split

[zag]

Its nice to see that goguides has its own forum. I think this will help people understand that we are independent and not connected with any other projects.

Thanks for making the split Doug. :cheers:

[excell]

I am a new goguides editor and I have a question and problem about spam as handled in a certain case of a site I submitted. I am wondering if it is ok by Doug & yourself if I post what is happening for me here rather than in the goguides forum?

The reason being that I would like feedback from my peers and the search engine community in general as to their opinion and it may prove helpful to submitters to goguides.

Let me know if you would rather I did not do that thanks.

[ihelpyou]

This is the goguides forum? :)

It's okay by me but I guess it depends on what it is. Use your good judgement. :)

[excell]

LOL@doug.. errm.. THIS is the go guides directory forum at ihelpyouservices.. Yes?

:)

What I want to find out might just help some folks or help me in my thinking etc. I think it will be ok.. and hey if not.. all I ask is that you please delete the thread quick smart (if I make fool of myself,,, you know I can do that!)

[ihelpyou]

Oh, I did not know there was a "GoGuides" forum on the web site of GoGuides. My bad. :eek:

Well, don't keep us in suspense. Make your darn post! :load:

[excell]

but but but... I am still making my full report and we have not yet gained permission from zag!

be patient :)

[ihelpyou]

oh, okay. Carry on then. :D

[excell]

OK.. here we go.. edit at will please Doug!

Desert Images Australia
Australian Business Number 86093293522
URL: desertimages.com.au
This is a wholesale distribution company of a variety of products produced by and for various Australian artists.

Tree of Knowledge Australia
Australian Registered Business Number 02565705
URL: greeting-cards-alternative.com
This is a stand alone company with a stand alone website that utilises a different on-line store and is a manufacturer of a product that is distributed by Desert Images and sits under their canopy for management of distribution.

Both these websites have unique content aimed at different target markets and nowhere has there been any attempt to disguise the relationship between parent and child companies. You cannot order or learn about the Tree of Knowledge product from the Desert Images website and visa versa. (Except of course by obvious links that are provided to help the visitor access the information that is relevant to their needs.)

The Tree of Knowledge website submission was handled by a goguides editor by putting it in the "Definate Spam" section of goguides.

"Tree of Knowledge - "a Division of Desert Images Australia" and plainly linked front page of same, just approved this topic desertimages.com.au/
greeting-cards-alternative.com/"

The question is... is it SPAM?

As a new editor I read all guidelines and it does not (in my opinion) classify itself as SPAM. I based this on the information and examples available in the goguides information and past history of handling.. i.e. Looking at examples within my category that were suspected as SPAM and put back in the directory as NOT SPAM I see a note about our Sophie's Pab site.

With a virtual domain a division of the company is cleared by the goguides SPAM folks as fine with the comment: "Not spam. Same name but different business division and site."

Now what is spam and what is not spam on human edited directories is a very subjective thing it seems. As an editor on a number of directories I have seen all sorts of things happen because of editors lack of knowledge etc... etc.. the misinerpretation of what we all know to be REAL SPAM and I think that this is a good discussion point for those who are submitters and those that have editing priveleges in the volunteer directories.

If our example of Desert Images & Tree of Knowledge is SPAM then I am going to have to go reverse all the submissions I have just done from the government and tourism sites because most of them.. while being "divisions" with stand alone websites link to other divisions. Either that or I think I might give up on goguides :)

I also have another "division" of Desert Images in the pipe line which is the candle manufacturer that will use the distribution channel but have a unique website with a specific target market and it's own dedicated shop and business identity. Will that be spam?

Thank goodness that the unique artist that manufacured dejembe drums dropped out of the loop :) Their unique business would have rung the spam bells far and wide I am sure.. just because they used the same distribution company and had their own stand alone website and business????

What you say?

Zag if you are listening this is NOT intended as a criticism of goguides at all, but is meant as a general topic for discussion about what is and what is not spam on the human edited directories, aimed at helping to clarify things for site builders, optimisers, submitters and editors. :)

{edited - to delink it}

[tlpretender]

Hey excell,

Congrats on your guideship. ;)

Could you email the type of question to teamsupport@goguides.org before letting a spam issue out of the GG private forum, or submit it first on that forum for discussion?

I appreciate your asking first. Very professional.

:)

TL

[excell]

OH NO.. so sorry tlpretender eek!~

It is almost 1am here and I have let shoot.. please liase with doug if you are not happy with my post he will remove it immediatley (I am sure).. I couldn't keep focusing on this.. (gotta move on)

[ihelpyou]

It's a good question though, imo.

I am about ready to blast a whole slew of sites for a listing to GoGuides and JoeAnt. I just have not found the time as yet. I know some of them could be construed as spam, but I know they are surely Not spam. Reason I know this is because I am taking care of them. LOL

[excell]

LOL@doug again :)

[tlpretender]

Actually, that is one of the things that makes human contrbuted directories great is that each site can be individually reviewed and then reviewed again. (This can also be a weakness.) I would post this on the GG forum for the Spam Committee CEO to look at and if needed move back. Easy enough to do.

Personally, I would have left it in the topics, but I may have missed something.

[ihelpyou]

Okay, confused here. :)

So, should we leave the post in here or not? We all keep talking about this forum and that forum so I'm not sure which forum is up or down? LOL

[excell]

Doug.. I think you should delete.. unless you think the thread is valuable .. :)

[excell]

I just realised that really puts doug on the spot.. because if he deletes this it means he considers my input not valuable..

HAHHHAHHAA :)

[ihelpyou]

LOL

I guess if the moderator of this forum thinks we should delete it, then he will delete it. :)

[excell]

OK.. so shuffling feet.. that would mean that I am saved or that the moderator thinks my input to this open forum is not good :)

[tlpretender]

I hate politics. :)

[ihelpyou]

:D

[excell]

It looks as if goguides has a good system for review so I will see what happens.

From what I can see across the human editored directories a lot of the time REAL spam survives because they are tricker to detect and some good sites get trashed just because they are totally upfront and obvious.

[Glo]

Before this thread gets deleted I'd like to comment from an editors point of view. The problem I see is that the card site sells the artwork in card form that is on the desert images site. Both sites sell those cards which would make listing them both redundant.

I do realize that the card site also sells something different along with the artists cards. The real question is - is the card site unique enough to warrant a listing, especially since a user can get to the site from the desert image site. It would be a tough call for any editor.

Personally, I'd probably list only the desert image site. If you want to make these two site unique than I'd remove the artists cards completely from the card site and let its unique content stand alone. That's assuming they are owned by the same person/company.

If there are a lot of sites selling these images on the net, a good editor will try to find the parent company and list only that site. Not an easy task and very time consuming. But experience tells me that if there are two sites offering the images and they are owned by two separate individuals, then there are more out there.

Nothing is written in stone, so I could be persuaded to change my mind if your argument is sound and doesn't violate the guidelines. But, guidelines are like everything else, subjective and subject to interpretation by the one reading them.

Nice sites, BTW.

[excell]

:) Errm thanks for your input but what you are saying is not correct.

You cannot buy the Tree of Knowledge at the Desert Images site and you cannot buy the Desert Images range from the Tree of Knowledge site.

They are separate wholesale companies, but Desert Images does the physical distribution.

There are no other wholesale websites for any of these products and yes they are good sites with unique content and functionality.

The free card galleries are very popular and a lot of folks use them. I don't think I will be changing the sites anytime soon the galleries are there for people to enjoy :)

[excell]

PS. As far as other websites for this goes there are a couple of retail outlets with websites, all have their own unique content and other productlines etc. all are advertised up front as "retail outlets" so people can buy retail.

I really think that with so much REAL & deceptive spam around sites like this are quality.

The goguides issue was sorted out with both sites listed in appropriate categories.

I had another one similar incident with DMOZ as well, a new editor deleted a site that was a member information site because it had another site in the same cat that had entirely different content. When it was pointed out it was similarily fixed by creating a new category for the organisation's site.

So, the good thing about the human edited directories is that they communicate and sort things out for the vistors best interests. (well most of the time :))

As a submitter read the guidelines carefully and stick to them and select the very best category for sites.

[tlpretender]

Wow! Glo / Excell you guys are up late or early. I left the volume up on my speakers and the mail alarm or what ever its called kept waking me so I thought I'd come turn it down and read some of it.

Glad it worked out for you E.

I agree with Glo that guidelines are to be interpreted. I agree with you Excell on this being a good thing for human edited directories.

Okay. Turning back the clock for my extra hour.

Night all.

[Glo]

Here (http://greeting-cards-alternative.com/free-e-cards/australian-aboriginal-dreamtime.html) is where the confusion lies. Where the links are for wholesale and retail of the art prints and printed greeting cards. Last night I was unaware that I went to the desert images site from the wholesale link. Admittedly, it was late when I wondered through the sites but I can see why the original reviewing editor thought the two sites were selling the same thing. It's not clear that your user is being sent to another site.

Apparently these two sites are not listed on Joeant, so I'm going to list them to save you from having to explain the difference again. ;)

Cheers :)

[excell]

LOL ok you do that.. that link is directly into the free greeting cards... no product is sold and you cannot buy from there. Yes there are links on how to order (if you like) to the wholesale & retail suppliers sites if folks want to know :) and that is mainly for "credits" etc but most folks just really want to send cards from that section.

Oh my! does this really mean I now have to go check out joeants to see if they are good? :)

[ihelpyou]

JoeAnt is good. I recommend submitting to them. They are also really working hard at having a great directory. :)

[excell]

but but but,, there is only so much a person CAN DO... !

ok ok.. I will get there eventualy