Shoplifting Links

[JuniorHarris]

<We now call to the podium....>

You know it's somewhat ironic that I am a moderator for the PPC forums. Let the record reflect, I despise PPC along with the deception and fraud which goes along with it. I don't care what any PPC proponent tells you, there is absolutely no way to control fraud and prevent bogus clicks.

The bogus clicks can be from the competition, mischievous script kiddies, an old blind guy who clicks the wrong link, down to those wonderful affiliate programs the PPCs offer to help consume the monies. Was it any accident after LS went PPC, that traffic mysteriously increased? Did sales increase?

Sure some of the more "established" PPC engines may have some fraud protection in place, but I guarantee it is not bullet proof. However, that said there are those who claim to still make a profit despite the overhead of bogus clicks and bid management. As long as you have a good ROI it may work, but be sure to allow for overhead just as the supermarkets provide mark ups to compensate for shoplifting.

When PPC is being recommended or discussed, it's always a good idea to find out at what end of the stock options does the other party sit!~:eyes:

<...quickly steps away from podium>

[ihelpyou]

YES haha.

This should spur on some debate/discussion. :cool:

I completely agree with the podium. Very good speech!

[ihelpyou]

However, that said there are those who claim to still make a profit despite the overhead of bogus clicks and bid management. As long as you have a good ROI it may work, but be sure to allow for overhead just as the supermarkets provide mark ups to compensate for shoplifting.
I think that statement has multiple meanings and people should read it carefully.

What is lost when people talk about their ROI is the fact that there are many other expenses involved in the business. ROI is simply telling you the difference between the 'click price' and the ratio of visitors/clicks to who actually 'bought', or did whatever it is you wish them to do.

What about all the time involved with the PPC thing? What about any tools you use to keep track of everything? What about the person/firm you use to do all of this? What about that salary you are paying the poor soul who is in charge to handle your ppc campaign?

What about, what about, what about, what about? The list is long.

It's hard for me to believe that all of these businesses say they have a good ROI, etc doing PPC, but they always fail to say what exactly is their NET profit from that ppc campaign. That's what I look at. What's in it for me at the very end? That's really the only number I am interested in.

And yes, the fraud runs rampant which only eats into your bottom line.

Can there be fraud with getting a good rank on your keyphrase in Google? I don't think so.

For many, I really think PPC is seen as an easy way out with instant gratification. It's quicker getting to the top because you simply pay to be there. But I have to say that getting to the top in that matter is going to zap any profits you have with your business much quicker as well.

[JuniorHarris]

I think you've focused on a key point. There are many other off-score elements to consider, such as time spent on keyword research, account management, and let's hope some time spent reviewing referrals. I know the program works for some, otherwise respectable people like MMT would not be using them. But I also believe those that are truly successful with the program, spend considerable time researching and monitoring their campaigns, as well as keeping up to date with current industry changes and market trends.

PPC, the poor man's optimizer...it only takes cash to be number one!~;)

[ihelpyou]

Along with that, the business needs to realize all the different types of clicks/people/visitors they will get to their site. I will name a few:


People just surfing for information.
People surfing and simply clicking on all the listings on the first page out of curiosity.
People who just read all the news articles pertaining to PPC and are curious now.
People who are webmasters checking on their competition.
Owners who are checking on their competition, but not maliciously clicking... just checking.
Accidental clicks for whatever reason.
Robots programmed to click on the competition.
Other PPC webmasters maliciously clicking on their client's competitors.
People who are looking for information to buy later.
People who are looking for product/info and are ready to buy now.
People like me who are simply curious about who is paying for a term, and simply wants to see the site. Not any competition at all, just curious about whatever term it may be. These people might do this very periodically and not maliciously. They are just curious about a listing they have not seen before and wish to view the site.


We could go on and on with this list as it is endless. Every site needs to consider all of these types of clicks. Oh sure, the PPC engines will stop many of the types, but many more would/are simply impossible to deal with. That is the big cost of doing business the PPC way.

Now, considering all the above, and then also considering salaries involved, employee time, misc. expenses, tools needed, etc,... this all becomes quite an expensive endeaver and one that dwindles down your all-important number a bunch.... net profit.

An example of what I mean about that last 'type' :

Yesterday, I was doing some searches,etc and did a search and saw a listing for the ChipnDough Cookie company. They are a big cookie maker and I had never been to their site before, so I was curious. I clicked on the listing to view the site. I did not wish to buy any cookies but just wanted to see the site. The listing happened to be a paid Google listing. Nothing malicious at all as I just clicked out of curiousity. It was there, so I clicked. There are MANY out there like me who see a listing and simply click.

[Advisor]

All very good points!

When I first tried out Google AdWords Select, I figured I could use it for branding purposes. Have my ad shown, and not care about the clicks. But of course, you have to get clicks or they shut you down!

So then I learned how to do it better, but found it was silly for me to pay over a buck to try and get SEO biz from people who didn't really know what they were looking for.

Now, I use it to get new subscribers. I have no bids over 5 cents, and have zillions of little phrases that people might type in related to SEO and find me. If they click, it's only 5 cents. It's certainly worth 5 cents per subscriber to me (and even if it adds up to more because they don't all sign up).

So I don't come up under search engine optimization, but that's fine! Those suckers that do are paying through the nose. I'm paying 3 or 4 bucks a week, so it's pocket change.

I recently decided to check out Overture to see if I could set up something similar, but with their minimum of $20 (or is it $25?) per month, it just ain't worth it to me. I love that Google has no minimum spend. Hope they never change that.

Jill

[Black_Knight]

Originally posted by JuniorHarris
PPC, the poor man's optimizer...it only takes cash to be number one!~;)

... but it takes a professional to make it pay to be there.

I agree. I am one of those professionals.

Optimising PPC separates the real professionals from the script kiddies. Give infinite monkeys, infinite chances and before they finish writing the complete works of shakespear, they'll have a #1 unbeatable page optimised for every algorithm in use.

Hell, there's even software that can write you pages to get a #1 rank. We slammed one that combined this with cloaking just recently.

I have always been about ROI. Forget hits, forget PIs, forget referrals, what counts is the bottom line - sales. SEO is (or should be) a tool to increase sales at the lowest price.

What is a #1 position worth, on any kind of engine, if no-one using that term actually buys anything? It's worth nothing.

PPC is not traditional SEO. If your whole seo sales pitch is about position and hits then forget PPC - it beats you. PPC is about marketing. You spend 'x' amount, for 'y' position, and get 'z' sales as a result. Technically, SEO should be like that too, but we all know it generally isn't.

Yes, PPC has overheads - as does everything else. Let me give you a scenario though:

Company A is a small business just getting started. It's a young couple working out of their own home, their garage full of stock, and they have a low budget. They have a good product, but they need to advertise, they need sales, they need results this month, because otherwise they are out of business before they've even begun. They've scraped up $500 for advertising, everything else is invested in the capability to actually deliver their product.

If they don't make back three times their avertising spend, this month, they haven't got enough cash to continue. How many SEO's can deliver on this? I'm out of their price range. I also couldn't possibly promise a minimum three-fold return within the first month. Not after a month remember, within a month.

PPC can do what they need though. It takes good keyword selection, and some very careful strategy, but it can do it. SEO cannot.

I've seen the scenario above time and time again, and I've seen it work. I train small and medium enterprises to do this for themselves, month after month. The training is backed and sponsored (paid for) by the local enterprise centres (government cash), because it works.


Company B is a large enterprise, built on venture capital, invested in the smart experienced businessmen involved. They know more about traditional marketing and advertising than most of the SEOs out there have even imagined.

The company has a large advertising budget, approved by the board. They advertise in magazines, perhaps also on Radio and Television. They have posters around the city, attend trade shows, etc, etc.

When evaluating any advertising or marketing spend, they want to know circulation, they want to know how many people will see the ad, and they want that guaranteed. They already feel they know the response rate and ROI. What they want from you is just publicity.

Now, whether you think they are daft, stuck in the past, blind to the potential of the internet or not, well, that doesn't matter. You want their cash. Can you deliver the guarantees on placement. Not money-back guarantees, they aren't that phased about the cash. What they are concerned with is whether you can actually deliver a stated service or not.

If they hire you to get them a top-3 position on Yahoo, then you'd better deliver it. They don't care if you'll give them the cash back - you wasted a month or more of their time. The time to them costs a lot more than you do.

Again, PPC fills their needs a lot more easily. When I bid for contracts with the larger companies, I always include PPC as a product in the offering because they are assured of the Titles they approve, the descriptions they approve, etc. They can fill out their monthly reports and be happy.

Continued...

[Black_Knight]

... Continuation from above.

Originally posted by ihelpyou
Along with that, the business needs to realize all the different types of clicks/people/visitors they will get to their site. I will name a few:


People just surfing for information.
People surfing and simply clicking on all the listings on the first page out of curiosity.
People who just read all the news articles pertaining to PPC and are curious now.
People who are webmasters checking on their competition.
Owners who are checking on their competition, but not maliciously clicking... just checking.
Accidental clicks for whatever reason.
Robots programmed to click on the competition.
Other PPC webmasters maliciously clicking on their client's competitors.
People who are looking for information to buy later.
People who are looking for product/info and are ready to buy now.
People like me who are simply curious about who is paying for a term, and simply wants to see the site. Not any competition at all, just curious about whatever term it may be. These people might do this very periodically and not maliciously. They are just curious about a listing they have not seen before and wish to view the site.


Absolutely Doug. This is about keyword selection. With PPC you need to use the search terms that are sales oriented. The kind of searches that are only used by people looking to buy.

PPC isn't about volume, it is about ROI. With traditional SEO you're only paying for bandwidth so you try to target as wide a group as possible. With PPC, you pay for each visitor, so you get as specific as possible, looking for the highest ROI.

However, some larger companies are simply treating it as advertising. How much would it cost Amazon.com per month to have their banner appear on Yahoo results for all searches relating to books?

Well guess what... It is cheaper to do via pay-per-click. Everyone sees the listing, but you don't pay CPM, you pay only per click. You get a full-text link with any branding message you like in the description, and it costs so much less than the banners that the company are laughing all the way to the bank.

So a few people click out of curiosity? Woohoo, now they've added a few page impressions to the advertising effect they were paying for.

Just because it is called Pay-per-Click, don't for a moment think that every company in there is aiming for clicks. Some are taking advantage of the cheapest form of advertising yet seen on the internet.

Originally posted by JuniorHarris:
Let the record reflect, I despise PPC along with the deception and fraud which goes along with it. I don't care what any PPC proponent tells you, there is absolutely no way to control fraud and prevent bogus clicks.

You're a lucky man, JH, if you've never had some kiddie code-jack your page for its high rank in Altavista. I have had this happen to several clients.

Malicious use of the fact you rank anywhere doesn't begin and end with PPC. At least no f@£*ing affiliate scamster has ever code-jacked a page because it ranked #1 on Overture. :D

The point is that you'll always pay for bandwidth (if you don't think bandwidth costs, try dealing with some larger companies with their own leased lines and servers). All clicks have a cost.

The cost of site development, the cost of bandwidth, the myriad costs and overheads of business all depend on attracting paying customers. Any idle surfer is either a potential customer, or a waste of bandwidth.

With PPC however, you get to choose exactly which search terms you come up for, where you rank, and what your description says to help filter out the idlers.

Think it over.


Referenced material:
Since I mentioned the appeal (and backing) for PPC for small businesses, it's only fair I provide the evidence too.
Commercial Search Engine Placement Training Course (http://training.freshegg.com/index.html)

[ihelpyou]

PPC isn't about volume, it is about ROI. With traditional SEO you're only paying for bandwidth so you try to target as wide a group as possible. With PPC, you pay for each visitor, so you get as specific as possible, looking for the highest ROI.
Very, very true. You pay for each visitor and that is the biggest and major drawback to PPC. Of course, if you do let someone like Black_Knight do it all for you, your ROI will be higher and all, but you still have to pay for all of that as well. Again, that goes directly to your bottom line, which is known as Net Profit.

[JuniorHarris]

lol!~ By the sounds of it, you may be more of the exception then the rule!~;) The PPC objectives and goals you outlined are well defined!~ Have you done this before (http://training.freshegg.com/index.html)? ;) And your point is well noted, concerning the number one position being a target regardless of the engine it sits atop!

I won't be launching any PPC campaigns anytime soon, but your post has provided a great deal of insight for those who wish to tread those waters!~ :read:

[ihelpyou]

A little off topic but very relevant.

This new autobid thang Overture threw out there is really something else and I am very surprised more people are not outraged by a program that is geared to only make Overture more money. If I have it wrong, please correct me by posting how this new thang is a benefit to the advertiser. Thanks.

[Black_Knight]

I've always recommended against automated bidding. Human judgement is always better in such cases.

Two pieces of advice relating to the latest Auto-bid scams

First, I strongly recommend that you disable Auto-bidding, and stick to fixed bids.

Second, if you can't bear to be without Auto-bid, you must learn to fight back. Check in regularly and watch for competitors who's max bid is just 1 cent/penny beneath your own - especially where the bid beneath his is considerably lower. Turn the tables by dropping your maximum bid by 2 cents/pennies and you should then be forcing him to pay the maximum, while your own actual bid can now drop to just 1 cent/peny above the next highest maximum bid. He'll soon learn the hard way that what is sauce for the goose, can just as easily mean his wn goose gets cooked. :D

[Kal]

Originally posted by ihelpyou
A little off topic but very relevant.

This new autobid thang Overture threw out there is really something else and I am very surprised more people are not outraged by a program that is geared to only make Overture more money. If I have it wrong, please correct me by posting how this new thang is a benefit to the advertiser. Thanks.
Doug - I think you have it right. And others think so as well. I suggest you pay close attention to any PPC sessions in San Jose if you attend because I have a feeling that this topic will be well discussed. ;)

[Matt B]

B K said;
I have always been about ROI. Forget hits, forget PIs, forget referrals, what counts is the bottom line - sales. SEO is (or should be) a tool to increase sales at the lowest price. Very nice, B K, and eloquent as always. Your business sounds very similar to ours. ROI for our clients is always calculated with our costs, website cost, hosting, etc., all figured into the equation. (Bottom line = money)

For larger clients, we do implement PPC programs, but we ROI the PPC and the "traditional" approach separately. Many are surprised to find that the "traditional" SEO approach can yield larger and longer lasting dividends than a PPC buy.

Junior - nice rant, well thought out and much appreciated.

[JuniorHarris]

Thanks for letting me rant!~;)

Looks like we got some great insight from both sides of the fence!~:eyes: