More on CSS

[MazY]

So, now my site is roughly 50% converted to CSS what have I learned?

Well, if it was just me saying it, I would not believe how much quicker CSS makes one's pages load! After I did the first page or two, I "thought" that they "felt" quicker to load. However, I brushed it aside as my imagination.

After a few more pages, I began to question my imagination. After numerous comments from others, we all agree that they do indeed load considerably quicker! So, thanks guys.

What else have we learned? Ah yes, I have had a problem with a mysterious right hand margin since day one of the new site design and some of the best designers that I know have not had a solution for it. And boy have I asked a lot of people. Well, after applying CSS, though I don't really know why, the problem has disappeared!

And what else? Well, a little dirty this one, and I do NOT suggest that you try it unless you are prepared to accept the possible consequences. Given that the common theory about <H1> headings are given greater weight to the search engine rankings than (a) standard text and (b) other headings, but they look so damned ugly - CSS offers a rather devious alternative.

Being the inquisitive type that I am, I wondered - what if I redefine the size of the <H1> font to anything that I like - what would the effect be? Especially as the search engine spiders do not see the css file.

Sure enough, you can actually soak your pages in H1 tags as far as the search engine spiders are concerned but with the appearance to the user of a say, size 10 (2) font.

Again, think very carefully before adopting this approach. Even if it cannot be detected today, it does not mean that it will not be next week. I will emphasise that I have not done it across my pages but rather that it was one of those things that I had to test out for myself.

So, more CSS for me I think. I've only really used it for the text formatting and shall do more as I get more adept at it.

Thanks again to the CSS gang for opening my eyes.

[ihelpyou]

Thanks for sharing your experience MazY! :up:

[highman]

Glad to see you in the fold MazY ;)

The H1 tag definition has been doing us grand for over a year now, note you can also get rid of the large spaces it adds above and below using .css

Have a look here (http://www.ihelpyouservices.com/forums/t541/s.html) for a tip on using css for a cheeky way to detect the users browser

I always go to some of the larger sites and download their stylesheets to check on the latest trends

[MazY]

Originally posted by highman
Glad to see you in the fold MazY ;)

note you can also get rid of the large spaces it adds above and below using .css

How would that be achieved dare I ask? As it is damned ugly!

[highman]

H1
{
FONT-WEIGHT: bold;
FONT-SIZE: 17px;
COLOR: #cc0000;
LINE-HEIGHT: 0.5mm;
FONT-FAMILY: Verdana,Helvetica,San Serif;
TOP-MARGIN: 0px;
LEFT-MARGIN: 0px;
RIGHT-MARGIN: 0px;
BOTTOM-MARGIN: 0px
}

BODY
{
FONT-SIZE: 13px;
MARGIN: 0px;
FONT-FAMILY: Verdana,Helvetica,San Serif
}


Taken from one of our sheets, where the body text sits under the H1 tag. I think its the margin and line height setting that removes the damn ugly bit ;)

Have a play

[Sharon & Roy]

Originally posted by MazY

Sure enough, you can actually soak your pages in H1 tags as far as the search engine spiders are concerned but with the appearance to the user of a say, size 10 (2) font.

Hello Maz & Forum-Mates,

We'd just like to give our opinion and a few points to consider about the H1 tag and what Maz just expressed.

1) Search Engine algorithms are smart. Smart enough to detect things that most of us could not even imagine. Now whether the SE algorithm can automatically detect the "illegal" use of the H1 (or any Hx tag) tag is anyone's guess at this time. Our advice is to always assume that the SE can detect spamdexing. It's always better to be safe than sorry as the wise SEO professionals say.

2) What Search Engine algorithms are not smart enough to detect, humans are, and they will be able to easily detect a WHOLE Web page soaked in H1 tags, report them, and voila, you're either penalized or banned. That is not worth it folks.

3) Once a "genuine" SEO Technique becomes available to use in "deceptive" ways, such as with the ability to decrease the actual size of the Hx tags, here is what we believe to be deductive reasoning on the part of the SE. As long as you do NOT over use the Hx tags any more than you would at it's non-converted CSS size then we believe that the SE have "factored" that into their algorithms. This would be detectable along the same lines as they can detect keyword stuffing. We offer up that once a certain amount of words/characters are detected in the various Hx tags, that penalties are accessed in the same way as they did with "meta keywords tag" stuffing.

Originally posted by highman

The H1 tag definition has been doing us grand for over a year now

Hello highman,

Maybe you would like to share your experience with the H1 tags with us all, in the sense of what would be a "legal" use of them on a page.

Like, is enclosing a three word keyphrase in an H1 tag 3 times on the page too much or just enough? Do you use only the H1 tag on a page or do you make use of the other Hx tags as well. You get the idea.

Now we are not asking you to share with us your super-duper-insider-trade-secrets or anything, but just a "guideline" to adhere to that has proven successful for you is all. Thanks.

[highman]

Just so we are clear on this issue.

H1, H2 or Hx tags should only be used in there proper / natural format. H1 tags would be your title / opening tag and then progresivly running down the tags in sub headings down the page

The only reason we 'adjust' the size of these tags is to please the eye of the surfer and to add a professional 'look and feel' to the page. If the tags are used as they are supposed to be I see no reason to worry about this practice

super-duper-insider-trade-secrets not really, common sense, as is most SEO

Mike

[MazY]

Having discovered that it does in fact work as I guessed it would, I did a little research of my own, by asking those whose opinions I trust.

It seems that this is quite a common practise. Nobody has yet to report a site being banned for using it. However, this does not make it a good idea for SEO. Far from it.

On the contrary. If you really must do it then do it on your own site, not on a client's site. To repeat: just because the search engines are not smart enough to detect it today, does not mean that they will not next week!

It all boils down to how well you want to sleep at night I guess.

You have been warned.

Sharon & Roy, I did not, repeat did not, suggest that anyone soak their "whole" page, so please do not try to infer that. Nobody is suggesting that. Now, please, if you can offer me anything other than supposition on the issue, please do so.

<H> tags are perfectly lawful and proper on any web page, in moderation. Where the designer draws that line is totally up to them.

As Mark rightly points out, there is a purely cosmetic reason for altering the <H> tags with CSS - that being to suit the look and feel of the page. Remember, the word is "design".

[MazY]

Originally posted by Sharon & Roy
We offer up that once a certain amount of words/characters are detected in the various Hx tags, that penalties are accessed in the same way as they did with "meta keywords tag" stuffing.


I know I am beating the same old drum here but I do wish you would also "offer up" some fact behind these extremely broad and totally unproven statements once in a while.

[Sharon & Roy]

Originally posted by

Sharon & Roy, I did not, repeat did not, suggest that anyone soak their "whole" page, so please do not try to infer that. Nobody is suggesting that. Now, please, if you can offer me anything other than supposition on the issue, please do so.

Hi Maz,

Before we respond to your comment, let us first say that we do not dislike you in any way or have any ill feelings toward you (or anyone) and we do not wish to have this dialog between us turn "ugly" in any way, shape, or form.

We absolutely respect you and appreciate your comments and opinions and consider you our fellow Forum-Mate as well as our friend. Personalities are something we can never really truly get a full appreciation of nor can we even get a full reading of when we interact via just the written word as we can via the spoken word and/or even face to face.

Having said that, your above comment, seems to us to be quite "defensive" and for absoluetly no reason except that you said, we inferred you said, soak their "whole" page ... which we NEVER did.

You simply read "something" into our opinions that we never "inferred" in the least. We are not angry over it, nor do we want to have you "angry" or "upset" or what ever "emotion" you may be feeling because of it.

We simply ask that you not "read" more into our statements and opinions before you FIRST ask us if it is true.

For example, how hard would it have been for you to say this instead ...

Sharon & Roy, did you infer that I suggested that anyone soak their "whole" page with H1 tags? If you did, please do not try to infer that. Nobody is suggesting that. Now, please, if you can offer me anything other than supposition on the issue, please do so.

Maz, we would have then simply answered your question with, "No, Maz, we did not infer that at all."

Maz, what we are attempting to do here is to avoid any future misunderstandings, do you see that? We absoultely do not want to "quarrel" with you (or anyone) for even one second. That is not what we are here for. We are here to offer up our opinions and to offer up food for thought and further research and study on various SEO Techniques.

[MazY]

I don't see it as an issue of personality at all, but like it or not your text does contain, and I quote:

"and they will be able to easily detect a WHOLE Web page soaked in H1 tags, report them, and voila, you're either penalized or banned."

LOL You even emphaised the "WHOLE"?

We have had this discussion before, I feel sure of it.

And please - writing lessons now? That seems about as sensible as me trying to teach you about "women owned web sites". I'm trying to be nice. :)

[MazY]

Anyway - on to more fun issues...


Such is my new found addiction of CSS, (and I blame Mark and Mel entirely for this) I have totally revamped the site. I think I'm getting into the whole XP experience a tad too much. :D

The VBM Site (http://www.vbmedia.co.uk)

Thanks again guys for pointing out the errors of my ways.

[ihelpyou]

Site looks great Maz, but where is that picture? :eek:

[MazY]

lol - It's still there abusing the eyes of the masses.

[ihelpyou]

http://www.vbmedia.co.uk/web-design-about-us.htm LOL

[highman]

nice site, I love the way css gets your code 'lean and mean' and so do the spiders :)

[markymark]

Good looking site, Mazy. XML for you next, my boy ;)

[MazY]

LOL

Easy tiger. I'd like to get au fait with CSS first!

[JuniorHarris]

Great job Maz!~ Looks very nice!

As a side note, I will mention that I have found numerous sites listed within Google which are soaked in H1 tags...so I'm not sure there is a penalty in place (today) for over-usage. We can all agree that H1 tags boost relevancy for the wrapped words, but could the boost simply be over the other words within the document itself? And if so, over-usage of H1 tags would simply dilute the effect and not necessarily be cause for penalties or banning.

[Jennifer Dalbeck]

I went and visited your site Mazy very nice one day I'll learn CSS myself

[chafis]

does css or h1 affect your ranking anybody knows maybe

[Mel]

Well..........yes sort of.

CSS can indirectly affect your rankings as it lets you do some vcool things regarding putting your content right where you want it.

H1 tags (and all the H family tags) can definitely assist in getting better rankings for your page, use them in order with the H1 near the top of the page and use them sparingly, remeber that they should enhance your viewers understanding of your page content.

[chafis]

H i Mel thanks for your repond,what do you mean that we should use h1 in ORDER for instance if you go to our home page www.newyorkcameraexchange.com we added h5 because h1 is UGLY what do you think?

[Blue]

I think Mel is saying that SE's will "weight" heading tags with h1 receiving the most weight and h6 receiving the least weight.

You can use a H1 tag, and then bring it down to a more user friendly size, using CSS. Beware not to abuse this, however!

:cheers:

<edit> Here's a good thread on CSS: http://www.ihelpyouservices.com/forums/t495/s.html</edit>

[chafis]

Hi blue and thank you can you show me for instance in my home page where to put the css i clicked on that linked but there is noclear idea how to enter it just please send me a ample or you coud use my home page thanks

[Blue]

Hi chafis,

I'll first direct you here (http://www.w3c.org/Style/CSS/) where you can learn all the ins & outs of CSS.

Next, check out this (http://www.bradsoft.com/topstyle/index.asp) excellent CSS editor.

And lastly, view the source for this (http://www.handyman4u.com/headings.htm) file. You'll see this line in the <head></head> section:<link rel="stylesheet" href="css.css" type="text/css"> This line calls an "external stylesheet" I've named css.css that formats any of the code in the HTML marked withclass="cssHeaderSmall" or any of the other classes defined in the external .css file. Here is the code for the css.css file:.css { font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: x-small}
.cssHeaderSmall { font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: small }
.cssHeaderXtraSmall { font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: x-small} Alternatively, you could code the css code internally, but you'll need to read up on the w3c site to really get into CSS.

:cheers: