Font Size

[seowheel]

My question, does it matter if your selected keywords that appear in your title and meta tags need to be the same font style and size on your pages?

Say your keyword is "search engines", can you use it many different ways e.g Search Engines, SEARCH ENGINES, search engines.

Does it matter if you capitalize the first letter vs lower caps, or all caps?

Do the se's even consider font size or style?

Thanks for anyones help!

[ihelpyou]

Welcome to the forums seowheel! :hi:

Do not worry about how you write the terms in your content. Whatever is good grammar for the sentence is fine. Most engines are non case-sensitive anyway.

The only thing that seems to work is to use a <h> tag when appropriate and putting a keyword phrase or two in it. The font size of the tag does not seem to matter much. Although, h2 seems to work really well.

[Blue]

:hi:

[Ed Champion]

Doug,

In response to your answer about using <h> tags;

1.) Are the <h> tags as effective within a table cell, as not being placed outside of a table?

2.) You mention putting one or two key word in the <h> tag, why not place as many as possible in a keyword rich sentence or two within the tags?

3.) Is there an optimal number of words that can be placed into the <h> tags?

Thanks,

[ihelpyou]

Inside tables is just fine. The problem is you will always have a space right below the words of the h tag, so tables might be a problem.

No amount of words seems to matter but it should look okay to your visitors. I would not go overboard with this though as the h tag is a header tag in realty.

[ihelpyou]

Along with font sizes I should mention this:

Many places have posted that using a font size of one hurts you in rankings. I have no evidence of this whatsoever. They go on to say that the engines regard a font size of one as words that are usually found in a disclaimer on the page or copyright info on the page, so the engines just ignore this font size.

Again, I do not have the evidence to support that. Many sites are ranked with the whole site in a font size of one. I do not recommend the size as it is kind of hard to read, but this seems to make NO difference in ranks.

Thought I would give my 2 cents on the issue.

[Mel]

Hi SEO wheel and welcome to the forums

Some search engines also regard bold, strong and large size type as more important than whatever your regular page font size is, and in the same way tend to give less weight to smaller text.

As regards caps or not, you have two masters here your customers and the search engines. I prefer to write the text as though addressing only the customer and then review it with a critical eye regarding SEO. Others work differently.

I have seen some comments to the effect that most searchers type their search terms without capitals, but I really don't think I would consider this unless I was working in a very competitive category where I had to optimise for a particular engine.

[JuniorHarris]

Doug mentions a problem with spaces when using <H> tags within tables which I have experienced, however I corrected the problem by simply placing the closing </H> tag after the </TD> closing table tag. The solution seems to work fine for both IE (5.5) and Netscape (4.75).

If concerned about the use of in-line font tags with sizes specified, then I suggest using style sheets and specifying the preferences there. This also keeps the tags simple and clean. In addition, tactful use of <B> may also help!~;)

[ihelpyou]

Good JH, I have heard that about the <h> tags somewhere.. you should put that good tip in the "tips" forum and explain it fully!

[JuniorHarris]

done (http://www.ihelpyouservices.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=452).

[Sharon & Roy]

Originally posted by ihelpyou

Many places have posted that using a font size of one hurts you in rankings. I have no evidence of this whatsoever. They go on to say that the engines regard a font size of one as words that are usually found in a disclaimer on the page or copyright info on the page, so the engines just ignore this font size.

Again, I do not have the evidence to support that. Many sites are ranked with the whole site in a font size of one. I do not recommend the size as it is kind of hard to read, but this seems to make NO difference in ranks.

Note: This information is for Google but it may also be applicable for other Engines.

Using a font size of "one" will NOT hurt you in rankings, per se, BUT it also does NOT help give you higher ranking consideration either. We'd have to conclude that using a font size of one neither increases or decreases your ranking consideration.

In other words a page's font size could be looked at in the following manner for those who learn best by studying a chart, as a visual aid.

------

CHART: Font Sizes and their "suggested point value" when factoring their "ranking consideration".

------

Note: The HTML default font size is ... 3 or 12pt or 16px

------

font size=1 gets 1 point
font size=2 gets 2 points
font size=3 gets 3 points
font size=4 gets 4 points
font size=5 gets 5 points
font size=6 gets 6 points
font size=7 gets 7 points

... or ...

font-size:7.5pt gets 1 point
font-size:10pt gets 2 points
font-size:12pt gets 3 points
font-size:13.5pt gets 4 points
font-size:18pt gets 5 points
font-size:24pt gets 6 points
font-size:36pt gets 7 points

... or ...

font-size:10px gets 1 point
font-size:13px gets 2 points
font-size:16px gets 3 points
font-size:18px gets 4 points
font-size:24px gets 5 points
font-size:32px gets 6 points
font-size:48px gets 7 points

------


Now, adding the bold element <b></b> or the strong emphasis element <strong></stong> will increase the ranking consideration even more.

For illustration purposes only, we suggest a factor of 3 (times).

This would then mean that ... <b>Keyword</b> ... would now receive a point value of 9 ... (font size=3 gets 3 points x 3 = 9 points)

Which would then give it 2 more points than this ... <font size=7>Keyword</font> ... (font size=7 gets 7 points)


------

Also using <H1></H1> tags will increase your keyword rank consideration

For illustration purposes only, we suggest the following ...

Since <H1>Keyword</H1> is the same "size" as <b><font size=6>Keyword</font></b>

And <b><font size=6>Keyword</font></b> is equal to = 18 points

We suggest that <H1>Keyword</H1> be worth a factor of 1.5 (times) ... thus equal to = 27 points

The following chart would then be the points given for keywords contained within the following "heading tag" sizes ...

<H1>Keyword</H1> = 27 points
<H2>Keyword</H2> = 22.5 points
<H3>Keyword</H3> = 18 points
<H4>Keyword</H4> = 13.5 points (<H4>Keyword</H4> is the same "size" as <b><font size=3>Keyword</font></b>)
<H5>Keyword</H5> = 9 points
<H6>Keyword</H6> = 4.5 points


------



---

Excerpt From: Google Interview by Fredrick Marckini with Craig Silverstein, Chief Technology Officer of Google - June 2001

HTML Mark-Up

A more recent factor that has been added to the Google algorithm looks at your page's HTML. Factors such as what section the word appears within the page, the size of the font, and the use of bold text affect the ranking of a Web page. Silverstein expressed that words in tiny font are considered less important in their ranking formula. In addition, words in the title and heading sections, and words in large font and in bold are given higher rank consideration.

---

[markymark]

Ugh...don't like this at all. While it would seem to be true that 'tiny text' is considered less important when ranking a web page and heading, title and bold text is seen as more important, this seems to be common sense to me.

After all, if you were writing a presentation and wanted to draw attention to important content - you would use headings, titles and bold text to do it. However, there are many good reasons for using at least some of these elements to attract attention to things that are not strictly what the page is about. Ie: bold, larger than normal text reading 'buy before Sept and get a 10% discount'.

For this reason I suspect that while heading tags and title tags do carry significant weight in ranking algorithims, font size and bold text are a very insignificant element.

Similarly, if you are trying to attract attention away from something in this mythical presentation or put in a footnote, you would use very small text. Again, there are reasons why - on a web page- you may use small fonts for stylistic purposes and not because the text is less important. So I would also suggest that small text is a very insignificant part of any search engine's ranking algorithim.

As for the idea that this font size equals a set amount of points going towards ranking, I think this shows a little naivity in understanding how SEs rank sites. There are no charts or point structures used - I am certain that increasing the font size on my site by 1 or 2 px will have no effect on my ranking.

In fact, I have a page that I will try it on and let you know the result. Some of this page has text 2px smaller than the rest - I will increase it to the same size and report back in 2-3 days, depending on how quickly Inktomi index it. The current ranking for the page is 28; so we shall see.

Mark

[ihelpyou]

Good Mark. Keep us informed as that will be interesting.

[usbnuts]

While I really appreciate your font size theory, however, do you think this is a bit overkill? I believe putting time to other areas may give you a better return on your SEO success.

[Sharon & Roy]

Originally posted by usbnuts

do you think this is a bit overkill?

Hello usbnuts,

No, we don't think it is overkill at all. We think that it is best if we explain each SEO Technique as thoroughly as possible and also provide visual aids for the folks who learn best in this manner. After all, we will be providing detailed step by step instructions rather than the vague and general answers most other books provide their readers.

Our goal is to take someone completely new to SEO that has just a basic knowledge of HTML and turn him or her into an advanced SEO student in the least amount of time possible. That we feel can only be accomplished by providing them with as many "details" and visual illustrations as possible.

We know that all too many folks just jump right in to "designing" their Web Pages AND THEN only as an "afterthought" do they realize that they need to "optimize" their pages as well, if they desire any kind of decent rankings and traffic from the Search Engines, which usually means to redesign and rewrite each page. So if folks are "armed" with such SEO details as the font sizes and the like, they could then PLAN their SEO strategy ahead of time and they would then be able to design AND optimize their pages "simultaneously," rather than making it two separate projects.

Originally posted by usbnuts

I believe putting time to other areas may give you a better return on your SEO success.

Yes, actually we will be covering ALL SEO Techniques and put in just as much time if not more to its research and implementation.

When reading our posts, just keep in mind that we always write with the brand new SEO student in mind. Our posts are always intended to be very Newbie-Friendly.

[markymark]

Sharon and Roy,

I don't think that font size chart was at all helpful, I'm afraid. You seem to be saying that if I use font size 7 for all the text on my page, I will rank higher than if I use font size 3. I don't think this is the case. Furthermore, a secondary implication is that I could leapfrog a site with a higher keyword density and better optimization (ie: keywords in title tag, good keyword proximity) simply by increasing the font size by 2 or 3.

I don't believe this to be true either. Lastly, those values (ie: 2 points for font size two, etc.) seem to be nebulous in the extreme. What did you base this on. I don't think this kind of stuff is helpful to newbies - as it confuses the issue.

[Sharon & Roy]

Originally posted by markymark

As for the idea that this font size equals a set amount of points going towards ranking, I think this shows a little naivity in understanding how SEs rank sites. There are no charts or point structures used

Hello markymark,

Sorry, but we're a bit unclear as to what you are actually saying here.

Are you saying that when Google factors in the size of a font that it doesn't use numbers to do so?

Can you be a bit more detailed in your explanation of how Google would factor in the various font sizes if they don't use numbers, please, thank you.

Originally posted by markymark

I am certain that increasing the font size on my site by 1 or 2 px will have no effect on my ranking.

Yes, markymark, we quite agree with you. Increasing the font size on your site by 1 or 2 px will have no NOTICABLE effect on your rankings, but it could increase your placement just a wee bit if all other things are really close between you and the other Site above you.

Increasing font size, per se, will not have that much of an increase in your ranking consideration, but Heading Tags and bold text will and where the words are placed on the page will too.

The chart and points we suggested are in no way what we are suggesting that Google uses. It is just a visual aid to the brand new SEO student to have a compass by which to strategize. It is also just "ONE SMALL PART" of the "WHOLE" SEO Techniques arsenal. Other SEO Techniques would score many more points than what we suggested for the fonts. For example, we'd probably suggest that the HTML Title be worth 200 points and the domain name be worth 100 points.

We are in no way implying that Google uses these exact same numbers to calculate all the factors that go into their algorithm. We are merely providing them for illustration purposes only, so that the new SEO student will quickly grasp the individual parts of the whole SEO process for Google. That's all.

[Mel]

Hi all:

Re font size:

I am not exactly sure how Google uses font size in rankings but would offer the following ideas:

If they use the same ideas as AltaVista then font sizes are relative i.e. if your normal body text font size is 3 then one size down is a bit less important and one size up a bit more important. The same would then hold true if your normal font size is 6. I also suspcet that this ranking only applies to keywords not all words on a page.

It is certain that they attach a bit more importance to bold and other emphasis tags, but I think not so much as to a header tag for instance.

It is also certain that if you font size is so small as to be unreadable (say 2 pixels) they will definitely lower your ranking or perhaps even drop the page for spamming.

That said I must agree that the exact size of the font on your page has very little to do with your ranking. The use of keywords in header tags will have much more importance to the SEs and also to your readers.

I agree that at this point in your book you might want to concentrate on the more important aspects of Google SEO. I would only consider font size as an seo tactic if I were locked in a battle with six others for top of page rankings and the differences in the rankings were miniscule, so that a 1/100% difference might put you on top.

[markymark]

I think I made it clear the first time - there are no charts or point structures used. If it was a simple as saying that this element is worth this many points, a title tag is worth that many points, a heading tag is worth more than a bold tag - we would all have number one sites all the time.

I tried this approach a while back - spent hours looking at the top 5 sites for certain searches to figure out some kind of simple points based chart. My conclusion: there isn't one. The mathematics is far more complex than you seem to be suggesting - I think it has more in common with Artificial Intelligence than with Algebra.

Quote :
"Are you saying that when Google factors in the size of a font that it doesn't use numbers to do so? " Please don't be deliberately obtuse, there is no need for it.

I have said all I wish to say on this now.

[Sharon & Roy]

Originally posted by markymark

Sharon and Roy,

I don't think that font size chart was at all helpful, I'm afraid.

Hi markymark,

Thanks for your input and we're sorry that it did not help you. Please remember that we post with the Newbie in mind, so someone who has absolutely no SEO knowledge may find the chart quite helpful.

Originally posted by markymark

You seem to be saying that if I use font size 7 for all the text on my page, I will rank higher than if I use font size 3.

No, that is NOT at all what we are saying or implying. We are saying that using a size 7 font over a size 3 font will give you "more points" (a.k.a. higher rank consideration) but that is not to say that the consideration is so much higher that you will increase 100 positions in rank or even 1. We are not making any such statement with that chart at all. You are reading way more into it than you need to.

Originally posted by markymark

Furthermore, a secondary implication is that I could leapfrog a site with a higher keyword density and better optimization (ie: keywords in title tag, good keyword proximity) simply by increasing the font size by 2 or 3

Again, markymark, that is NOT at all what we are saying. Font size "rank consideration" is VERY MINIMAL in the grand scheme of all SEO Techniques.

Originally posted by markymark

Lastly, those values (ie: 2 points for font size two, etc.) seem to be nebulous in the extreme. What did you base this on.

Again, the numbers are merely for illustration purposes to show the relationship and rank consideration for font sizes and for heading tags, bold tags, and strong emphasis tags. They are simple numbers we suggested to show the relationships of various font sizes and styles. That is all.

Originally posted by markymark

I don't think this kind of stuff is helpful to newbies - as it confuses the issue.

It really won't confuse anyone if you don't read more into the chart than it shows, which is just the relationships of font sizes and styles. That's all.

We never said or even implied to say that "any font" has or will ever have a higher "rank consideration" (more points) than say, keyword density, which by the way, we would suggest a point value of 300 for, if it's optimized according to Google's current algorithm.

[Sharon & Roy]

Originally posted by markymark

there are no charts or point structures used.

Hi markymark,

Ahhh, okay, now your ... "no charts or point structures used" ... makes sense to us. We did not understand you at first, but now with this post we do.

Originally posted by markymark

If it was a simple as saying that this element is worth this many points, a title tag is worth that many points, a heading tag is worth more than a bold tag

Oh, but markymark, it is that simple, it is just NOT easy.

And what's NOT "easy" is deciphering the actual "weight" and the actual "expressions" used within Google's algorithm. Those are just a few aspects of what they keep a secret.

We are not attempting to "learn" their secret numbers, weights, and expressions. That is NOT even possible.

What we are doings is taking all of the various SEO Techniques and then weighing them against each other, with the full knowledge that Google changes their algorithms often.

We don't need to be EXACT in our "math" ... We just need to be EXACT enough to give anyone a step by step game plan to start from. The testing and adjusting and the retesting and the readjusting can be minimized for folks if a good "foundation" from which to build upon is firmly adhered to.

And that is our goal, to establish a detailed foundation from which to build upon. Also, just because we include a detailed "math" based foundation for ALL possible SEO Techniques for Google, does not mean that the reader will implement them all or even implement them as we suggest. Many roads can lead to the top spots and we merely want to cover them ALL. That's all, we're saying. We are not saying, there is a right and wrong way. We are simply saying that there are MANY right ways and using lots of details and math just happens to be our "way" of choice.