New Overture Feature a Scam?

[Kal]

Just received this announcement from Overture:

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Overture developed the Match Driver tool* to help capture more leads from misspellings, singular/plural combinations, and other variations that might be used to search for their product or service. Now, a new enhancement to Match Driver is going to drive even more prospects to your site.

The new expanded matching enhancement allows you to receive traffic from more complex user search queries. This feature looks at your term, title and description to match your listings to searches where we believe the intent of the user is to find your product or service even though they have not typed in the exact keywords you've bid on.
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To me, this smells like a way for them to solicit more clicks (read as more money) from you without your direct permission! Am I wrong? :confused:

[ihelpyou]

Oh my. That's exactly what they are doing. Boy, I'm sure damn happy I have not had to resort to buying PPC. I also hope I don't anytime soon.

Hey all you ppc junkies, watch your funds dwindle VERY quick-like now.

[ihelpyou]

A big question?

How the heck can anyone gauge their ROI with this new business model? This is a real big thing people.

[Blue]

This feature looks at your term, title and description to match your listings to searches where we believe the intent of the user is to find your product or service even though they have not typed in the exact keywords you've bid on. Sounds like a modified version of SCUMWARE to me...

[ihelpyou]

LOL

It also can be summed it in one word:

GREED

It's amazing how these companies "spin" things when we all know what the true scoop is.

[ihelpyou]

They have stooped to exactly how Looksmart does it. Remember we all talked about the new LS ppc and how you could get a better ROI going with Overture? Not anymore. They are the same.

If you think you are bidding on a term at .15 per click. Think again! That bid price and what you will actually pay is going sky high now. Just like Looksmart.

Example:

Your title is:

Jan's Web Hosting

Your description is:

Quality web hosting at affordable prices. Free email is included.

That's just an example. NOW;

you bid on the term:

"web hosting"

You will NOW get visitors who actually search on terms like:

"free web hosting"

Why?

Because your have the word "free" in your description.

That is a crude example but it's the truth now. Your ROI will go way down with this kind of model.

[Kal]

Yes, I am pretty concerned about this. I've transferred most of my PPC campaigns to Google Adwords because I've been unhappy with Overture in the past, but this is beyond reproach. I sense a backlash (ala LookSmart) coming on. Their email and FAQ's (http://www.overture.com/d/USm/about/advertisers/dtcfaq_md.jhtml) are full of spin - perhaps they borrowed LS's PR team for the job? :p

[chinook]

Agreed, it is just a way to empty those clicks faster. We gave them a bunch of money in the spring and now it is just a waiting game for it to be used up. I never did find on their site where to apply for a refund.

[ihelpyou]

Thanks Kal for forwarding me the email from Overture. I also found the very first sentence interesting. Talk about spin? LOL
We continually hear from our advertisers that they would like to receive more qualified leads.
I am sure that's not what the 'advertisers' were talking about. Maybe more partners? lol


And this statement:
*Note: The Match Driver tool is applicable to all advertisers, it is not an application that the advertiser needs to turn on and off.
Oh, gee thanx.

[searchenginemarketing4u]

So what happens when your keyphrase is "web hosting" and Overture displays you for "free web hosting"?

Are you positioned at the amount you bid for "web hosting"?

The new system makes no sense. Overture are always going on about relevancy. How is this making searches more relevant? They are just out to make more money - greedy b*st*rds!

[kykex]

It's probably a desperate attempt to overcome the increase in popularity of Findwhat and Google Adwords... And as usual when you do things too fast, you do them wrong... And THIS is VERY WRONG! >:(

[ihelpyou]

So what happens when your keyphrase is "web hosting" and Overture displays you for "free web hosting"?

Are you positioned at the amount you bid for "web hosting"?
Yes.

That is the whole point in this business model change.

[bigDugan]

The real crime is that they setup with kws that you are already coming up #1 for FREE, but now you have to PAY for it!!

This is what one of their people did back when. Set me up with 100 kws. Half of them I was already coming up #1 for FREE, except when they got through reaming me, I was paying .01 for each one. :mad:

My butt is still sore from that one! :barf+:

[dvduval]

It may be a scam, but I am interpreting it differently:

If you bid on these phrases:

web hosting
free domain names

then Overture can display a link for combinations of words that are in the search terms you are bidding on. In this case, "free web hosting" would be one such combination.

I don't believe they are displaying any links that DO NOT contain terms from the link text of phrases you have bid on. In this case, "cheap web hosting" would not display.

Look forward to your opinions, however.
Disagreement welcomed!

[bigDugan]

IMO - Overture is THE SCAM. But hell-- who am I to say. I only lost several thousand dollars to these scum buckets w/o ever seeing a return. Buyer Beware.

[dvduval]

I do think that they could have advertised their new product like this:

"We have found yet another way to make more money off of you and make it even more difficult to trace purposeful clicks by competitors and automated programs. You may ask, 'How do I activate this and start having you take advantage of me?'. If you are already signed up, there is no need to do anything because we already have your money and we look forward to spending it. We really appreciate your business and will be spending our new profits on a trip to Hawaii. As a matter of fact, we are diligently clicking on everyone's account to prove that our new system actually brings more traffic (of our staff to Hawaii). Finally, we would like to extend our deepest thanks to LookSmart for showing us that it's OK to change the deal as long as you already have the customer's money. Look forward to even more strategic ROI (Rewards on Investers) when we get back from Hawaii."

Am I the only one that is noticing a contorted logic where they actually believe that they are doing you a service. It's reminiscent of the same contorted logic that LookSmart was using before everyone left them.

[Mertu]

Overture should look into buying LookSmart... then they could form a new company with a name more appropriate to the treatment of their customers,
OverLook


Sean

[bigDugan]

LOL

[nzbase]

Unbelievable ... I have only just found out about this ... what's next?

IMO ...

With full disclosure (see point below) and respectable matching algorithims, this tool could send more leads at the value you have bid for but two questions must be asked (as some have already)

Will these leads actually be as qualified as what you've decided is your optimum CPC price for sustainable ROI on your specific keywords? and

Can Overture unilaterally change the agreement you have with them regarding bidding for specific terms?

In addition to this Overture have actually admitted they will not fully disclose what search terms your traffic has actually come from -'Traffic from the expanded matching feature will be shown in your reports under the terms you've bid on'

Another question would have to be what happens to unsuspecting new users of Overture's system who dont read the fine print? Full disclosure on the agreement would mean Overture shouldn't be able to say advertisers are bidding on 'specific' keywords...

Rant, Rant, Rant ...

[ihelpyou]

Very good points!

It all smells like the same thing Looksmart did. Why is it that .com's out there think they can spin a few things and put the screws to their customers, and then somehow get away with it? I don't understand.

[Matt B]

I have moved all my PPC to Busines.com, after some testing I am getting less click thru's, but the same amount of conversions! Hmmm, less expense, same sales . . . . Can't beat that! :D

I don't think I will ever go back to Overture, especially after this fiasco.

[Advisor]

Hmm...it certainly does sound strange.

But let's step back and think about this for a moment.

Overture has made great strides over the past year to ensure that the results they're providing are relevant to the search queries. Would they really want to mess that up?

I would imagine that they're being extremely careful with relevancy. For one thing, their partners are demanding that. If those top "sponsored" results aren't going to be relevant, there will be big problems.

I think we may need to sit back and see how it plays out. If it still is providing relevant results, then the advertisers probably won't be complaining about the extra clicks -- they'll be relevant!

Jill

[Kal]

Originally posted by Advisor
If it still is providing relevant results, then the advertisers probably won't be complaining about the extra clicks -- they'll be relevant!
But Jill, don't you think that it is the advertiser's right to determine the relevancy of keywords in relation to their site IF they are purchasing them? To have no control over the final search terms you are bidding on is bad enough, but how will you be able to determine the relevancy of those terms you've been forced to buy if they don't even reveal them? :eek:

[ihelpyou]

Yes Kal, good point. They stated the advertiser will not see any reports based on terms they did Not pay for. How does one determine their ROI or anything at all? How does one know what they heck they are paying for if no one tells them or shows them in a report?

And why is it that Overture is Not going to report on those phrases the advertiser did not bid on but will have to pay for and also has referrals from?

It all does not sound or seem very right to me.

It seems to me that an advertiser who may be submitting 1000 bids for 1000 different keyword phrases should only be receiving clicks from those 1000 phrases. Now he/she could receive clicks from 2000 phrases. If the client wanted to receive clicks from those extra 1000 phrases, would he not have bid on those extra phrases as well?

This only serves to dwindle down your funds much quicker. I see no real benefit to this model.

[dvduval]

Most marketers know their market. If I wanted to bid on misspellings or different keyword combos, I would have done so already.

There is a way not to use the tool. Stop using Overture.

[bigDugan]

>the advertiser's right to determine the relevancy
No doubt you'd want to be able to choose which kws, but I also think overture should have veto power, to ensure relevancy

>the advertiser will not see any reports
I don't know if they've changed things, but this was ALWAYS a problem with them. I called them after noticing heavy volume of suspicious clicks on my kws, but was told HE couldn't do anything until tomorrow, because it was happening at the moment-- and he had to wait until tomorrow's reports!! :eek: :eek:

[Advisor]

Sure does sound strange. Do they allow any negative keyword lists like Google does? (Words that you definitely DON'T want to come up for.)

J

[kykex]

I don't think all that is a bad thing as long as it is an option. I wouldn't have had any problems if I could say "no thanks I prefer to keep my ads the way they are".

[searchenginemarketing4u]

It's not optional though!

[ihelpyou]

Right. Not optional at all. It is forced upon you whether you like it or not.

[Matt B]

Right. Not optional at all.

That is very bad. Customers should have the right to participate or not. A carefully selected search term can be misleading under certain circumstances. What if any variation of a term is not relevant. I realize that I have no immediate examples, and this is a hypothetical question.

On the other hand, look at saavy's situation with ODP, she only does submission. What if Overture deemed to place her under promotion, optimization, etc.?

Sorry saavy, you are the only example that came to mind.;)

[dvduval]

I've been pretty much bidding the minumum $25 per month for the last two months. Before that I was spending about $200 per month. Also over the last two months I've been working on page titles and links. I'm happy to say that business is better than when I was spending $200 per month with Overture.

As soon as you get dependant on any one service, you're going to have a problem. The model for success with search engines is constantly changing. The saying, "here today, gone tomorrow", is so true with search engines, PPCs and PFPs.

I don't think Overture had a very good contingency plan for losing a big partner like AOL. I also think that Yahoo or MSN could change their model to exclude Overture and totally change the playing field. Anybody know when the MSN and Yahoo contracts run out? I think Yahoo is like 2 years, but I doubt MSN is that long.

[Matt B]

True David,

The only reason (in my mind) that Overture was a player is because they tied up Yahoo. Without the Yahoo listings they are just another PPC engine.

[Advisor]

I believe Yahoo just recently signed up with Overture for another 3 years or so.

Isn't it funny what greed will do to companies? Overture was making money hand over fist, but yet they want more. It's fun to watch companies self-destruct through their own greed.

It's one thing where a company like LookSmart that wasn't making any money tries to finally make some, but when one who IS making money but wants more does things like this...well...as you guys have already said, it sure looks like greed.

J

[nzbase]

Also over the last two months I've been working on page titles and links.
I think this is a good point when put against the listing of keywords which you have choosen to go with your current campaign. When dealing with a PPC there are usually so many other listings in the searchers field of view that work on the titles and descriptions plays a key role in bringing in the leads. With this additional system there is no way to directly target what the searcher is looking for because your not sure yourself!

I think the majority of these problems would be fixed if the system was 1) reported and 2) optional.

Anyway, the annoucement is one thing - there's no way to prove/disprove that Overture haven't already been doing this as general policy from the start!

[Kal]

Originally posted by Advisor
Sure does sound strange. Do they allow any negative keyword lists like Google does? (Words that you definitely DON'T want to come up for.) Not that I know of.

Originally posted by nzbase
there's no way to prove/disprove that Overture haven't already been doing this as general policy from the start! Now there's a scary thought. But it sure would explain all those recent click rate disrepancies wouldn't it? :(

[ihelpyou]

Fixed your sig link nzbase. :)

Wow. It's very possible you all have paid for terms you did not bid on for awhile now. Very true, no way to know for sure.

Also true that you still will not know what terms you are being clicked for. No way to target. No way to track your ROI correctly.

hmm. What was the benefit of this new model again?

[Kal]

I think the FTC would have a field day with this - talk about lack of disclosure! :mad:

[nzbase]

Cheers Doug :D

[markymark]

Actually, I was under the impression that they had been doing this for years or, at the very least, had tried it before and scrapped it. I remember the term 'match driver' in connection with Goto (as was) and some very long threads over at SEF about this very issue maybe 18 months or so ago.

I'm sure someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

[ihelpyou]

Yep. And I think there was quite a public out-cry about the low ROI's and not being able to track keyphrases bid on, etc, etc. Sounds familiar as to what will happen again, me thinks. I guess they did not learn the first time. If at first ya don't succeed with greed, try, try again with greed. :)

[lurkerlady]

Originally posted by SEO Guy


That is very bad. Customers should have the right to participate or not. A carefully selected search term can be misleading under certain circumstances. What if any variation of a term is not relevant. I realize that I have no immediate examples, and this is a hypothetical question.

On the other hand, look at saavy's situation with ODP, she only does submission. What if Overture deemed to place her under promotion, optimization, etc.?

Sorry saavy, you are the only example that came to mind.;)

If she only does submission, why does her title bar say optmization (also the first item in drop down menu?). Perhaps this confuses overture?

just a thought.

[Matt B]

If she only does submission, why does her title bar say optmization (also the first item in drop down menu?). Perhaps this confuses overture?
1. Overture does not spider sites like a search engine, it is a paid directory.

2. This discussion is about paying for one set of keywords and being listed under others.

3. I used saavy as an example because of a situation she had with DMOZ.

4. I don't have a problem with people listing additional services on their website. Maybe she farms optimization out, I don't know. We farm some outside services, but we tell clients that it is part of our service, even if it isn't done in-house.

5. Saavy is up front about who she is and what she does and doesn't have a hidden agenda, so I will give her the benefit of the doubt.

[ihelpyou]

Yes. The 'paying' is the key word here. One should get what they pay for. NOT what Overture thinks you want.

It's all BS. It's all about the dollar. Overture will go down within one year.

Yes Lurker, let's keep things on the topic of the thread.

If you offered 'paid' optimization, and paid for the term:

search engine optimization

but were getting clicks for and paying for those clicks of:

free search engine optimization

Would you not be a little miffed?

[Web Diversity]

I might be the only person who takes this view, but hopefully I can put across an objective view and an indication as to why this might be of some benefit to advertisers.

Putting the ads we run ourselves to one side (there more for R & D than ROI), when we run campaigns on PPC for clients they demand of us the best return on their ad spend.

To cover all of the variations can be quite time consuming, regardless of the PPC you use.

Let's look at Espotting :

you have to bid on plurals seperately, so two ads for the same thing. I'd say the intent of the searcher was the same whether they type "buy domain name" or "buy domain names", but typically the plural will be searched for 4 times as much as the singular.

Let's look at Google :

You can have 3 different varieties of the same keyword yielding different results, so
1. buy domain name
2. "buy domain name"
3. [buy domain name]
will yield different costs and different results, add in the plural and you now need 6 variations.

The issue of Overture not reporting on the search terms is easy to overcome. We use a tracking tool which not only tells us the syndicated partner which was used to instigate the search (Yahoo, MSN, AJ etc..) but we get the IP address and the search term used.

I welcome this new feature, it will make our ability to deliver quality results to clients easier, although it may throw up a whole new wave of "experts" in PPC.

Time will tell whether the feature works or not. I can't imagine that they intend to throw any old keyword into the pot, the intent of the client will be the driver, and as long as you have a well written title and description, your intent will be easy to interpret.

I'll go and stand in the "billy no mates" corner.

[dvduval]

What you are giving away is the ability to decide where your money is being spent. Overture is saying, "give us the money, and we will make it work for you." But they are not telling you:
1. Exactly how they are doing it...rather they are saying they will also count variations on your keywords.
2. You won't know which variations ended up being used.
Result: Your ability to audit the person spending your money just got more difficult. Overture can now worry even less about whether you are getting clicks from qualified leads.

[Web Diversity]

Your giving away nothing, if this doesn't work for you then you stop using the service. Some will pull their account and just migrate to Google Adwords Select.

We use Google a lot but in some respects the novice advertiser will spend far more on Google due to their inability to control the keywords more through ignorance than deception.

The rules of PPC will still apply, if you cease to make a return on your spend then you pull the plug on the ad. Moving from Overture may well be what people end up doing but until I see the impact in bottom line results I'm going to try not to be too judgemental.

My reservation about this is that it's going to make it easy for companies to get bids for the niche words that we are picking up in isolation and paying peanuts for and drive the cost of the niche phrases up and in so doing eliminate the niche phrase altogether.

[grumpy]

Hi Folks:

I am new to the message board. :hi:

I have just signed up for an Overture account and I am now wondering if I made a mistake.

Trying to make sensible decisions in this industry is next to impossible. Glad I found this message board though with people who are willing to share what they have learned.

[ihelpyou]

Welcome to the forums grumpy! :hi:

You are in a tough market. I am sure the gambling terms are high dollar on Overture. It's tough to optimize for that market as well.

Good luck to you!

[grumpy]

Thanks for the welcome!

You're right, it is tough. Some of the search terms I am looking at are around $7 per click if you want to get in the top 3. Obviously, the casinos are driving up the prices.

Previously, I was doing fairly well on Google alone but I have recently dropped position on nearly every search term I am interested in.

[nzbase]

Originally posted by grumpy
Obviously, the casinos are driving up the prices.
That's true but as long as you dont try and compete with them and follow a game of numbers (ie bulk terms with less CTR's and a lower bid price) you may be able to drive some targeted traffic.

As an update on the Match Driver issue, you can use the Search Term Suggestion Tool as a proxy for finding out what is matching to different terms. Surprisingly I haven't found too many problems with what's being matched to the terms actually bid for.

Oh and welcome to the forums too :p

[nmjudy]

I created a post about a month ago in regard to Overture's match driver glitch - a concern that charges were being matched to multiple "primary keywords". For instance, someone searches on "free ecards" - your site gets 1 visitor, however the Overture software has "matched" that keyword up with free ecards for 5 cents and perhaps free e-cards for 5 cents (not all duplicate-just some). Your site gets charged for 2 visitors when you only got one.

Why I think this:
I had a new site that was only getting a few visitors a day. I set up an Overture account in August for various keyword phrases having to do with free greeting cards. Traffic (as seen through site stats) pretty much agreed with click charges. It was a little bit tricky to monitor because click charge reports are a day behind. But overture was my only traffic - so I only had to reconcile that.

Match driver kicked in around Labor Day weekend and I could no longer remotely match total clicks with site traffic. Total click charges were 30% higher than actual traffic received. Ie....overture was billing me for 150 referrals but my site statistics were saying that I had a total of 105 visitors????

After contacting Overture, they had a couple of possible explanations...none of which I bought - so I setup Google Adwords instead. I have been able to reconcile almost right down to the last visitor with what I'm being charged for clicks and the traffic I'm getting.

The reason I decided to post this here

I just used the search term tool at Overture. Look up "web design" without quotes. The search term tool tells you that there were 224,911 searches for web design. A few entries below that you will see "web design" listed again with 10,081 searches. Kinda looks like a glitch in their match driver to me.

[ihelpyou]

Good info. Goes to show Overture only looks after their pockets and have really skewed the advertiser tracking so you cannot clearly tell what is going on. This also shows clearly that the Overture tool is very skewed and always has been. Use Wordtracker instead. All changes that happen with O always result in blurrier eyes for the advertiser.

[nmjudy]

Last March I was doing some search engine optimization for a furniture company. The Overture search tool was showing 49,000 searches for the term "maple dining table". Wordtracker was showing 50. When I called Overture to ask if their count could be inflated - their response was absolutely not and assured me of their accuracy. Because it was a nickel bid, I decided to bid (#1 position) on the keyword and see how many visitors it brought us. We got about 60 for that month (guess the Wordtracker counts were much more accurate). Because of this experience, I take Overture's answers to my questions at face value and try to validate results. I found it almost amusing about the article that came out recently in regard to Overture Counts - 6 months after my discovery.

I don't think Overture is doing this on purpose. BUT I do know that they will NEVER admit to any glitches they may have. I'm sure I'll be reading about their glitch in the match driver several months down the road. Unfortunately, their glitch has cost me money for traffic I never received...

[ihelpyou]

Oh no, I am sure that count was accurate. What people do not seem to realize is that MANY webmasters like you and I use automated ranking position programs that query Overture DAILY on every search term under the sun. Those queries are figured in the counts that you get from the Overture tool.

This is precisely why their tool is NOT right and will NEVER be right.

On the other hand, NO auto programs can possibly query wordtracker as they don't have a site that can be searched like Overture does. One of the so-called search engines that is in the program of WPG is Overture. That is a big reason for the outragious figures you get when using the Overture tool. Not only do they count real visitor searches, but also count spiderBot searches as well.

[clasione]

Ok so what do you guys think of this....... The match driver tool returns listing on my keyword "chat" - "chats" (plural) will also return the same listings........


But......... Quit Smokings or Stops Smoking

will not work (plural) for "quit smoking" or "stop smoking" Bastards! what the heck ???




Long Island Exchange (http://longislandexchange.com )

[ihelpyou]

Welcome to the forums clasione! :hi:

It's just another shortcoming of Overture among many. The fact that their partners consistantly want more of the 'pie' is why they had to raise their minimum once again. Either that, or their overhead costs get higher and so they need a higher bid price to offset the % the partners are getting and give them more monies. A combination of the two.

People need to realize that PPC's do what they do for the bucks only. If you notice, most all the changes made now are geared towards profits and really don't have the advertisers in mind. Especially the small business.... it's being led out the door slowly but surely.

I still content that the PPC craze will start the downward slope thing in another year or so. One year ago I gave it two years. That's down to one year now. We shall see.

[clasione]

I sent them an email asking why "chats" returned results for "chat" asking if that was normal.......

they returned the email within an hour, praising the match tool and such - saying that "yes" this is normal - it returns plurals and misspellings and such...

Then I sent them an email asking why "quits" and "stops" "stoping" etc etc. is NOT returning resiults for "stop smoking" - and they still havent responded - that was yesturday...



Great Forum,s by the way
:hi:

[Daminc]

For interest:

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Many people don't know the legal definition of a contract, or what is required for an agreement to become a contract.

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[list=a]
Offer and acceptance
Consideration
An intention to create legal relationships
Capacity
Consent
Legality
[/list=a]

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Obviously, having only looked at one element of a valid contract, it starts to become a complex issue. Small businesses are strongly recommended that they seek legal advice before entering into a contract with any other party. Getting your lawyer to advise you on appropriate terms and conditions for sales contracts, memorandums of agreements, or any other contractual documents drawn up is critical. Often small businesses believe that getting a lawyer to examine their contracts is an expensive and a waste of time. This is not the case. Most small business will at some stage end up in some form of contractual dispute. Whether this be with a staff member, supplier or with a client, or even with a competitor. Therefore, it is important that you protect yourself by getting adequate legal advice. Many small businesses work on the basis that if everything is running smoothly, then don't waste money on a lawyer by examining the existing documentation or the way you do business. This is not the case. There is every possibility that things can and will go wrong. When it does go wrong it can be a very expensive exercise, therefore take care and prepare by getting your lawyer to examine what it is that you do and how you do it, to ensure that you are protected. If you are nervous about spending money, ask your lawyer in advance how much everything will cost and get a quote from them.




It seems to be there maybe some legal comeback if they are changing the orginal agreement without the consent of the buyer