Which design software to use?

[guruh]

Okay here I am again with another rather generic question... lol

I am trying to decide which software to purchase for a:

1- Non HTML programmer - me
2- Price under $400
3- I want to develop a professional e-commerce site and I am willing to put the time in to properly use the software but I really don't want to have to learn HTML programming if I can avoid it.
:D

I currently own FrontPage 2002 but am not sure its going to do the job. I am looking at Dreamweaver but not sure I can learn to do it :confused:

Any and all comments or help is much appreciated.

[ihelpyou]

You already have the best software for a beginner and one that many professionals use anyway in FP. You will never be able to do the e-commerce thing on your own though as you need a shopping cart and an online processor. Since you are new, you would not be able to go about this easily.

As far as a html editor, stick with FP as it is a good learning one.

[Blue]

but I really don't want to have to learn HTML programming if I can avoid it Well, therein lies your conundrum. Most people would agree, I believe, that if you have no knowledge about the tool you use, the end result would reflect just that.

Apples & oranges I know, but, would you feel safe riding in a car with a driver who didn't want to learn how to drive?

So IMHO, it comes down to whether you want a properly functional, professional looking site. What do you think your prospective customers would want?

Hire a pro, or take the time to learn.

Now, with that all said, Doug's comments are spot on. FP is a great editor and there are plenty of sites out there to help you through the learning curve.

Personally, I prefer Dreamweaver, but use FP in certain situations.

[ihelpyou]

Good point! ALL OF US had to do one or the other. We either learn a little about html or we don't and hire someone to build it for us. Just that some of us are better at html and web design than others. :rolleyes:

Ya can't have it both ways. You want a good site so ya either learn it or ya don't.

lol. I just had a potential client the other day tell me the EXACT same thing. "but I don't want to learn html AND I don't want to hire anyone as it costs money".

lol. I told him then that he does NOT want to be on the internet then. lol

[WebSavvy]

There's an excellent new resource online located here at http://www.tutorialengine.com and there is PLENTY of good information there.

Hope this helps! :)

[guruh]

Well, thats all very good advice and I'll take it... I think I will give HTML a try and try to learn enough to add some special touches, etc. I am checking into Dreamweaver MX and playing around with the beta a bit... It looks scary thought for an old man.. lol

[tlpretender]

Hi Guru,

My preference is also Dreamweaver. However, if you are just starting out. NetObjects may be a good way to go. I still use the program often if I have to make a site very quickly. The program won't teach HTML, but it is easy to use as you do not have to mess with tables, etc... I actually prefer the version 5 over the current MX.

http://www.netobjects.com/
http://www.netobjects.com/products/html/download.html

TL:)

[Matt B]

I can't tell you how valuable it is to have a good foundation of HTML. There is no other way to troubleshoot the little quirks that develop when creating sites, pages, etc. It comes in very handy when trying to make things look the same in Netscape and IE. WSIWYG programs are good, but ultimately, you will have to develop a better than average knowledge of HTML if you want to do this yourself.

Just my $0.02 . . .
. . . . If I posted this at L$ it would be my $0.15.

[Blue]

Here's (http://webforums.macromedia.com/dreamweaver/categories.cfm?catid=189) a link to Macromedia's Dreamweaver forums. Chock full of great info, and very friendly to newbies.

If you have any DW questions, I'd be happy to help out, guruh. You can email or PM me.

[guruh]

Hey, thanks very much!!! I really appreciate your help and all the help everyone has provided on both of the issues I have asked about. I hope I will be able to help someone in these forums somehow.

:cheers:

[Kal]

Hi Ralph :hi:

I build and edit all my own sites using Front Page. I am not a designer at all. I did take a half day course in HTML many years ago and have expanded on that. I know what looks good to me and I work with that and then get feedback from clients and colleagues. I received some terrific feedback from members in these forums on my last site design - it really helps.

For beginners, I strongly recommend using Front Page in combination with a basic book on web design - either a "Front Page for dummies" type book or a step-by-step type manual. Have fun, experiment and expect to revise your design every few weeks as you get better.

Re your ecommerce needs, I would find yourself a good site host that can provide a shopping cart feature or build the order forms yourself and use a 3rd party service such as PayPal.com to receive payments via (althought read up in the forums about them as there are some problems associated with them at present). Good luck!

[crifer]

Hello! IMO Dreamweaver is the program you should learn and use. I have atended a course in webdesign and used a book called H.O.T (http://www.lynda.com/products/books/dw4hot/index.html) it's an exellent beginnier book that teach you the foundation in DW. The book is splitted in chapters that's just long enough so you learn and not get bored. It comes with a cd that have a complete site and let you rebuild that site, learning that basics and using mouseover functions and so on. It's easy to read and understand. The cd contain a trial of dreamweaver and fireworks if you don't have that. If your new to webdesign it's a great book to learn from.

Kristoffer

[guruh]

Thanks again to both of you for your recent comments. I wonder if I can use both Dreamweaver and FrontPage in combination with on another? Start the project out with FP and polish it as it goes along with DW. Probably not. I have begun my project for my new page with FP and I will let the forum know how its going.

:cheers:

Gu

[Blue]

Hi guruh....

I wonder if I can use both Dreamweaver and FrontPage in combination with on another? Start the project out with FP and polish it as it goes along with DW. The answer to this question is..... Yes ..... and No.

Allow me to explain. You can use both programs in the design process. BUT....for some of FP's functionality to stay intact, you need to upload the pages containing that functionality (functions that require FP extensions on the server) using FP only. For other pages that don't use FP extensions, you can upload them in DW.

For instance, I recently did some maintenance on a site that was designed in FP (not by me), and had a certain FP extension in use. It was the only page that contained this function, and if I uploaded it using DW, the function wouldn't function. When uploaded using FP (had to save it first in FP), the function functioned properly.

With that all said, let me state that I believe this is correct, but since I use FP so rarely, maybe another more experiencd FP user can confirm?

[crifer]

Originally posted by Blue
For instance, I recently did some maintenance on a site that was designed in FP (not by me), and had a certain FP extension in use. It was the only page that contained this function, and if I uploaded it using DW, the function wouldn't function. When uploaded using FP (had to save it first in FP), the function functioned properly.

What Blue really mean is, don't use front page :D

[Matt B]

Heh, Heh crifer - that's the best endorsement for FrontPage I've heard in a while. Personally, I try not to react too badly when a client tells me they did their site in FP.

I'm going to go against the grain and recommend Homesite. HTML all the way, Baby! :D

[OptWizard]

I just got Dreamweaver and it blows FP away

[ihelpyou]

That's all fine and dandy guys/gals but for a beginner, FP is what guru should be using. Much easier to learn when starting out than dreamweaver is. Besides, I know many out there who are very good designers and they still use FP. Nothing wrong with it at all.

[crifer]

Seriously i think FP is not a bad program, i use it when i made my first homepage but I crossed over to DW. I think if you start using and learning DW you can't be without it.

[sanity]

I'd agree with SEO Guy. HomeSite is excellent.

Ralph while you are learning a good thing to do is view the source of sites you like. It gives you an idea of what others have done.

Sophie

[peter_d]

The problem with WYSIWYG editors such as FrontPage and Dreamweaver is that they both produce bloated code. Front Page is terrible for this. Dreamweaver is better, but still leaves a lot to be desired.

I use Dreamweaver for the basic layout, but then delve straight into the code to tidy things up.

I'd recommend taking some time to learn HTML first.

Also, check out www.zeldman.com. Hardcore, but very worthwhile reading.

[markymark]

I agree with Peter_D re: the code bloat. HTML really isn't difficult and with a good HTML editor like HomeSite or even AceHTML, it shouldn't take more than a couple of days to get the hang of.

I pretty much hand code everything, but I did play around with IBM WebSphere HomePage (I think that's what it's called) fairly recently and thought it was excellent both in terms of ease of use and producing clean code. It's about the same price as FrontPage too and an infinitely superior product.

[Blue]

All three of the last posts are spot on.

Sanity's point is a great one for beginners and seasoned pro's alike.

peter_d is correct about code bloat and I'm sure most of us pro's spend time with code clean-up.

And markymark is right, too. Html is probably the easiest language to learn, especially in conjunction with sanity's suggestion.

I would like to add that I believe WYSIWYG editors have the advantage, especially for beginners, in that they can drastically cut down the time spent in creating sites (though I'm sure you hand coders work like lightning).

DW is especially nice in that it is highly customizable, right down to being able to edit the source formatting of the program itself in order to gain finer control of the HTML it outputs, as well as being able to create your own commands and floating panels.

[WebSavvy]

I use EditPad for everything. I write all the code myself, by hand, line by line, the old fashioned way.

Then when I need to see the page as I make progress, click save, and then open it up in windows explorer and you can see exactly what you have so far.

You can also visit http://www.webmastersden.com He has a lot of HTML tutorials listed there. It really is very easy to learn. Then once it gets in your blood you'll be moving on to more powerful things like JavaScript (easy), then PHP (easy), then Perl (a little more difficult).

So far I'd say that XML, and XHTML, have been the most difficult to learn.

[Matt B]

Kudo's to you Deb, that's impressive.

I'm glad someone addressed the bloated code issue. Most of my initial quotes to clients include about 1-2 hours a page simply cleaning up extraneous code, depending on the generator. I have used Adobe GoLive in the past with some success, it produces some good code, but it does some funky things with JavaScript.

Aaaah, the memories . . . I actually started out using Netscape 4 Composer and the free Adobe photo editing software that came with my printer for image optimization. How's that for a shoestring budget? Now I am exclusively HomeSite, but I give the hard stuff (ASP, PHP, Perl) to the real programmers.

[kneelsit]

Hi Guruh,

Unfortunately there is no getting away from learning SOME basic HTML if you are serious about making up your web page and having it work well across different browsers.

One of the best little HTML editors you can get to learn HTML with is called EditPlus. Has capability for java, css, text etc. and all the tags are coloured - so you can see exactly what text you have written. You can keep clicking on the icon as you go, to see how your site is coming in the browser

One major problem I have found with WYSIWYG editors - as many of our members here have already pointed - is HTML bloat or huge slabs of irrelevant tags that can fill your page with garbage and add 20% or more to its size.

Anyway - a warm welcome :hi: to the crazy, frustating but fun world of web design where the learning never stops! :D

http://www.editplus.com/

[WebSavvy]

Hey Greg, EditPlus and EditPad are by the same guy. I use EditPad. I swear by it. It's the best editor I've ever used. It's nice because you can add different extensions for .dat, .htm, .shtml, .exe, .js, .css, .cgi, .pl, .pm, and anything else that you need.

I've not ever been able to locate another editor that'll let you have it all the way this one does.

[Blue]

...you can add different extensions for .dat, .htm, .shtml, .exe, .js, .css, .cgi, .pl, .pm, and anything else that you need. Dreamweaver does this as well.

[kneelsit]

Hi DEb,

Will have a look at that but for now I am more than happy with Plus I must admit to my shame that I had it for over 60 days before I finally said to myself - "this is so useful that in all conscience I should register and pay"