end user is their absolute lowest priority. No regard to them at all. I should say their end user AND their current clients.

[Great-1]

I know that nobody knows anything yet, but:

1. Are these monkeys gonna be charging my credit card monthly?
2. Where's the "Remove Me Button" on LS.com?
3. Where's the end of the queue of people wanting to help LS pull their head out of their backside?

[ihelpyou]

Hey Looksmart,.. ya like all this great publicity you are getting? You deserve it me thinks.

I recall you received the same thing when you bedded up with scumware companies? Remember that? We have not heard anything more about that lately so now that begs the question:

Do the scumware companies have anything to do with your current PPC thing? Are they the ones actually handling everything? Fess up!

Also, if MSN plays into this equally by showing NOTHING but PPC listings on the first page or results or even more pages, MSN is also even lower on the scum pole. I sure do hope MSN will still show some listings that got their on their own legs and not from their deep pockets.

Maybe we will be calling MSN/Dogpile instead of MSN? One would never be able to see any differences between the two.

[ihelpyou]

Wow, can you imagine the guts and stupidity involved with the Looksmart PR department sitting around a table discussing how they will unfold this new scheme?

Where do they get these people? How the hell do you come up with this kind of PR? Why the hell would anyone wish to reveal this type of thing ahead of time, AND then NOT give any details about it? What the hell were they thinking? What kind of person could possibly sit there and think... "this is the best way to go about this."

HUH?

At the SES conference in Boston a question in one of the sessions was made directly to a Looksmart rep in front of a couple hundred people. The question was something like:

"Will you do as Yahoo did and suddenly change overnight so that we cannot give our clients any advanced notice?"

The LS rep said we all would get a notice.

WOW, not only have they revealed a complete change of business model, but they have deceived all of us who thought we were paying a one-time fee to be in a "directory" and were NOT buying into a PPC scheme. To top it off, they decided they would tell us under the disguise of "we have UPGRADED you". They also decided to tell us this, AND then NOT give us the details of it.

WOW, I am stunned.

We have NO clue as to what to tell clients who wish to get into the directory, or what to tell clients who are already in the directory. NO CLUE AT ALL.

These PR people actually are paid to think up things like this? Can you imagine getting paid to think up ideas about how we can SCREW our clients? Many companies screw their clients without thinking about it. Looksmart actually thinks about it for awhile, and then screws their clients. A pre-meditated screwin for sure. Nothing about this was drummed up overnight at the table. This table has coffee cups months old filling up the dishwater at LS headquarters. This smells like a long, drummed up scheme to simply find a better way to make money faster with zero regard to current clients, potential clients, and last but not least, the very end user who does a search.

WOW, I am stunned.

[Advisor]

I think we really need to reserve judgement until we see what they have in store. However, I agree that the "spin" they put on their email was unbelievable!

J

[OptWizard]

I guess all we can do is sit and wait

[ihelpyou]

While blatantly implying that for the last 1 1/2 years or so that their fee to be included was a one-time fee, no matter what comes of this in the end does not change the fact they have deceived all of us into believing that the fee we paid to be 'reviewed' and listed was the scoop. Because they are changing the rules for ALL sites, they have deceived us. There is no grandfathering, there is no difference between who is in already in and who is not in already, we are simply being duped.

We all have explained to our clients in detail what a Looksmart directory listing may mean. Our clients fully understood that this one-time fee was an important one. Now, all of that is out the door with everyone being blindsided and having to AGAIN explain to clients(some of us have many) something entirely new about the monies they already paid to this directory.

I hope LS can explain to us just how we explain it to the many newbie clients/sites that are in the LS directory ONLY because LS had people like US who have been devoted to them and giving them MANY new sites.

[ihelpyou]

Welcome to the forums eskipii! :hi:

Sorry as I did not see you sneak in here. :)

[eskipii]

its cool, i jumped in the middle of dandy one

[3rd eye]

Looksmarts new Pay-per-click prgram will that also be pay for position? or do have the same position and just pay for each click on to your site at the same flat rate for everyone?

[ihelpyou]

We have NO details yet 3rd eye. That's why we can't figure out why the heck they bothered to tell us anything. It's anyone's guess what they will do.

[eskipii]

from what i read it says that placement is not an option, their algo will set placement

[ihelpyou]

This was in a reply from LS to my inquiry about what the heck they were doing:

"Small Business Listings will have performance-based pricing. Your account will be charged a flat price per click-through to your site."

"We look forward to sharing complete details about Small Business Listings with you in the next couple of weeks. As soon as Small Business Listings is launched, we will send an email to all of our customers and extensive information will be available on the LookListings Small Business Web site. Thank you for your patience."

Just a couple of paragraphs. The rest of the email was the same jargon we all received the first time.

As soon as they launch it they will tell us? Thanks for giving us ALL a notice LS!! Great job!! :rolleyes:

Charged a flat price per click-thru? That does not sound good at all. We all know that price will be at least .15 cents a click which will put almost ALL small business out of the game.

2 weeks? What the heck do we tell our clients who are wondering about what to do right now?

sheesh. What a mess.

[OptWizard]

>>>Looksmarts new Pay-per-click prgram will that also be pay for position? or do have the same position and just pay for each click on to your site at the same flat rate for everyone?<<

As I posted above it IS NOT a pay for placement just for clicks..where you fall in rannkings depends on how you optimize to looksmart..This is coming stright form looksmart

[Advisor]

Didn't I tell you months ago that LS sucked? They keep proving it over and over again. Every time I start to like 'em, they go and screw things up again!

J

[ihelpyou]

YEs Opt, but that is surely not a benefit if they cut you off after a few days since you used up all your free clicks????? I have sites that will buzz thru them quickly. Then what? So what's the damn use of optimizing only to NOT get any hits after a couple of days??

Those same sites were getting hits ALL month long because they THOUGHT they paid a ONE-TIME fee to be in a directory. PEriod. How does Looksmart propose to explain to these sites that what they paid for was NOT what they paid for????????

There is no benefit at all from what I can see. The only benefit is to Looksmart as we all have to keep forking over more money every time we run out of clicks.

[markymark]

What a mess. Has any one using LS UK or other regional version had one of these emails ? I certainly have only had one from LS.com not from LS.co.uk, so I am assuming that my UK clients who are only in the UK directory are safe for now. However, I am at a loss as to what to tell my US clients.

I am going to suggest to one of my newest clients that they do the following - initiate a chargeback (as they will go through $299 worth of clicks in two or three days max.) and put the money into more Inktomi pages.

The others I am going to have think of something else to tell them.

[Great-1]

Come to think of it, I submitted to Looksmart via Excite last June, and I haven't had one of these emails.

[sanity]

markymark so far it seems to be for L$.com only.

Still as we all know L$AU has just gone to annual fees so maybe this is their plan for all the regionals. Then again, maybe not. Who knows with LS. Certainly not us :rolleyes:

Sophie

[SubmissoR]

It seems to me if you are in a any category, or keyword arena, everyone will run out their $299 (or ($99) worth of clicks evertually, then what?

If no one puts in more money for clicks/listings, who gets them?

It would mostly give an advantage to people willing to pay in certain areas, but less competitive areas, were people aren't actively investing $$$, it will remain the same as befoire basically.

Everyone in a category could band together to not invest more$$$, everyone would get the same clicks.

Pure speculation of course.

[newriver]

Submissor,
i just don't think thats realistic.

Let's see here...Google, Fast, Teoma...bought the only SE's i pay attention to now.

I can't wait to see what MSN does with this, and I also can't wait to see how long it takes MSN to get rid of the "10 most popular" links now that directhit re-directs to Teoma.

[nuzelonde]

http://listings.looksmart.com/?synd=none&chan=looksmart

Pretty much what I'd expect from L$ - the shallow end of the search engine gene pool.

[ihelpyou]

LOL. Two hundreds bucks right UP FRONT.

Sorry LS, You just lost one very good customer.

.15 per click?

Are you kidding me????

$15 minimum.

$49 so-called 'setup' fee.

$150 upfront for new listings are 'disguised' as a deposit. In reality, that money is used for your click-thrus.

Total upfront for a new listing? .. $199 bucks.

Can't you tell it like it is LS???

OH, and a good one:

A site is charged $15 EVERY month if it does not have 100 or more clicks in a month! You are penalized because of a listing you have virtually ZERO control over.

[ihelpyou]

Use the drop-down menu on the "Set Your Budget" page to set your monthly budget. Your monthly budget equals the maximum amount of traffic you'd like sent to your site each month.
Once your listing is added to the LookSmart directory, your account will be debited $0.15 per click-through to your site.
When the total value of your clicks equals your monthly budget, traffic to your site will be temporarily paused until the beginning of the next billing cycle. LookSmart will notify you when you hit your monthly budget.
At the beginning of your next billing cycle, if your account balance is below your monthly budget level, we will "refill" your account up to your budget level and charge your credit card accordingly. For example, if your monthly budget is $75 and your account balance is $10 at the end of your monthly billing cycle, we will automatically add $65 to your account and charge your credit card for that amount.
For customers purchasing their first Small Business Listing, LookSmart requires an initial account deposit of $150.
This one-time account deposit is entirely applicable to clicks.
Any unused portion of this deposit is refundable.
If you set your monthly budget at a level greater than $150, your initial deposit will be equal to your monthly budget.
Your initial billing cycle is 40 days. We have extended the first billing cycle by 10 days to accommodate for the editorial review process and ensure that your listing receives a full month of activity.
We require a minimum monthly traffic charge of $15 for your account. If the listings in your account receive fewer than 100 clicks in total, you are subject to the $15 minimum fee.
I know some people who could work for Looksmart and do VERY well there as they are the kind of people that would be able to think up a scheme such as this one......... screw your customer.

[Advisor]

But still no news on what happens to sites that were just submitted at $299? I can't believe I just friggen paid them $299 for a site, 2 hours before their stupid announcement. I wanna know what it gets me NOW. I don't see that anywhere, or am I missing it?

J

[ihelpyou]

No info on the freebies we get.

Also, some sites(many) have paid for multiple Url's in the directory. This new scheme says you can only have ONE url in the directory per one web site.

What the heck happens to the other PAID url's?? Are they simply dropped?

[nuzelonde]

M$ are obviously in cahoots with this change. A further example of how monopolies kill the little guy.

Also...lets remember spam and ethics discussions, eh.

We must not "spam". We must behave well. We must obey terms and conditions. We must not deceive.

Doesn't apply to L$, obviously. Charming.

Say it once, say it loud "I hate L$ and I'm proud!" ;)

[ihelpyou]

This is a very good example of a big directory absolutely leaving the little web site completely INVISIBLE. No doubt about that.

Those little sites were doing pretty good in LS before. They cannot possibly afford those high click-thru charges and new sites affording a high setup fee just to start paying for clickthrus to boot!

Oh my. How very sad. I know I am going to have quite a few pissed off clients.

[ihelpyou]

ah, just wondering how MSN will describe their new directory listing sites? Are they going to state ALL the listings are PAID ads now?

That is, except those non-commercial sites that are in ZEAL. Of course, a site HAS to be an editor at Zeal just to submit his/her url there.

sheesh.

[Advisor]

And speaking of Zeal, I wonder what happens to those sites?

[ihelpyou]

Supposedly they get mixed in with the 'paid ads' in Looksmart and throughout the partners.

[Advisor]

Zeal becomes even more important. Until LookSmart runs itself into the ground, of course.

J

[ihelpyou]

yeah, but how the heck do you get a site into Zeal easily??

Also, who's to say the free zeal listings will not be buried under all the listings Looksmart and affiliates make money on?

I'm still wondering what LS is going to do with Wisenut? Seems like a bonehead purchase at this point.

Again we have many unanswered questions.

[Jastor]

Greetings!!

My site listing just came through on LookSmart.

I e-mailed the those scum bags a few days ago asking that someone from LookSmart contact me to discuss billing.

I stated in the e-mail that I ABSOLUTELY DID NOT WANT MY CREDIT CARD TO BE AUTOMATICALLY BILLED. I further stated in the e-mail that I was very concerned about the upcoming changes and that I needed to discuss my concerns with someone from LookSmart ASAP.

Those jerks haven't even had the decency to reply. :6:

Does anyone have a direct phone number for LookSmart??


And Here's one more thought:

I paid for the $150 Express Submit about a week and a half before they announced the Small Business Listings Scam. As a result, I paid no account setup fee. LookSmart's Account help contains the following questions and answers:


How do I cancel my LookSmart account?

To make your Small Business Listing account inactive, cancel each one of your listings. To cancel your listings, click the Cancel link next to each of your listings in the Account Summary section.

Is my account balance refundable?

The money remaining in your account after you have cancelled your listings is refundable. Note: It may take up to 90 days for your request to be processed.

How do I request a refund of my account balance?

If you have deactivated your LookSmart account by canceling each of your listings, you may request a refund of your unspent account balance. To request a refund, please fill out the Billing Inquiries form.


I could be nuts, but if I'm reading this information correctly, it sounds like if I cancel my listing before they start billing under the Small Business Listing Scam, I can get a full refund within 90 days. :D

What do you guys think? :confused:

Am I nuts???

Please, be kind. :D

[Jastor]

OOOHHHHHH!!! And one more thing.

When LookSmart was kind enough to include my paid listing into their database, they took the liberty of changing my site title. :mad:

I know Search Engines usually reserve the right to adjust your listing somewhat when they add it to their database, but it really ticked me off. The name of my company is Gambit Systems, LLC.

They decided to list the site tiltle just as Gambit Systems.

Because the company is a Limited Liability Company, I am legally required to make it as plain as possible to perspective clients that Gambit Systems has liability protection by displaying the LLC abbreviation.

LookSmart just took it upon themself to NOT DISPLAY the full name of my company. I could understand if I was being overly wordy, but this is rediculous.

Ok, I'm done typing. :D

[Great-1]

I've done some Maths for this abomination, and I've come up with this conlcusion:

Looksmart are having a laugh

I've worked out that it costs a minimum of $379 for 1st year.

For me, getting 2600 visitors from Looksmart a month, it would cost me:

0.15 * 2606 = $390.9 per month

and

$48,890.80 a year

Does that sound cost effective to anyone???

[ihelpyou]

When you put it like that,....... a big wow.

$400 a month to get 2600 clicks?? WOW.

[Advisor]

Jastor, did you email them back and ask them to fix the LLC thing? If you told them that you are legally required to display that, I'm sure they would have added it back in. How long ago did you submit? You might still be able to get them to do it now.

J

[Jastor]

Jill,

Yes I did ask them to please make the change. Hopefully they will.

I know that at present I'm not an SEO company, I'm just trying to promote my own site. But, this whole Small Business listings scam makes me very nervous none the less. My business is new and like most new businesses I don't have money to waste.
After Great-1's last post, I am wondering whether or not I shouldn't just cancel my LookSmart Account.

I am going to be calling LookSmart today. I finally found a phone number for them. I'll let you know what, if anything, I find out.

I made my previous comments about getting a full refund, because legal language can be like a two edged sword. The say that the site submit and express inclusion services are no more and that they have been "upgraded" and replaced by the Small Business Listings scam. According to what I have read on their site, the $150 investment can be refunded if it is left unused in your account. According to their new rules, it is only the $49 Set-up fee that is non-refundable.

What do you think?

Thanks for your reply to my previous post.

[Advisor]

I don't know what to think yet. I'm waiting for them to send the email out that describes the whole program in detail and what happens to sites that recently submitted at $299. Until then, I'm reserving judgement. But, personally, I think changing the rules in the middle of the game is very bad business. Very bad.

Jill

[MazY]

If it were me, and I have done similar before for another company, I would send a very similar e-mail to help resolve an issue that we were having with the product or service.

You send the e-mail, get reaction to the e-mail and that then helps forms the answer to your question/issue. I suspect that is what is happening here. Nobody invites trouble, especially companies of that size. The e-mail was not sent out without reason, of that you can be sure.

The smart thing to do, when all is going well, is to send out the e-mail notice when you're ready for launch, not some time before. The latter invites trouble and a very negative launch.

My advice, for what it is worth, is to reply to the e-mail, expressing your concerns. (Politely of course.) I think that is the point of the e-mail, though why they couldn't just say that is beyond me.

[ihelpyou]

The $150 will be used for 'clicks' to your site. It will not be refunded unless you do not wish to receive clicks. It is simply a deposit for clicks received.

Setup fee is essentially $199 as you pay for your clicks ahead of time. The $49 is a 'review' fee. This is all spelled out in their FAQ on the site.

Of course, if you are already in, these fees do not apply to you. You will get a predetermined(undetermined) as of yet, free amount of clicks to your site every month. After those are used up, the clicks to your site are stopped for that month unless you give LS more dollars to keep going. This happens month after month after month after month.

[Alan Perkins]

Originally posted by Great-1
I've done some Maths for this abomination ... 0.15 * 2606 = $390.9 per month ... $48,890.80 a yearYou mean you've done some abominable maths...$390 per month is $4680 per year.

As for whether it's worthwhile, here's some more math(s) for you:

Here's my simple (ignoring fixed costs and labour) patent-pending (LOL) ROI calculator so you can see roughly whether it's worthwhile:

Break even conversion rate (%) = 100 * CPC / Margin

Where CPC and Margin are both in the same unit of currency and the conversion rate (%) is the percentage of visitors you convert to sales.

e.g. if the CPC is $0.15, the Break even conversion rate (%) = 15 / Margin, where Margin is what you make on a sale in $. This shows that if your margin is $15, you need a 1% conversion rate to break even. If your margin is 15 cents, you need a 100% conversion rate to break even. If your margin is less than 15 cents, you can't afford to pay for the advertising!

So, Great-1, you know your margin. What conversion rate do you need to break even? And can Looksmart's relevancy algo deliver it?

Hint: you can re-arrange the above equation so that with any two knowns, you can find the unknown break-even

Break even Margin = 100 * CPC / conversion rate (%)
Break even CPC = Margin * conversion rate (%) / 100

Originally posted by Great-1 (in sig)
Hand made Wedding StationaryStationary? Stationery, Shirley!

[Great-1]

Yes thank you Alan - I realised I made a slight mis-calculation with my MATHS (couldn't resist).

I've also had the error in my signature pointed out before - I'm just to lazy to change it :D









and don't call me Shirley

[ihelpyou]

His name is not Shirley, it's Great-1.

[Great-1]

Originally posted by ihelpyou
His name is not Shirley, it's Great-1.

Well, it used to Shirley, before the operation :D

[MsSearch]

some new info on LookSmart PPC (http://www.pandia.com/sw-2002/13-looksmart.html) ...

--at least Zeal is still free and will still be included in LS....

AND..."LookSmart staff has been reported to say that they cannot guarantee MSN inclusion in the future." (from Pandia)...

<running off to pray that MSN drops LS sooner rather than later...>

[ihelpyou]

--at least Zeal is still free and will still be included in LS....
hmm. I see no incentive for L$ to give any Zeal listing a good rank for anything at all. Why would they? L$ will only get paid to rank the sites who "Pay Per Click". They have zero incentive to rank freebie sites at all. I don't see it happening.

[Advisor]

Doug, are you suggesting that LookSmart will put the "kibosh" on all Zeal listings, and therefore they will show up underneath PPC listings for their relevant keyphrases?

J

[ihelpyou]

Seeing how they have gone about this whole thing and seeing how they are forcing small business out, yes, that is how I see it. The Zeal listings give L$ no revenue coming in. The CPC listings give L$ a steady stream of revenue coming in. (the listings that pay, anyway)

[ihelpyou]

Look at the lawsuit already filed against those search engines who 'disguise' the fact that 'paid ads' are paid ads? Now, we will have both 'paid ads' and Zeal listings all clumped together in the results. L$ will not have a chance of defending the lawsuit. It will be much worse than what it is now.

What will they do? Along with each CPC listing will be a line that says "Paid Advertisement"? I kind of doubt it.

sheesh. Talk about blurring the line between what is paid and what is not!

[Advisor]

Quite a blurry line, indeed.

J

[nuzelonde]

I wonder if we're in the twighlight days of search engine optimisation?

Evidence:

-There is, effectively, only one search engine left.
-PPC and paid inclusion has largely reduced the SEO role to that of bid account manager.
-Most high profile SEO personalities make money by giving seminars on SEO. Is the profession merely feeding off itself?
-Every man and his dog, and his dog's dog, offers SEO. There are no barriers to entry, making it hard to reconcile effort with reward.
-Search is becoming monetarised content.

The technical process is fast becoming a historical artifact. There will be no more free marketing on the internet.

Perhaps a new name for what we do could be "bid account managers"?

[ihelpyou]

Naw. There will be new engines coming to the forefront. There will always be a need to optimize for them. Gigablast, Inktomi, Google, altavista, msn, alltheweb, etc, all need to be optimized for. More are around the corner.

You will still have to optimize for L$ as I doubt anything changes there. They say you do not pay for position and will have an algo.

I see SEO as thriving for years to come.

[nuzelonde]

There will be new engines coming to the forefront. There will always be a need to optimize for them. Gigablast, Inktomi, Google, altavista, msn, alltheweb, etc, all need to be optimized for

There are ten million engines now. Only a few drive any traffic. Only those with market share are (will be) worth the effort.

Aside: Here's a thought: AJ and L$ may have bought their upcoming competitors in order to remove them from the playing field. Old M$ trick.

I don't deny that search engine traffic is, and will still be, worth while. I just don't think there is much money in it for the middle-woman compared to other endevours. Personally, I'm starting to do stuff in the mobile world where there are higher barriers to entry and easy on-going revenue.

A workable SEO model relies on billing hours. The supplier cost is now eating into the margin. One could push the price up, but then it's damn hard to provide compelling ROI. The suppliers are squeezing the margin on the middle woman. The model still works for me, I just wonder how long it's got left. My graphs show more clients, but downward trend on profitability.

Back to the business case and drawing board, I guess...
Perhaps I better start giving seminars ;)

[Advisor]

PPC and paid inclusion has largely reduced the SEO role to that of bid account manager. True as far as PPC goes. But not all SEOs even do PPC. That's an ad agency's job in my opinion.

PPI actually makes the SEO's role even more vital. Why pay to be included if you can't get good rankings?Most high profile SEO personalities make money by giving seminars on SEO. Not true at all. There's not a lot of money to be made that way. We do those to get more SEO biz! You have your cause and effect mixed up.Every man and his dog, and his dog's dog, offers SEO.Yes, but are they any good at it? No.

Free content will always be available. Just may not be found in the same places where used to, in a few years.

For now, SEO is far from dead. You can read about my thoughts on whether or not SEO is a dying art (http://www.rankwrite.com/archives/issue079.htm#moreseo) if you're so inclined.

Jill

[nuzelonde]

I think your article is a good one.

Not true at all. There's not a lot of money to be made that way. We do those to get more SEO biz! You have your cause and effect mixed up.

Hmmm....not according to a high profile chap I know, who shall remain nameless.

I'm not sure it will ever die completely. The more important question is will the effort be worth the reward?

Anyone bought a Porsche yet?

[Advisor]

Thanks! Well, I don't have a Porshe yet, but I'm well on my way. SEO is very, very hot right now, and those speaking engagements, and my newsletter help keep me in the faces of companies who are looking for someone who knows what they're doing.

For now, the life of a good SEO is very sweet.

Jill

[nuzelonde]

For now, the life of a good SEO is very sweet.

hehe...interesting turn of phrase ;)

I've found "good" has a little to do with it (repeat business, recommendations) but most work requires an effective sales channel. Luckily, I'm part of a bigger company that does a lot of cross selling.

What you know is one thing.

Who you know is a bigger thing :)

[Advisor]

Well, I guess everyone works differently. I have no sales channels, and if I did, I'd have to contract the work out. I already have *almost* more than I can handle right now!

Good DOES have a lot to do with it for companies that know a bit about SEO. Those that you cold call, you can tell them anything you want. But those actively looking, are looking for some one *good* i.e., with a proven track record for solid results.

J

[Jastor]

I just got off the phone with Look Smart.

I expressed some of my concerns about this upcoming Small Business Listings Scam, and here is what I was told:

Shortly Look Smart will be sending out an e-mail to all Basic Submit and Express Submit customers containing instructions on how to "Activate" and "Manage" your Small Business Listings Account.

I asked the Look Smart rep to define "Activate".

The rep said that Basic Submit and Express Submit sites would be granted several months worth of free clicks at the onset of the Small Business Listing scam, and that you will need to log in through your Look Smart account, and set up your billing opitons (i.e. What your budgeted monthly spending will be for CPC, and your method of payment)

For clarification, I told the rep that I was concerned about the automated billing.

The rep said that no Small Business Listings account holder will have their credit card automatically billed unless they specifically authorize it when they activiate their Small business listings account.

That makes me feel a little bit better. But I still have my concerns and reservations. I didn't ask what "several months worth of free clicks" meant because the rep said that everything would be clearly explained in the instructions that will be sent out shortly.

I figured that if I kept the guy on the phone with further questions, I would've needed another hour. :D

I plan on waiting for the instructions, and if they really don't satisfactorily explain everything then I will be giving Look Smart another call.

Has anyone else been able to get any further information out of Look Smart???

When I called Look Smart, I called their corporate headquarters at: 415.348.7000

In order to get a live person on the phone to speak with, I told the person that answered that I had questions about my Basic Site Submission and she put me right through to someone. I didn't even mention Small Business Listings, and I didn't choose any options related to it. If you choose options related to Small Business Listings, you will be forwared to an automated message that explains the so-called benefits of the program. After the recorded explanation, they hang up on you.

Does anyone have any thoughts??

[Advisor]

Did the rep really call it a Small Business scam? :green:

That would be pretty funny...might as well call it what it is!

So, that still doesn't explain what happens to someone like me who paid for a listing 2 hours before the first email came out. I'll just be waiting patiently for my new email to arrive.

Right now, LS is looking pretty darn scummy. We paid to be in their directory and they're not giving it to us. How about a class action law suit anyone?

J

[3rd eye]

Does anyone no if we are charged for our people clicking on to our site from MSN yet?

[MsSearch]

I do not know if they are tracking the clicks yet ...i haven't received any update email as to what is going on with my previous listings but i was able to log into my account and there was no click data available...and i have been receiving traffic from MSN....

but they may already be charging those customers who recently signed up for the Small Business Scam....and not those who paid the one-time fee....although i would think that even though I do get a certain number of free clicks that i would be able to log in and see how many clicks i have received so far...

[Jastor]

I don't think that L$ is actively tracking clicks yet. When you log into your account you see the following notices:

Attention: The LookListings Small Business site will be down for maintenance starting at 4:00 PM PDT. Please complete your order by that time.

We are currently upgrading your listings to NEW Small Business Listings. During this process your listing information will not be accessible. We are working quickly to minimize any inconvenience. Please check back soon to learn more about your upgraded Small Business Listings.

Not only that, but L$ has not yet sent the e-mail out that provides instructions as to how to "Activate" and "Manage" the Small Business Listings account.

Other than just plain waiting, I think the only way to get any somewhat straight answers is for people to start making more direct phone calls to Look Smart.

[Kal]

Originally posted by Advisor
Right now, LS is looking pretty darn scummy. We paid to be in their directory and they're not giving it to us. How about a class action law suit anyone?

J
Hey Jill - I suggested that before but you thought the L$ Terms & Conditions would allow them to get away with it. I still think I smell a law suit coming on - they can't narrow the goal posts in the middle of the soccer game and expect to get away with it. :mad:

<edit>Forgot to say - nice article on this issue in your latest newsletter Jill! Summed up this scam nicely and hopefully rattled their cage too!</edit>

[Jastor]

Jill,

I just read your latest article on Look Smart. I have to say that it was excellent.

I hope Look Smart takes notice of it.

In my particular case, all I can do is let them know that if they continue in their existing unethical, rediculous, and frankly underhanded business tactics, I will cancel my Look Smart account.

But, you and others that run SEO companies have the potential to exert some real influence on Look Smart if they're not to stupid and or stuborn to listen. If they hear enough complaints from SEO companies, one would hope that they will realize that SEO companies will act to steer all their existing and perspective clients away from investing in Look Smart services.

Then again, that would only be the case if you are dealing with reasonable people at Look Smart. By all outward appearances, the reasonable people must not be in management.

I really wonder how MSN search results will be affected?

[Advisor]

I think that this is why we haven't seen any email from them yet. They're trying to cover their a$$es the best they can.

Kal, I don't know about the law suit thing. There rules say they don't have to add your site, don't give refunds, and can remove your site whenever they like. But still, there was a certain understanding as to what the $299 was going towards. I have no idea about the legalities...it just seems like common sense that if you make a deal for one thing, you can't just change it later. But they must know that...

I'm still just waiting for my email from them trying to spin their way out of this.

J

[Advisor]

This is an official communication about your LookSmart listings.
Read this message to understand how to get your $300 in free clicks per listing.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Dear Valued Customer:

LookSmart has launched Small Business Listings, our first pay-per-click product for small businesses. This new, improved product replaces both Submit and Site Promote. Full details are available at http://listings.looksmart.com.

Because you're a valued customer who submitted a listing before April 9, 2002, we've automatically upgraded you to Small Business Listings.
Your account has already been updated and is ready for you to log in.
We've waived the $49 per listing set-up fee.
We'll give you $300 in free clicks per listing. Each month for the next 20 months you'll receive a $15 credit per listing in your account – starting today.

Thank gawd.

[Advisor]

But wait a minute. I have a whole slew of client sites in my account...trying to figure out if I get only $15 a month for ALL those sites. If so, there's something desparately wrong with this program. Will have to figure this out tomorrow. It doesn't look good at first glance though...hope I'm wrong!

Wait, it says per listing. I think we're okay on that then.

Jill

[Chris_D]

So Jill, "every month, for 20 months, you'll get $15 worth of clicks....." and that link you posted says the clicks are 15 cents a piece = 100 clicks/month.....

"And then....... LS woke up from the dream...... where they thought they could set an entry price 3 times higher than Goverture........ and realised no one had signed up for anything since 9th April, 2002.. but now it was too late..... and they were in a nightmare - and were now in deeper financial dodo than ever before"

Can't wait for the MSN deal to expire....

[blizkrieg bop]

I just got my "Dear Valued Customer" letter from them.

I sent them my $300 last month and wish now I had waited. I'm confused by the whole thing.

I'm going camping starting tomorrow morning and I'll try to forget about all of this. Hope when I come back here there will be a bunch of opinions about the small business listing. :debate:

[blizkrieg bop]

Found this in their FAQ:

What happens if I use up the entire free monthly account credit?

If your listing receives clicks equal to your free monthly account credit, you will be notified and given the opportunity to raise your monthly account budget above the initial free account credit level. By raising your monthly budget, you are increasing the amount of traffic your listing can receive each month.

If you chose not to increase you monthly budget, traffic to you listing will be temporarily interrupted once it has received clicks equal to your free monthly account credit. Your account will be refilled and your listing will begin receiving traffic again at the beginning of your next monthly billing period.

[Kal]

I started another thread before I noticed Jill had posted the email here too. I think I'm getting my head around it now, but it still stinks!

One of my clients submitted their site to Looksmart way back in the days of their free submission and now they are not even entitled to any free clicks. How does LookI'mNotSoSmart pay back their long time supporters? That's right by dropping them completely. What a way to run a company - put your customers last.

Did you see their new slogan "Paid Inclusion - It's the relevancy of your site, not the size of your wallet" Are you kidding me?? Only those companies who fork out yet more money for "relevancy keywords" will be deemed relevant to appear!! I'm amazed at their audacity :eek:

[searchenginemarketing4u]

The $49 fee should be waived, but when you set up your keywords it tries to charge you the fee!

[Alan Perkins]

Let's suppose you did what you always thought you would be doing and never spent another dime on a site you had already paid Looksmart for. Let's just look at what your "upgrade" gives you:

Previously, unlimited clicks per month
Now, 100 clicks per month maximum
In 20 months, zero clicks

Some upgrade!

[ihelpyou]

wow. I am sooo impressed with the GREAT update we are receiving. Gosh, I am surprised about the generosity of Looksmart.

100 clicks a month? Let's see, that's about 3.5 clicks a day? How many of you have clients that will blow thru this in a few days? I do. Then they get nothing until their couple day's worth of clicks the next month.

I am disgusted.

Thanks for the upgrade LS. You would think they would have made the free clicks .10 or so, but NO. They would not want to be perceived as giving away anything.

On second thought, I have some who will blow thru these FREE clicks in HALF a day!

[Alan Perkins]

Originally posted by searchenginemarketing4u
The $49 fee should be waived, but when you set up your keywords it tries to charge you the fee!That's because the "set-up" (good word) fee is waived (nice of them), but changing your title or description or adding "relevancy" keywords costs you $49 a time as this not "set-up" but "Update Listing"! If you really want to do this, you should have received a bonus coupon giving you $20 off. Check at the bottom of your notifying e-mail.

[ihelpyou]

hmmm. I guess we all could simply wait until July 9th to log in and start up the free clicks? At least we are actually getting something that way as LS will not delete us unless we don't log in. Until then, the sites will keep receiving the clicks as they always have. Right?

[MsSearch]

by ihelpyou -- I guess we all could simply wait until July 9th to log in and start up the free clicks?

Where do you see that you need to log into your account by July 9th? Am I missing something?

[Mel]

Right now it seems that I can't log on to Look$mart but this information is on the acount login page if I remember correctly.

[MsSearch]

After reading the other thread going on in our LS forum, I realized that 2 different emails went out...one for Express Submit and a slightly different one for SIte promote clients...I guess i only got the Site Promote email even though I have many more clients in my account that only used the Express Submit...

[Kal]

Originally posted by MsSearch
I guess i only got the Site Promote email even though I have many more clients in my account that only used the Express Submit...
Yep. I got both types of emails because I have multiple LS accounts. The account that has 1 Site Promote client also has 8 Express Submit clients, but because Site Promote was already associated with this account, the account was automatically activated for ALL 8 URL's (8 different clients!) in the same account. I didn't have to log-in to activate any of those 8 listings but for all my other accounts they need me to activate.

This is how I'm interpreting the new deal: if you activate, you get 100 free clicks per URL for 20 mths based on your existing description and title. After the 100 clicks run out your site no longer appears for searches relating to your L$ description and title until the start of the next month. If you don't activate you get nothing for your original investment and your listing is dropped.

If you were a Site Promote customer, you will continue to be billed for $29.95 per month extra and your site gets an additional 200 clicks per month (29.95 divided by 0.15 = 200) for searches on the keywords you bought with Site Promote AS WELL AS searches relating to your L$ title and description. You can cancel your $29.95 per month at any time, just like before. If you aren't a Site Promote customer, you can pay $49 to update your listing with revised title, description and "relevancy keywords".

I think this is right. And it all stinks big time.

[ihelpyou]

This is how I'm interpreting the new deal: if you activate, you get 100 free clicks per URL for 20 mths based on your existing description and title. After the 100 clicks run out your site no longer appears for searches relating to your L$ description and title until the start of the next month. If you don't activate you get nothing for your original investment and your listing is dropped.
Okay fine. That still does not answer this question:

You are a site already listed in Looksmart and paid the fee of 199 or 299 or any of the old prices to be listed. You have Not logged in or 'activated' your account yet. You don't activate your account until July10th. What happens between Now and July 10th? No one has answered that question.

[Mel]

Hi Doug:

It appears you get your 100 free clicks per month until July 10, then you are dropped form the L$ database if you choose not to activate.

[Kal]

Originally posted by Mel
It appears you get your 100 free clicks per month until July 10, then you are dropped form the L$ database if you choose not to activate.
Actually Mel I don't think you do unless you activate. Doug wants to know what happens between now and then if you DON'T activate. I'm not sure about that but I'm guessing that all listings stay the same as they've always been until July 10 and then they get dropped if you haven't activated. If that's the case, there may be some value in not activating till the last possible minute.

[Mel]

Hi Kal:
If you log into your account you will see that it is already set up to get the free 100 clicks per month.

This is all covered in the L$ FAQs, including the statement that no matter when you activate your account you will only get 20 months free clicks so there is no advantage in waiting.