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chinook
14-10-2002, 10:43/10:43AM
I received an email from a client, and I will also post my return email. Comments are invited:
Dear Wolf:

My name is <snip> and I am the sole owner of the website: <snip>.com

of which I paid to your company to be put on the internet. My web-site designer is <snip>.

There are some things that I am missing and information I need from you.

We forgot the login name for the website and I would like this information sent to my email here or my telephone number <snip>
I am owner the website and I need access to my own email, of which I paid for as well.

Furthermore, I think that having paid to you the price of almost $<snip> for the annual fee for this site to be up and running, that I should be able to have my website working in search engines. For example, when I type in my site in the search engine, nothing shows up and therefore, my site is not registered and I would not like to pay your fee to you to only have a domain name and nothing included.

I cannot use my email as I don't even know how to log it it. AS you will see, my name is the name on the visa, it is my site and I would like this information. If for some reason, you are unable to assist me in getting my domain name registerd so that search engines will work, I would like a refund and to switch to another company. Hopefully we can work something out and asap because so far, this site has NOT helped to generate any business for me.



Thanks alot,

<snip>

Now my reply:
Hello <snip> and thank you for letting us know your concerns. I will try to address each one, hopefully to your satisfaction.

The typical role of a web hosting company is to provide space on their servers to accomodate client's websites. In addition to that, a web hosting company provides the connection to the internet so that the surfing public can access the site. Some web hosting companies will claim to put sites onto search engines. This is almost always done through automated submission programs. I will explain why this is less than desirable and how we address helping our clients achieve success with their websites.

Although the Internet is extremely fast paced, the world of the search engines is agonizingly slow. Let me demonstrate by the example of google which today powers 50 to 90% of the world's searches. Google uses automated programs called spiders (robots) to scour the internet and they follow links from one page to another, analyzing the content and adding to their database. Generally the results of these spiders traversing the internet get accumulated and then added into the master database at least once a month, sometimes more often but those are special case scenarios. So if google is so important (because they power so many searches), how does one get the search engine to include a specific site. There are two ways of this being done. Google does maintain a "submit a site" page. <snip -cause we all know this> The second way of being included in Google is for the spiders (robots) to find your site on their own. As I pointed out earlier the spiders follow links, so the more links from other web pages that your site has the better chance it will be included in the next update. The consensus of experts in the field of search engine technology is that it the spider discovering the site on it's own is better for its rankings in the engines. ( we help our clients by providing such a link, www.<snip> on one of our portal sites). The process I described above can take anywhere from 1 to 6 months to occur (see this is the slow part). Now, once you are in the database, the question becomes how visible within the database are you? A search engine like google takes into consideration many things when it assigns you a rank in the results page. Some of the factors are: # of quality sites linking to you, content that is on the page, competition for keywords in your category, site design techniques.

The reason why automated submission programs are generally not satisfactory is twofold. 1. The major search engines discourage this practice, as it tends to clog their databases with spam and irrelevant results. For example: google ignores automated submissions, dmoz requires a manual application, inktomi ignores automated submissions, yahoo is pay for review, altavista is pay for inclusion, etc. 2. The search engines that do allow automated submission are generally lesser known, low traffic engines or link farms. These types of engines can actually hurt your chances of ranking well, as the search engines generally take a dim view of link farms and will often ban them from their results. Once you are banned it is difficult to get back in. Remember in the previous paragraph I mentioned quality sites, this is very important for the major engines.

To sum up on search engines, we are basically left with manual submission for your site, and that is the responsibility of the webmaster (site owner), or by proxy the web designer. I have personally invested a great deal of time developing and acquiring expertise on search engines. (that is how your developer found us). The world of search engines is full of scam artists who will claim to get you top results and add to that the complexity that each search engine operates differently with most of them now requiring payment of fees (again this is contrary to automated submission). Professional and ethical search engine consultants often charge in the range of $1000 US per month to assist clients to get top results. I don't provide a search engine consulting service but I do offer my clients the benefit of our knowledge with helpful tips and advice on how to get found and how to rank well. Submission and optimization is the client's responsibility. I am in the process of developing a customer resource area which although not complete yet (and that is why it hasn't been announced) already has numerous helpful articles on search engines. To view this , go to www<snip-not for public viewing>
I have reviewed the log files for your site and summarized for you the search engine activity on your site:
Oct 13 - thunderstone (not a search engine)
Oct 12 - firefly (fireball.de)
Oct 3 & 4th full index by googlebot (google search engine)

While reviewing the logfiles, I noticed that your site uses framesets for one section. Framesets need to be optimized in a special way.


Below is the login information I previously provided to your developer:
<snip>

ihelpyou
14-10-2002, 10:54/10:54AM
LOL

This is the problem that is out there. Many hosting cos. scam their clients with "submit to thousands' of search engines for one-time fee of 29 bucks!".

Your clients see this all over the net. One of the biggest scams going, especially with hosting companies.

Blue
14-10-2002, 11:00/11:00AM
how much should a web host do Well, it seems to me that you have, by your lengthy explanation, gone above and beyond what a lot of hosting co's would have done. This shows you are willing to go the extra mile and is a very good thing.

It may invite more correspondence from your client and you should be prepared to further communicate.

Hopefully, since you've provided the (not publically viewable) section on the topic at hand to the client, it may allay his concerns with your company.

It also affords you the opportunity to maybe address this problem somewhere on your site (if it's not in the not publically viewable section of your site already).

But I think you are doing the right thing. This kind of response from you is what will put you ahead of your competition.

:cheers:

ihelpyou
14-10-2002, 11:05/11:05AM
Very true!

Also maybe a separate page set up on your site specifically talking about all of this. You can tell your visitors ahead of time what to expect with many hosting companies and the big scam going on.

Just another way to put yourself above the competition.

chinook
14-10-2002, 11:05/11:05AM
thanks blue & doug for your supportive statements. I have to wonder how many new web sites owners are labouring under the belief of "build it and they will come"

WebSavvy
14-10-2002, 11:38/11:38AM
Originally posted by ihelpyou
... scam their clients with "submit to thousands' of search engines for one-time fee of 29 bucks!"

Erhmmm ... I'd like to point out that not all submission companies are scams.

Doug, you've used mine, as quite a few of the mods here have, as also have some of our members. My service is legit, as you do know.

It bothers me when I see blanket statements like this. The submission industry as a whole has a very foul odor, and with good reason. I'm trying, and have been trying, so hard now for four years, to turn that around.

It doesn't help the cause much when, you are the only legit submission company out there and when you see blanket statements like yours scam their clients with "submit to thousands of search engines for one-time fee of 29 bucks!"

My copy isn't worded that way, anyway, as this to me is spammy. I make the point to educate the client, to inform them to only submit once to SE's and only resubmit when major changes (URLs removed, added, copy changed, directories removed or added) have been made to their domains. Also, I tell them it is necessary to optimize before they consider submission, and I provide a resource directory of links to qualified SEO's with whom I know and trust.

Sorry ... I'll get off the gripe box now. I just needed to get that off my chest. I feel better now. :)

chinook
14-10-2002, 11:49/11:49AM
savvy
what search engines does your service submit to?

glengara
14-10-2002, 11:51/11:51AM
Hi chinook, one possible cause is the way you have 'Free Website Marketing & Promotion' at the top of the page.
I didn't go digging around, but it could well cause confusion to a non-native English speaker.
Maybe make it a link to further info?

chinook
14-10-2002, 11:59/11:59AM
one possible cause is the way you have 'Free Website Marketing & Promotion'

Excellent point, I only recently added that but I can't remember if it was after this person signed up or not. I have very quickly changed that to now read Website Marketing & Promotion (info).

In spite of the possiblity of confusion, we actually do offer "free" marketing and promotion. We not only provide information to our customers but we also provide links with a site description on one of our portals, so the statement was absolutely true. Even though it was true, all will be better served with a clearer description of what marketing & promotion entails.

glengara
14-10-2002, 12:02/12:02PM
Had a closer look around, where is the 'Free Website Marketing & Promotion'?

glengara
14-10-2002, 12:04/12:04PM
That was quick!

ihelpyou
14-10-2002, 12:04/12:04PM
Of course Deb I was not talking about yours. :rolleyes:

Notice the wording I used. You don't say that.

chinook
14-10-2002, 12:09/12:09PM
Glengara, don't forget some of our resources are not publicly viewable, and the reason for that is to give incentive to customers to sign up as opposed to just reading some great material and then going elsewhere.

glengara
14-10-2002, 12:19/12:19PM
Point taken.
Mind you, be prepared for further communications, I'd say your reply has probably further confused the client!

chinook
14-10-2002, 12:28/12:28PM
I'd say your reply has probably further confused the client!

I'll bite, how so?

WebSavvy
14-10-2002, 12:38/12:38PM
Originally posted by chinook
savvy
what search engines does your service submit to?

I used to submit to the majors as well as niche market, and topic/industry specific SE's. I have since removed ALL major SE's, because really ... that should be done as a manual process.

There are over 400 niche-market, industry/specific directories, that I have modules built for now. I actually have more than 2000, but they are currently in PERL format. I rewrote the script about 6 months ago to apache database format .pm files (perl module) and have not had the time to convert (rewrite) all the rest of the modules yet.

I am getting to that as time permits. I'm in the middle of launching a new search engine, which some of you have already known about this. Our target launch date is set for the end of this week, and I still have lots to do before our beta preview.

I'd get more done ... if I didn't spend so much time in here ... lol ... j/k ... actually being in here has helped a lot, there's so much good information here ... it's hard to break away, especially when it's a subject I am passionate about.

scottiecl
14-10-2002, 12:46/12:46PM
Chinook-

Many, many people don't "get" search engines at all. I think your very thoughtful and complete response may have raised more questions in the mind of a person who can't even set up their e-mail!

It's hard to take a step back and think like a newbie, but you have to talk on their level.

Basically, their question was: Are you going to get my site found on all the search engines?

Your response was a very detailed description of how Google works and why some submission companies are scams.

The client may still be thinking, does this mean yes or no? Is my site going to be found on search engines or not?

A simpler response would have been:

(nicely worded, of course)
* We are a hosting company. We make sure your site is up and running and your e-mail is working properly. If you have any issues related to e-mail or your site being up and running, we are happy to solve them to your satisfaction.

*Search Engines are very complicated. If you would like to see more details on getting your site into the search engines, I recommend these resources " site.here and here" for you or your web designer.

*It looks like some search engines have found your site already (log evidence here) so it is probably only a matter of time before your site is available in these search engines. To find out how to rank better, see previously mentioned resources.

Sometimes too much information cannot be processed!
:p

chinook
14-10-2002, 12:54/12:54PM
Sometimes too much information cannot be processed!

absolutely awesome. scottiecl, you make a great point. I have been involved in computers for many years and so I know from firsthand experience that it is far too easy to forget that not everyone speaks the same language. I need to step back into the newbie role but it is hard to do..

ihelpyou
14-10-2002, 12:56/12:56PM
LOL.

Yes, I remember asking myself:

"what's a yahoo?"

:green:

WebSavvy
14-10-2002, 12:58/12:58PM
And ... did you figure it out yet, Doug? :lol:

ihelpyou
14-10-2002, 13:04/01:04PM
Oh, still learning. Learn lots a good new stuff daily. Never a dull or boring moment. :)

glengara
14-10-2002, 13:11/01:11PM
scottiecl said it for me.

Matt B
14-10-2002, 16:43/04:43PM
Chinook;

We tend to run into the same thing here. Once in a while we get a company thast just wants to host, no design, no promotion, no email. We go ahead and take them because we feel it may grow into somehting worthwhile. Invariably it is this type of client that starts to complain 3-6 months later about not getting their email, poor rankings and no sales.

Usually, some poor mid-management collar is tasked with finding a host for the outdated, antiquated website, because their last host just went chapter 11, and the kid that designed it is now in juvi. Not knowing what is involved, and slowly losing sanity after searching through 25 pages of "web hosting" results, he closes his eyes and throws a dart, so to speak. After time, someone expects results, and of course, there are none. If I had a nickel . . .

:rolleyes: Just some daydreaming. I think you handled it much better than I would have. I simply would have told the client that if he read the agreement, he would have known he wasn't paying for promotion. ${snip} is more than a fair price for hosting alone.:D

chinook
14-10-2002, 17:32/05:32PM
I really don't want to do SEO, just for my own site. I have the feeling though that if that is going to be the flavour of many sites, I will be forced into it.

ihelpyou
14-10-2002, 17:45/05:45PM
Explain the service on you site and what getting good ranks actually entails, and then outsource the SEO part of it. I know many hosting companies who do this and quite successfully with it.