designing titles, description, keyword metas

[ifish]

I don't know if this is science or opinion, but what do people think about the number of words in the title, keywords and descriptions? I have heard and seen things all over the board. I am under the impression that proportion of keywords to whole is more important than total number. Does anyone have opinions about whether there is a magic number of words that should not be exceeded for any of the above, or is it all about proportion?

[ihelpyou]

It's all opinion. Mine is 'shorter is better' with your most important at the start of each tag. Title being the most important part besides the actual content on the page.

You should not worry about the length of any of them as 'shorter is better' for any page.

[Advisor]

I moved this thread to the appropriate forum as it wasn't about Google.

I don't look at number of keywords in any of the tags. Just do what seems appropriate for each page, based on the keyword phrases you're tareting and the content you've written for them.

Don't try and do too many, but also you don't just need to do one keyword.

There's no science to it, and it's really a personal preference.

Jill

[bigDugan]

I agree with Doug, and follow the KISS principle:

Keep It Simple Simon

:cool:

[kneelsit]

Hi BigD,

I always thought the KISS acronym stood for "Keep It Simple Stupid" - but then again maybe you were just being polite :D

[1Lit.com]

Sorry to throw a spanner in the works, but I disagree. Longer is better. The longer your title and the more keywords you can pack in, the more the chance you'll be found.

Say I have a title tage with 12 words ("Our store sells new and classic Region Two DVDs and PAL videos at reduced prices") and somebody has a site title with 2 words ("DVD store"). If someone searches for new region two dvds or numerous other search permutations, I'll have a chance of being found, with the relevant keywords made BOLD by Google, while my competitor won't.

[bigDugan]

>>maybe you were just being polite<<
Bingo!

>>The longer your title and the more keywords you can pack in, the more the chance you'll be found<<
This is a common myth. All you are doing is diluting your kw density. You might have a better chance of being found for ALL the words, but how far down the SERPs?

Using your kws example (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=new+region+two+dvds+&btnG=Google+Search), I find that the #1 listing's title is: Amazon.co.uk: DVD, #2 listing's title is: OnTheWeb.com: dvds. And neither has 'new', 'region', or 'two' in the title. And the same goes for #3 - #10. (I didnt go beyond the first page).

[bigDugan]

I think you run the risk of being penalized with an excessive title. Not to mention most SEs will truncate your excessive title. Or how about this thought: What do you think the user thinks of your excessive title? Especially when they try to bookmark your site? I think in the future you see even heavier penalties levied against such practice.

[1Lit.com]

Interesting my friend :) But don't you think Amazon would be at the top no matter what title tags they employ because of their amazing page ranking?

If page rank is equal, don't you think a longer title tag is more helpful?

I'm not talking about something thirty words long, just about ten words. Helpful to user as well as more words for Google to 'grab'. I think it's such a waste that so many sites just have two word titles.

Or is the kw density so much stronger with two or three words that it is ultimately negative to use ten words? What do you s e experts say?

[ihelpyou]

One of the experts already spoke, and spoke real well. BigD runs many a successful web site.

He is absolutely correct.

You are right, longer Does delute the value of your keyphrases. Having a two word phrase only in the title gives that page extra strength to rank on that phrase.

[bigDugan]

>>don't you think Amazon would be at the top no matter what title tags<<

LOL Funny, that's exactly what I was thinking.

I think there is a definite correlation between kws density and the weights assigned to the kws. Lets say the SE has 10 weighted points to assign to your kws. If you only use 2 kws, that's 5pts for each kw. If you use 10 kws, then that's only 1pt for each. So if I search on 5 of those kws, the first listing will have 2 matches with 10pts, while the 2nd listing has 5 matches, it's only 5pts. So the page with 10pts will be listed higher. Just my thoughts. :thebomb:

[bigDugan]

>>One of the experts already spoke, and spoke real well. BigD runs many a successful web site<<

Yikes! Has my cover been blown? 8)

[Advisor]

For what it's worth, I often use long Title tags, and I have no problem getting rankings ;)

I make them whatever length they need to be. If they need to be short, they should be short, if long, then long.

I make sure to get the 2 or 3 keyword phrases I target on the page into the Title tag, which usually leans toward the long side.

Feel free to check out one the top rankings for Search Engine Optimization at Google where you'll see my long Titles!

Jill

[ihelpyou]

Yeah, I know. I did that once and got burnt doing it big time. It's funny how that loooooooong thing works for you but not others. ;)

[bigDugan]

Hmm...

I seemed to only see 10 words in your title. That doesnt seem to excessive to me!
:confused:

[bigDugan]

The problem I have, is that it's a TITLE tag (http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/TITLE.html). Not a description tag! It should be used for titles. Like titles you'd see on a book. Can you imagine if they started using the same types of titles for books? Egads!~:eek: It would take me 5 minutes just to read the cover!The title should ideally be less than 64 characters in lengthI long for the day when SEs crack down on title tag abuse. :cool:

[ihelpyou]

Yes. That's why most directories like short and sweet titles.

[Advisor]

I seemed to only see 10 words in your title. That doesnt seem to excessive to me! Who said anything about excessive! Excessive means it is longer than it needs to be. My titles are perfect, just right...not excessive!

One of my happiest clients has 13 words in theirs. That's probably the longest I've got and wouldn't necessarily recommend it. It just happened to be right for that particular page.

Again, I'd say not to count the words, just do what's right taking into consideration how you optimized the body text. It all goes together.

! It should be used for titles. Like titles you'd see on a book. No way, jose! That's the biggest mistake people make. Never use your title tag for a title! (If you want high rankings.)

Pretend it's a meta keyword tag (like what most people think a meta keyword tag should be). But I like people thinking it should be used for a title, cuz I can kick their butts in the serps!

Jill

[Advisor]

Originally posted by ihelpyou
Yeah, I know. I did that once and got burnt doing it big time. It's funny how that loooooooong thing works for you but not others. ;) It's possible that the on-the-page optimization stuff I do just fits better with my long titles and the way you do yours fits with shorter ones.

I'd say that probably every page I've ever optimized has a fairly long Title (by your standards) and yes, they all do great!

Jill

[bigDugan]

I disagree. I have dozens of sites with simple titles that are #1 and out rank all my competitors, including those who use excessive titles. I think it will only be a matter of time before the SEs crack down on title tag abuse!
:cheers:

[Advisor]

Originally posted by bigDugan
I disagree. I have dozens of sites with simple titles that are #1 and out rank all my competitors, including those who use excessive titles. I think it will only be a matter of time before the SEs crack down on title tag abuse!
:cheers: Disagree with what? I never said short titles don't work!

But I do know that long titles can work if created correctly.

And let them crack down on title abuse (if there is such a thing). I never abuse my titles, they all make perfect sense for the pages their on.

I do disagree with one thing though. What the search engines would do (and probably already do) is only read up to a certain amount of characters, as opposed to any sort of penalty.

Jill