Anyone heard of Salsa or Top-Pile?

[Emilie]

Hi!

I recently received an email about a company, Top-Pile, and their "great" service, Salsa, which promises to put you on the first page of all major search engines (Yahoo!, AOL, MSN, inktomi etc...). It works like a PPC system, in the sense that you pay for every click-through, but the listings appear in the "normal" section on the listings (i.e. not under sponsored listings, as is the case of Overture).

They called me today and told me it would cost me 5 cents per click for the same keywords I pay Overture over $6.00 for.

What they do is they register a domain and create a mirror of our website which they customize to be ideal for search engines. This website automatically forwards to the real homepage.

I'm attaching their literature.

What do you think of this method? It seems almost too good to be true, which is why it gives me a queasy feeling. Would search engines consider this service to be spam?

How do you think this could affect my position on SE in the long term? Could it be at all harmful?

Thanks for letting me know what you think,

Emilie

[ihelpyou]

Welcome to the forums Emilie! :hi:

You did REAL good by asking in here first! Here is a long thread about them:
http://www.ihelpyouservices.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=4095&highlight=TopPile

One of the biggest spammers on the planet and should avoided at all costs. You should send them an email demanding they take you OFF their spam list immediately. They are a scam and a huge spammer.

[Emilie]

Thanks ihelpyou!

I figured as much. I hate these companies who take advantage of small companies who don't have the funds or time to properly research SEO.

Fortunately, we're big enough so that I spend a lot of time doing SEO and knew something was up here but imagine the number of people they're scamming out there. INcredible, some people really have no sense of morals.

I wrote to them this morning quoting (i think) your article that says that using doorways is spamming and asking them how they felt knowing they were scamming lots of people. I asked them to take me off their mailing lists.

Thanks for your answer.

Emilie

[big blue]

I've used Top-Pile for years, and have saved me a fortune, and we are a small company, Its much cheaper than Pay-per-click

[ihelpyou]

Welcome to the forums big blue! :hi:

Yeah right. They get domains banned forever at every turn.

[projectphp]

LMAO. I had to read this forum simply because I wanted to see Doug fire up.

Top-pile have made a career out of doing stuff that is dangerous, risky or free, adn then charging exhorbitant prices for the priveledge.

IMHO, $0.05 is no better than $6 unless the ROI is better, plain and simple. Unless you can track what they do and prove it works, all you are getting is ripped off no matter what strategy an SEO employs.

Big Blue, I am happy it words for you, and if you understand teh risks, good luck to you. But when one day your site is banned or penalised, you will certainly know, i not why, where to strat looking!!!!

[big blue]

Infact your site is not banned from the SE's. Only the Salsa site would be banned ( I've Checked)

With the increased traffic and conversions, the ROI is much better, Also with a yearly price it is much easier to budget for as opposed to bidding etc.

In fact I think it is cheeky that we the consumers are being forced by SE's to use pay-per-click.

I get all the stats and tracking stats that you could possibly want, and they have proved it works. and whats more it is Very cheap, It is Effective and is all automated.

Hell I would'nt usually care, but it does work, so save some money like I did.

[MakeMeTop]

>Infact your site is not banned from the SE's.

Want to bet?

Theoretically, you are right - as it is the SALSA site that is doing the spamming. However, I know of at least two instances of people who have had their main site penalized as a result of "innapropriate redirect pages" linking to them. Both used SALSA.

Still, your business decision.

And who did you check with? Not SALSA, I hope.

I know for a fact that certain SEs will give you a very different answer.

[big blue]

You have to differentiate between your web site and any potentially offending gateway/ pages.. No web site will ever be banned because their page was linking to that site that the SE's did'nt like. I've Now checked with both Se's and salsa.

I would be very interested to chat with the ppl you mentioned that were banned.

[ihelpyou]

Putting it to you this way:

If you show me "your" url of the site that toppile is working for, ... one email is all it would take. :D

Trust me.... NO SE out there likes TP and NEVER will.

[MakeMeTop]

>I've Now checked with both Se's...

Really!

Now who at these SEs are you friendly enough to talk to I wonder? Surprisingly, I get a different response.

Mind you, I probably ask a different question. There is a lot of difference in asking if someone's spam linking to your site can affect your rankings and admitting you deliberately employ a spammer to boost your search engine visibility, are you likely to penalize my site if you find out? :D

> I would be very interested to chat with the ppl you mentioned that were banned.

I bet you would ;)

Probably easier to search the net for references to top-pile and SALSA, there are enough independent comments out there to draw your own conclusions.

[Alan Perkins]

big blue's IP address resolves to Paddy Bolger of Net Village. Net Village is the parent company of Top Pile and Paddy Bolger is the CEO of Top Pile.

[big blue]

However I know for a fact some of the largest companies in the world use this very system. We are being scammed by SE's to use bid or PPC

[ihelpyou]

Hey Paddy Bolger:

BUSTED! (name edited out by me.. Doug. There are ZERO names that accurately describe you.)

Get a life please.

Your company is the "why" many websites are very leary about our industry. One day you will be gone, and the internet in general will be a much safer and better place.

[MakeMeTop]

>big blue's IP address resolves to Paddy Bolger of Net Village...

Now, why doesn't that surprise me :)

[scisoft]

Originally posted by ihelpyou
Putting it to you this way:

If you show me "your" url of the site that toppile is working for, ... one email is all it would take. :D

Trust me.... NO SE out there likes TP and NEVER will.

Hi.

I am not a SEO veteran, but with all due respect - this concept seems unlikely.

Otherwise, to ruin a competitor would cost just buying one domain, creating a over-optimised mirror and redirecting the mirror to them. Or even paying a true spammer company for the dirty work. Than wait a month and send a nice e-mail to Google.

[ihelpyou]

Very true. A client of TopPile's is who is going to be hurt. Why would a website wish to use another domain because their domain was banned or penalized?

TopPile is all about spamming the search engines using 1000's of machine generated 'garbage' pages that clog up the SERPS.

Competition? LOL No way could TopPile be considered a competitor of any legimate SEO company. TopPile has zero clue as to what real SEO is. He never will.

[ihelpyou]

Further:

http://www.jupiterevents.com/sew/winter04/agenda2.html

Read down the page at 'who' is speaking in one of the sessions. A tee-total disgrace to the SEO industry and Marketing industry. Pathetic. Astounding. Amazing. Unprecendented. Quite a joke and a spit in the face to all true Professional SEO's.

[scisoft]

Originally posted by ihelpyou
Very true. A client of TopPile's is who is going to be hurt. Why would a website wish to use another domain because their domain was banned or penalized?

TopPile is all about spamming the search engines using 1000's of machine generated 'garbage' pages that clog up the SERPS.

Competition? LOL No way could TopPile be considered a competitor of any legimate SEO company. TopPile has zero clue as to what real SEO is. He never will.

Sorry.

I probably did not express myself exactly. What I mean is:

Let us imagine that I have a client selling vacuum cleaners who is No 2 but wants the No1 rankings. There is well SEOed No1 website before the client. Thus it should be possible to get rid of the No1 (the competitor) just by hiring spammer to mirror the No1 website (with redirect of course).

So I do not believe that having a spammer working for you (mirror and redirect) will hurt your website. Otherwise, everybody can ruin you by hiring a spammer to mirror your site.

I am NOT saying that I appreciate spammers.

Hope it is clear now.

[ihelpyou]

Oh, I agree with that.

Look at this. Read the whole thing. It's all about TopPile's Salsa program. This is the guy who was 'invited' to speak on "Organic SEO" at the SES conference in New York City that started "TODAY".

http://engine.solid8.com/solid8/Top-pile/article01.pdf

Go ahead, read the crap and all about the pathetic SPAM program. This is the guy who was asked to fly to New York To speak. Is this the best we can do for our industry? This guy has Never optimized a real website in his life. He cloaks. He Spams. He spits at the search engines and claims he has 5000 satisfied clients. Give me a break please. Our leaders let this guy speak at the most visible conference put on by the most visible people in our industry.

Pathetic.

[PaddyBolger]

Hi, this is Paddy Bolger here. I have had this thread brought to my attention.

First things first - I am not big blue, and I have no idea who big blue is. I assume it is an employee or ex-employee but so far my requests for the relevant member of staff to identify themselves has fallen on deaf ears. If I could have that IP address I would be very appreciative as I would like to get to the bottom of this.

I do not as a practice go on to forums anonymously. I do not approve of anyone going on to forums in this way as it is not in the spirit of what forums are about.

Barry, in answer to your post, it most certainly should surprise you - I thought you knew me better than that.

Enough of the apologies, on to the point - whether top-pile is a spammer is down to what you think spam is. If creating mini-sites that are purely there for the search engines is your definition, then in your eyes we are a spammer, and a very good one at that. There is no great point in going over old ground here but we do what we do, we do it very well and our clients are happy. We have developed a system that enables SME's to get more relevant traffic at a far lower cost than search engines or manual optimisers charge. To me it is a valuable service to a needy market, to you it is spam.

Secondly, if we get domains banned then that is our business. We own them , we operate them, they have a useful life and we discard them. End of story. Forget the fact that we have never in the history of SALSA got a domain banned by google, as an optimisation company whose job is to beat the search engines we absolutely realise that we could get domains banned that we operate by sailing too close to the wind and we are always prepared for that eventuality.

Thirdly, projectphp, you are absolutely right, 5 cents is no better than $6 unless you have ROI. I guess that is our point really, we have ROI, if we did not we would not have 5,000 clients.

Barry, I am very disappointed in you. There has never in the history of SALSA been a client who has had their site penalised in any way whatsoever due to SALSA, and I am afraid that I am being driven here to seeking legal action for your claim. At the very least you could start by emailing me (you know my address) with full details, but you have made a claim that is simply not true - if it was don't you think the client would have said something to us??? What you state here is damaging to top-pile and frankly untrue and you have to realise that this is something I must pursue. By the way, this thread was brought to my attention by a prospective client.

And now let me get to the important point in the message - ihelpyou, you state that one email is all it would take to get banned and I have no doubt that you in particular would use it. I sincerely hope that you are not actually in the optimisation business (your web site stating "we are now a full service search engine marketing and optimization company" suggests that you are a talker rather than a doer) because what all of you guys don't seem to realise is that every time you report a page to google etc you end up getting yourselves banned.

Barry, I know for a fact that you have lost a lot of positions in Google. Did it ever occur to you that you and all the other optimisers that seem to get some glee from this activity of reporting spam actually caused the problems you are now having? Because what you did not realise is that Google does not remove spam pages, it simply logs the spam and writes algorithms to delete them all in one go, and when that happens all your pages go as well because you are breaking the rules in the strictest sense of the words as well. In fact, most people are breaking the rules, they just don't realise it.

In fact, Google says, don't optimise full stop.

So why don't you guys think long and hard before you do rash things that are going to blow up in your face.

As for top-pile, the great benefit of software is the data analysis capabilities that go with it and I am very pleased to say that we have cracked the google changes 100% and have gained a huge competitive advantage from it. What you people would be far better off doing is keeping your mouths shut, getting on with your business and finding some serious competitive USPs over us.

Finally, ihelpyou (although help who is the question - it seems to me that with your attitude you help the search engines more than your clients) you have provided a link to an article that was written about us a good while back. Interestingly, you linked to this instead of our web site info - maybe because the article was closer to your argument. In other words you went to our site and found we do things quite differently to how we used to do them and resorted to the article to support your argument. It is called selective arguments and quite frankly is beneath me.

My recommendation to anyone who is serious about search engine optimisation is to get as far away as possible from this forum because it serves no useful purpose except to perpetuate a ridiculous myth that search engine optimisation is all about doing what the search engine tell you to do.

[ihelpyou]

You are a real prize Paddy.....

And yes, I can email Google right now. Show me just one client of yours and they will be banned today. That's a fact. Maybe you would like to test this?


because what all of you guys don't seem to realise is that every time you report a page to google etc you end up getting yourselves banned.
Let's find out dude. :green: Show me that client of yours and we shall see who gets banned today.

Further; trust me, we could easily find 'one' client who has been penalized using your scam software. Your livlihood depends on a the new webmaster/owner who does not get involved with the search engines. If it wasn't for the very nature of the internet, your business would not exist at all. If up to these forums, it won't exist for too long.

[PaddyBolger]

Sad

[ihelpyou]

Sad? You bet it's sad. Go ahead, show me one client. Just one.

[ihelpyou]

btw Paddy; Alan already answered your question about the member called 'big blue'.

big blue's IP address resolves to Paddy Bolger of Net Village. Net Village is the parent company of Top Pile and Paddy Bolger is the CEO of Top Pile.
I guess you did not read it? Alan does not lie about stuff like this.

[PaddyBolger]

Wow, what paranoia! Did I say anywhere whatsoever that I thought Alan was lying? Did I even suggest it? To help you along here, let me reproduce the relevant text:

I assume it is an employee or ex-employee but so far my requests for the relevant member of staff to identify themselves has fallen on deaf ears. If I could have that IP address I would be very appreciative as I would like to get to the bottom of this.

Now could someone, anyone, please tell me how such a request could merit the response I received.

Maybe you simply misunderstand, ihelpyou. I don't have an IP address, I have blocks of 250 IP addresses. The only way that I can find out who posted the message is for you to tell me WHICH IP address and then I can trace it to the poster.

[Kal]

Originally posted by PaddyBolger
There is no great point in going over old ground here but we do what we do, we do it very well and our clients are happy. Well keep doing what you're doing Paddy, because some of your "happy" clients end up hiring the rest of us to clean up the mess you cause. Good job! :thumb:

[PaddyBolger]

Ah, a sense of humour - how refreshing!

Interesting that our clients are pouring over to New Zealand to have their "mess" sorted out
;)

Actually, we have a couple of resellers in New Zealand - perhaps you would like to become one Kal?

[Webmaster T]

Originally posted by PaddyBolger
we get domains banned then that is our business.Removed a little extrenuous ad text there but that does sums up your service quite well, in your own words no less! The callous manner in which you use public and SE resources is IMO, reprehensible, all are finite resources but you treat them like most treat toilet papper!

We own them , we operate them, they have a useful life and we discard them. End of story. Thanks you made my point above! Like decent domain names aren't a valuable commodity and in short supply! Geez pull your head out o' your anus the Internet is bigger then your desk!

Forget the fact that we have never in the history of SALSA got a domain banned by google, yes you have, your own domain comes to mind whether it was because of SALSA or not is not germaine to the question of whether you have never got a domain banned. you have admitted in other forums that this domain was banned for, once again, inappropriare use of a resource, namely remote queries of googles index which any one claiming to be what you say you are knows is one of the few reasons sites do get banned! You dance around the banned domains issue by claiming none have been banned and yet later you say you plan for that day. Which is it? SALSA doesn't get domains banned or not. Whether it is the client site or not is semantics. Sites are by your own admission being banned. Which site is only semantics...
Thirdly, projectphp, you are absolutely right, 5 cents is no better than $6 unless you have ROI. I guess that is our point really, we have ROI, if we did not we would not have 5,000 clients.IMO only prooves old PT was right! "there is a sucker born......"
And now let me get to the important point in the message - ihelpyou, you state that one email is all it would take to get banned and I have no doubt that you in particular would use it. I sincerely hope that you are not actually in the optimisation business (your web site stating "we are now a full service search engine marketing and optimization company" suggests that you are a talker rather than a doer) because what all of you guys don't seem to realise is that every time you report a page to google etc you end up getting yourselves banned.Then why is Dougs site still in the SERPs for search engine optimization and old toppile is not anywhere? Why isn't he banned, why isn't SeoPros? Just because you say it, doesn't make it so! Proove it!
As for top-pile, the great benefit of software is the data analysis capabilities that go with it and I am very pleased to say that we have cracked the google changes 100% and have gained a huge competitive advantage from it..Competitive advantage? How? your own site is banned! Creating what you do is neither cracking algos, or optimization for that matter, it is nothing but a house of cards that lasts as long as the suckers, excuse me, clients, pay! What you people would be far better off doing is keeping your mouths shut, getting on with your business and finding some serious competitive USPs over usThe day you can compete with me on longevity of solution and "real cost" is the day I pack up the computer and retire!!!!. I don't charge maintenance fees because quite simply there is nothing to maintain other then content additions and they don't need me for that. So in the long run since my clients can own the work I do and it lasts the "real cost" and ROI dwarfs anything you provide where the only way to maintain the traffic is to keep paying. All your points about SALSA are answers that only dupes would believe.

Finally, ihelpyou (although help who is the question - it seems to me that with your attitude you help the search engines more than your clients) you have provided a link to an article that was written about us a good while back. Interestingly, you linked to this instead of our web site info - maybe because the article was closer to your argument.Or he simply doesn't believe linking to toppileo'crap is in anyones best interest!
My recommendation to anyone who is serious about search engine optimisation is to get as far away as possible from this forum because it serves no useful purpose except to perpetuate a ridiculous myth that search engine optimisation is all about doing what the search engine tell you to do.If only you could follow your own advice! But if it's like the rest of your advice you don't follow it because you know from where it came!

Hope you find this amusing as well!:D

[Kal]

Originally posted by PaddyBolger
Actually, we have a couple of resellers in New Zealand Who do you think are our new clients? :rolleyes:

[ihelpyou]

Yeah Paddy, Why don't you go around to ALL the search engine forums? You can read different threads about "recent" clients of YOURS. Yes recent. Take a look around. Then come back here and tell us again how ALL your clients are happy. Go ahead, make my day.

One as we speak is going to do a "charge back" with his credit card bank for "YOUR" services. What do you think of them apples? Don't ever try to tell me or my members again how great you are, okay?

[episodesusdbz]

This exchange should be on TV! The evidence seems to suggest that the blue chip = Paddy Bolger. Mr Perkins has him cold with the ip thingie. The ex employee bit seems kind of lame.

But live and let live and spam no more please.

[ihelpyou]

This is on the Jupiter Media website:

Unlike some conferences, speaking slots on sessions at Search Engine Strategies are not sold or given in return for sponsorship of the event. Instead, the conference chair carefully plans sessions designed to cover all aspects of search engine marketing. He then personally invites speakers to take part in various sessions, based on the knowledge and experience they can bring to conference attendees.
The words have changed recently. Whoever the chairperson is of the particular SES conference has to 'personally' invite the speakers for each session. Knowing this, and knowing that any chairperson should be someone with lots of integrity and may be well-known as well, don't we all agree that any speakers who are asked to speak in front of the SES 'paid' attendees would be of the highest quality? Do we all agree that any speaker at such a high profile conference as SES is would be given LOTS of credibility if they are "ASKED" to speak at SES?

Given that, how is it that at MANY SES conferences around the world including those in the US and UK, etc, we can always find SPAMMERS who are asked by the "chairperson" to be speakers?

The above quote can be found on this page:
http://www.jupiterevents.com/sew/toronto04/sessions.html

One such speaker at a UK SES conference coming up can be seen here:
http://www.jupiterevents.com/sew/london04/agenda2.html

What does this say for our industry? Is anyone concerned by the lack of the understanding of the issues involved with SPAM? Is anyone concerned by the "leading" search engine conference "ASKING" spammers to speak? Is anyone concerned by these spammers who are given a HUGE boost in credibility because they are speaking on "search engine optimization", and are then seen as an authority with LOTS of credibility because they are speaking on the subject?

Does anyone else share my concerns about this?

Please click that link above and scroll down to the session on "Regular SEO", and then please tell me who in here is extremely mad about this? I sure am. Pathetic.

I would love for the 'chairperson' of the UK SES conference to actually tell us how he/she went about deciding on who would be a speaker on SEO at this conference. Please tell us the thought processes involved.

[peter_d]

Looks like a diverse and interesting group of speakers to me :)

[ihelpyou]

Yeah right Peter.

TOPPILE as a speaker? Have you not read the thread we are in? :green:

Give me a break already.

Anyone who thinks giving TopPile a way to get credibility and a way to get new business from unsuspecting website owners is a good thing, has got to be living in their own little world and does not give two shites about ANY website owner on the planet.

[peter_d]

Thanks for the welcome :)

I have indeed read the thread we are in. Given the variety of approaches there are to SEM, then it makes sense to offer a diverse range of views at an industry conference, no?

Wouldn't want to get too blinkered...

[ihelpyou]

yes, you believe in giving all website owners.. newbies and veterns alike, a speaker as a spammer. You don't care about the fact quite a few of those newbies will end up hiring this SES speaker only because he is a speaker.

You don't care about that, right? You believe in "buyer beware", right? All you ever seem to care about is embracing any and all spammers no matter what practices they use, right? You believe we all as an industry should equally love and embrace all forms of spam, right?

btw, you only seem to post in here when you can take the side of spammers. No welcome is necessary because of that.

[ihelpyou]

Believe me, o'l Paddy is "not" going to speak about 'his' spam techniques at the SES conference. He won't do that at all. He will be a good speaker.

You know that is not the point.

What he will do is talk to members before and after the fact about his services. That is the point.

[peter_d]

yes, you believe in giving all website owners.. newbies and veterns alike, a speaker as a spammer. You don't care about the fact quite a few of those newbies will end up hiring this SES speaker only because he is a speaker.

They might hire him because he's wearing a particularly nice tie :) Also, I haven't embraced anyone who sends unsolicited e-mail lately. I've embraced my wife, but I'm pretty sure she's not a bulk e-mail sender.

I feel that diversity of opinion helps lead to greater understanding. If you don't like a certain practice, don't engage in it. If the client isn't being mislead, then all approaches deserve a fair hearing at an industry conference.

[ihelpyou]

LOL That does not deserve a comment from me.

Others can chip in. We have had this debate toooo many times. Your view of the world is very odd. Your view of "others" is very odd as well.

[peter_d]

We have indeed been here before - I recognise an Ad Hominem attack when I see one :)

[ihelpyou]

There is a Doctor's conference. A few Doc's are invited to speak because of their great records and high acclaims and vast knowledge.

One Doc is chosen to speak. The others don't believe he is qualified at all and also know he has "hurt" patients in the past, not helped them.

Do you think those Doc's would allow this to happen?

Or it's a case in your opinion that anyone listening to this Doctor is on his own. It does not matter what techniques or practices he uses. We all should have a diverse and vast number of techiques to choose from, right?

[projectphp]

Do we all agree that any speaker at such a high profile conference as SES is would be given LOTS of credibility if they are "ASKED" to speak at SES
No, we don't all agree, because you haven't defined what "credibility" is. I don't think spamming is a good thing, but that doesn't change the fact that the option exists, and individuals have the right to access any product which is legal and for which no misleading or false advertising is conducted. So a very good spammer is ideal for a conference, as they have credibility within their own sphere.

I don't know how the three speakers will go in that section (I only know Barry from forums, and Mr Bolger from the odd post here and there), but surely diversity is good? We live in a democracy (Doug, Pete and Myself) in which freedom of speach is assurred (1st ammendment in America). Taking that right away for people's own good is a common theme, and one we should all fight hard to ensure never happens.

So, the only reason someone could and should be stopped froim speaking is if it was shown that they broke the law, and the only relevant law would be misleading advertising.

In Australia, we have the Trade Practises Act 1974 (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/tpa1974149/). The most relevant is section 53:( http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/tpa1974149/s53.html) These 5 points are the most relevant points in section 53 are:
False or misleading representations
A corporation shall not, in trade or commerce, in connexion with the supply or possible supply of goods or services or in connexion with the promotion by any means of the supply or use of goods or services:

(bb) falsely represent that a particular person has agreed to acquire goods or services;
(c) represent that goods or services have sponsorship, approval, performance characteristics, accessories, uses or benefits they do not have;
(d) represent that the corporation has a sponsorship, approval or affiliation it does not have;
(e) make a false or misleading representation with respect to the price of goods or services;
(f) make a false or misleading representation concerning the need for any goods or services;
(my emphasis added)

So long as an advertiser doesn't misrepresent who they are affiliated with, need for or cost, or claim people have agreed to buy it that haven't, a company is legally sound.

I understand Alan's comments with regard spam being false advertising, and that may be an appropriate argument to deem a program misleading, but unless a government agency takes up such a case, it must be assummed that such programmes are legal, and that their proprietors are free to promote and discuss them.

Which returns me to credibility. How do we define this? Surely a person with lots of clients and a standing in the SEO community, whatever that is, can and should speak @ a conference. If you are going to offer differeing opinion, a very good spammer is better to get than a very bad one.

In many ways, that is exactly what such conferences are for. Not to protect the innocent, but to instead inform and educate them, so tha they can make their own informed decisions.

It is up to those that oppose such view points to reason with people as to why such an approach is not the most effective, ethical or appropriate approach. How effective any side is in presenting the arguments for their case is oft times far more important than what they actually say. That is why great leaders are always charismatic, as to convince the populace, you need to connect with them.

[ihelpyou]

Amazing.

Amazing even you projectphp don't see a problem with TopPile gaining brand new clients only because they are a speaker.

No words can aptly express my opinion.

You all see no problems with letting any and all website owners think that spamming is just damn fine. Amazing.

Not to mention that spamming the search engines is extremely unethical in every way imaginable.

[ihelpyou]

hmm. The same people who stuck up for SEMPO and the allowing of spammers as members are the same people who stick up for the SES conference and allowing spammers as speakers.

Do we see a patern here? :)

Ask the hundreds of websites who have got burnt by TopPile if that company should be a speaker.

It's attitudes like that which have ruled our industry since the beginning, and why our industry has been frowned upon for soooo damn long.

[ihelpyou]

Which returns me to credibility. How do we define this? Surely a person with lots of clients and a standing in the SEO community, whatever that is, can and should speak @ a conference. If you are going to offer differeing opinion, a very good spammer is better to get than a very bad one.
Now you are saying there are good spammers and bad spammers? LOL With that, you are saying Paddy is a good spammer? Ya got to be pulling my leg and the legs of every member in here, right?

So, you don't know what being given credibility means? I don't understand your statement at all.

[Kal]

Originally posted by ihelpyou
hmm. The same people who stuck up for SEMPO and the allowing of spammers as members are the same people who stick up for the SES conference and allowing spammers as speakers.
You're wrong there Doug. I personally don't see an advantage to joining SEMPO yet, for reasons we've all discussed before. However I do understand why SES Conferences offer a variety of speakers and SEM approaches, regardless of "black hat" or "white hat" methodologies used. I still think that's a buyer beware issue and a typical trade show approach.

[ihelpyou]

Again, not the point.

After Paddy speaks, what happens? Does he not sell his services to members who walk up and talk to him? Don't they walk up because in their eyes he is "the expert"? And is given credibility by SES because he is a speaker?

That's the point.

Is that still buyer beware? Or is the fact that the SES conference giving a spammer a big boost the issue? It's not a trade show at all. The speakers are chosen by people who are supposedly the leaders of our industry. That's far different than any trade show I have been to.

If that were my point, then these forums would never warn members about techniques and spammers, etc. We would simply say "you are on your own".

Allowing an Unprofessional to speak at any kind of conference, in any kind of industry is Unprofessional practices by the conference itself. I guess if you all see Paddy as being "Professional", then I can see your points.

This ain't about giving conference attendies different viewpoints. Trust me; Paddy is NOT going to speak about the techniques he uses in his business. Not. This has zero to do with allowing differing viewpoints and diversity.

This is only about a well known conference giving a boost of credibility in the eyes of attendies, and only doing so because that spammer was chosen by "our" leaders to be a speaker. Nothing to do with a different viewpoint at all.

[Kal]

Originally posted by ihelpyou
Again, not the point.

After Paddy speaks, what happens? Does he not sell his services to members who walk up and talk to him? Don't they walk up because in their eyes he is "the expert"? And is given credibility by SES because he is a speaker? Nope. The sale of his services depends on how he deals direct with customers. His credibility and professionalism are determined via his actions and the quality of the service he provides to customers, NOT by his appearance at some conference. Apparently some of his customers are not happy with the services he provided, but even if those customers found him via an SES Conference, you must agree that the conference organizers cannot be held responsible for those services.

An industry conference cannot possibly start vetting people who want to be involved based on the opinions of *some* in the industry. That's when true bias comes into play and the motivations of organizers can be publicly questioned. If all approaches are discussed and the audience is alerted to all potential scenarios, (and you have to admit that most sessions lean towards avoiding spamdexing) then they are better prepared to make a purchasing decision.

<added>Professionalism is subjective. Just because you and I have a different view to Paddy of what it means to be "professional" doesn't mean he shouldn't be able to speak at a conference related to the industry he works in</added>

[ihelpyou]

Wow Kal, I could not disagree with you anymore than I do now.

You think it's strictly up to the consumer to understand all that is involved with the issues. I am shocked. So the SES conference just should not ever be responsible for giving any and all people the chance to gain credibility.

[ihelpyou]

His credibility and professionalism are determined via his actions and the quality of the service he provides to customers, NOT by his appearance at some conference.
In who's eyes? I'm not talking about what I or you think.

I AM talking about the credibility the conference is giving him in the eyes of the potential Client. Many forms of credibility are given waaaay ahead of the actual hiring. The SES conference is one of those times that truly gives any speaker added credibility for the simple fact they are a speaker.

This seems real simple to me. Why is this so hard to understand?

[polarmate]

I don't think I agree with you, Kal. Before I even heard about SEO, my boss did his research on SEO and SEO firms. He picked a company. They set up hyphenated domains in frames that mirrored the content of our web site; the noframes tags had keyword stuffed junk. They hosted these domains on their own servers and redirected the pages to our web site. We paid exorbitant rates for their services. Before we hired them we used to be at about #33. They dropped us like a rock to #100. I found out about this only when the deal soured.

When I first heard about them, my only fear was that they would break my code. But they never ONCE got access to my code or my web sites. They worked on their own servers on which they hosted these trash domains.

This company came out with flying colors in the MarketingSherpa Guide a few years ago. (Subsequently it has had bad feedback from its clients.) In that guide, they said they did not host domains on their own servers and replied in the negative to purchasing domains with keywords in it, purchasing multiple domains, multiple mirror pages, doorway pages or creating SE specific pages. They never explained nor informed our company that they would be employing the very tactics that they said they do not.

I see and understand where Doug is coming from. You need to be on the outside as a customer to really understand the impact that something like this can have. In our case, it was more direct - it was inclusion of the company in a reputed Buyer's Guide to SEO Firms. If the SES is a shopping ground for SEOs then yes, someone who takes the podium is without doubt being given a boost in the eyes of a potential customer.
The sale of his services depends on how he deals direct with customers. His credibility and professionalism are determined via his actions and the quality of the service he provides to customers, NOT by his appearance at some conference. In our case, the sales talk was very glib and convincing. We found out about the quality of the service only when they failed to deliver the results. When the deal soured, my boss asked for all materials developed to be returned to us. That is when I found out about the hyphenated-keyword domains. That is when I saw the crapload of HTML and content that we could have been sued for by our suppliers. That is when I decided I needed to know what SEO is and here I am.

[Kal]

Doug I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye on this issue and that's ok. Don't get tied up in knots trying to make me come around to your way of thinking, I DO understand your POV, I just don't agree with it. Remember, different points of view are a good thing ;)

One final point. In my opinion, a conference slot does not automatically equal an endorsement of the business practices used by the speaker. It may increase their public profile, but their credibility is ultimately determined by their service.

[Kal]

Originally posted by polarmate
This company came out with flying colors in the MarketingSherpa Guide a few years ago. (Subsequently it has had bad feedback from its clients.) In that guide, they said they did not host domains on their own servers and replied in the negative to purchasing domains with keywords in it, purchasing multiple domains, multiple mirror pages, doorway pages or creating SE specific pages. They never explained nor informed our company that they would be employing the very tactics that they said they do not. Well that's a different issue. The MS Guide purported to rate SEO firms based on methodologies and was published as a way to help companies avoid firms that used risky methods. SES has never represented itself as promoting one method over another or one company over another. The MS Guide did *exactly* that.

Originally posted by polarmate
In our case, the sales talk was very glib and convincing. We found out about the quality of the service only when they failed to deliver the results. Well I'm sorry that happened and it makes me angry that there are still firms like that around. I agree that the perceived credibility of that firm as outlined in the MS Guide probably unfairly influenced your decision. But I still think that it is the purchaser's responsibility to thoroughly research a potential provider and protect themselves by way of a guarantee or detailed contract. If a supplier calls a potential customer and lies about the service they are going to provide, you can hardly blame the phone company :)

[peter_d]

Doug, you're associating credibility with "following the search engine guidelines". That is because you have decided that is what credibility means.

However, imagine there is businesses XYZ. XYZ are very agressive players. They compete within the law, but they pull no punches and certainly won't be dictated to by third-parties. This type of client may not be well served by a gentle supplier. They want bottom line results, and if the supplier doesn't provide them, they will sue.

In other words, they don't care about search engine guidelines. Their notion of credibility is bottom line results. You may not like these clients, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

[polarmate]

If a supplier calls a potential customer and lies about the service they are going to provide, you can hardly blame the phone company
I really don't see how a phone line can be used as an analogy to a highly respected industry specific conference where the speakers are hand-picked.
They compete within the law...<snip>...Their notion of credibility is bottom line results.Surely results such as these (http://www.ihelpyouservices.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5851&perpage=20&pagenumber=2#post142081) are not bottom-line results :rolleyes:

[peter_d]

Surely results such as these are not bottom-line results

Anecdotal.

I'm not addressing any company specifically, I'm suggesting that diverse views deserve a hearing and help you reach greater understanding, even if all they do is help clarify your own position.

Shutting people up and calling them names isn't particularly constructive. Calling a reputable SE conference into disrepute is rather extreme and smacks of ulterior motive.

<edit>grammar</edit>

[projectphp]

You think it's strictly up to the consumer to understand all that is involved with the issues.
Doug, a people go to conferences specifically to understand all the issues involved. That is the goal. We aren't talking about people who can use ignorance as a defence, or shouldn't know the consequences of their actions. After a conference, people should be, at the very least, somewhat educated about all the issues. If not, it isn't the spammers who are to blame, but rather the conference for being ineffective.

An industry conference cannot possibly start vetting people who want to be involved based on the opinions of *some* in the industry. That's when true bias comes into play and the motivations of organizers can be publicly questioned.
100% agree. The issue isn't perceived credibility, it is about eductaional standards. If you censor who gets in based on the few, which few? Theoretically, the spammers could be the few that win, as tehre are probably as many of them as teh other.

Also, I like Kal's quote:
...doesn't mean he shouldn't be able to speak at a conference related to the industry he works in
I mean, if Paddy isn't in SEM, and therefore qualifiued to speak, what does he do?

Now, none of any of this means you should agree with the strategies employed. It doesn't mean you have to agree with what is said. It simply means he gets to speak, and others get to speak. And they can speak about why TopPile's strategies are not appropriate, the risks, why they don't do them etc etc.

If you keep posting in this thread Doug, you will certainly be doing your bit to push your perspective, and educate people in your own way. You just have to accept that your perspective wont be everyboby's,.

[Kal]

We're going around in circles. Some of us may not like Paddy's methods. Our definition of credibility or professionalism is almost certainly different to his. Personally, I think his methods place the long term viability of his client's sites at risk. But does that mean he should be prevented from speaking at a conference in case he misrepresents himself? No.

That is not our decision to make and not the conference organizer's either. As long as the material he presents is vetted by the organizers as being relevant to and suitable for the audience, whatever he discusses outside of his speaking slot is his business and ultimately his responsibility.

[Kal]

Originally posted by projectphp
Now, none of any of this means you should agree with the strategies employed. It doesn't mean you have to agree with what is said. It simply means he gets to speak, and others get to speak. Exactly :thumb:

[peter_d]

Agreed.

And who wouldn't like to see a debate between Paddy Bolger,
Mike Grehan, Barry Lloyd and another chap on the days agenda, Alan Perkins?

If you weren't aware of the issues after hearing that lot, then you really weren't paying attention :)

[projectphp]

If you weren't aware of the issues after hearing that lot, then you really weren't paying attention
If you spend all day at the pub instead of talks, cause you think the conference is an excuse to have fun, and sign someone simply cause they were there, aint much anyone can do to help you.

[Kal]

Originally posted by projectphp
If you spend all day at the pub Or you could simply combine fun and education via a WMW Pub Conference :cool:

[Daminc]

Originally posted by Kal
Some of us may not like Paddy's methods. Our definition of credibility or professionalism is almost certainly different to his. Personally, I think his methods place the long term viability of his client's sites at risk. But does that mean he should be prevented from speaking at a conference in case he misrepresents himself? No.
I agree with this also.

It's also a question of making an informed desision based on all the facts, not just the ones you agree with.

Example:

5 different types of government are trying to set up in a new land:

[list=1]
Communism
Democracy
Dictatorship
Anachy
Theocracy
[/list=1]

Out of these 5 there is only one that I agree with but that doesn't mean I wouldn't listen to what they all have to say before I voted.

Another thing I found which may be of interest to everyone here is:
Freedom of Speech (http://www.scit.wlv.ac.uk/~in7504/Freedom_of_Speech.htm ) (with regards to the Internet).

[ihelpyou]

Wow.

You all love to give the SES conference a free pass for "ASKING and CHOOSING" a well known and the biggest and baddest spammer on the planet to speak at the "Organic SEO" session. He was ASKED to speak by OUR leaders at the highest profile conference our industry has.

Ya gotta be kidding me?

Why are there posts about free speech and such? Nothing to do with it. Why are there posts talking about different viewpoints? Nothing to do with viewpoints OR debates of any kind at the conference. Paddy is representing our SEO industry by talking about organic SEO.

He is seen as one of our industry leaders about SEO.

That's fine by you all, right?

[ihelpyou]

I personally think this is more about defending the SES conference and 'their' right to ask anyone to speak they wish than the actual 'who' is speaking.

And that is very true. The SES conference has every right in the world to ask anyone they want to ask to be a speaker. That still does not make it "right" or make it "Professional".

Both SEMPO and SES are extremely UnProfessional in their actions. No one can tell me otherwise. Sorry.


Peter: The SES conference is not about debating the issues and spam. No session is going to debate that at all. Barry, Paddy, and Alan will not sit there and give different viewpoints on whether to spam or not to spam. It's not like that.

Paddy will be on his best behavior, and he will give a good speech. This is not the point so get off that issue. That's not the issue at all.

You know, I think the bottom line is that I am always putting myself in the shoes of that new webmaster/owner who doesn't even really know what spam is.

I put myself into that room at SES and sit there and listen to someone speaking on SEO. I try to imagine what I would think about that speaker, knowing full well that he was "CHOSEN" to speak by the leaders of the conference. If I were looking for a SEO, I would certainly want to talk to that speaker after the session. Afterall, he must be an industry leader because the SES conference asked him to speak, right?

Don't you all see where I am coming from?

I think most people can only look at things from a 'conference' perspective, and only see the fact they want a diverse range of speakers. No one seems to want to acknowledge the actual website owner who may be looking to hire someone to help them.

[Daminc]

Don't you all see where I am coming from?
I do see where you are coming from it's just that I try and give the web site owners a bit of credit to do good research before they hire a company to do seo work for them.

If they don't research properly then they will learn the hard way by getting burnt. That's the hard fact of business. Because this industry is self-regulating then it relies on negative feedback to weed out the chaff (which includes allowing all people to tote their services).

[ihelpyou]

Nope. Not my point at all.

I guess many don't realize the speakers at a SES conference gain new clients because they are speakers. They gain them right at the conference. Why should a website owner do research about the SEO who is speaking when that SEO has been 'invited' to speak and is therefore assumed that the research has already been done by our industry leaders of SES on that SEO who is speaking?

[Daminc]

No one seems to want to acknowledge the actual website owner who may be looking to hire someone to help them.
I thought you were concerned that web site owners may believe that Paddy was a 'leader' in our field, due to his profile being 'elevated' at conferences, and may suffer as a consequence.

[ihelpyou]

If I move to a new area and need to find a Doctor, I hear about a Doctor's conference on the particular kind of Doctor I am looking for. I sit and listen to the Doc's who are the main speakers.

I simply assume those Doc's are the industry's best of the best, right? Why should I do any research when the industry has already very much said that 'this' Doc is very good because we have asked him to speak at the "Doctor's" conference? I also am already looking "up" to this speaker because he is a speaker. It's simply human nature to do that.

It's human nature to assume that the highest profile conference on the search engines is going to invite the best of the best to speak. This has nothing to do with giving any consumer more credit or the consumer doing his research. It's simply a fact of life. It's human nature.

[ihelpyou]

Yes Daminc, That is my whole point. It's human nature by default.

[Daminc]

Why should a website owner do research about the SEO who is speaking when that SEO has been 'invited' to speak and is therefore assumed that the research has already been done by our industry leaders of SES on that SEO who is speaking?
People shouldn't 'assume' anything. I've never assumed you were a professional seo. I read your posts, look at your examples, read what others say about you and form a conclusion that you're a professional seo.
It's simply a fact of life. It's human nature.
Maybe I'm just weird then :confused:

[ihelpyou]

Okay, let me try this then.

Who out there reading this thread would have invited TopPile to speak at the SES conference if "you" were in charge of setting up the speakers?

Anyone?

Out of the thousands of SEO's qualified to speak at the most high profile search engine marketing conference on the planet, who out there would have invited him of all the possibilities of speakers to choose from? Keep in mind TopPile is speaking in the session that is called "Organic SEO".

Anyone?

If not, why?

Could one reason be that anyone who speaks is viewed as an industry leader by the everyday JoeWebsite owner?

[peter_d]

Anyone?

Yep.

You want speakers vetted according to your approach. It should occur to you that not everyone in the SEM world agrees with your singular view. As such, the conference offers a diverse range of views.

Give the audience more credit. Most don't need to be saved from themselves :)

[polarmate]

As such, the conference offers a diverse range of views. I have no doubt that that is the reason for its success.

Would you say that speakers (like Paddy Bolger) present their view as represented, say, by the Salsa product? Now, that would be diverse. ;) From what I have gleaned, techniques promoted by Salsa are not discussed by Paddy Bolger. Certainly, not in his sessions. Why is that? Kind of really obvious, no?? :rolleyes:

[peter_d]

SEM is not all about technique. It would be a rather dull conference if it was, no?

Most people I talk to are concerned with performance and roi issues.

[JohnC]

Been trying to stay out of it, I couldn't help myself...

People shouldn't 'assume' anything.True, but some ALWAYS will. :)

Take me for instance. I have always assumed the speakers at conventions were leaders in thier fields. (I guess I was mistaken) Why would I want to pay to listen to someone who was not a leader in their field. I can get advice from everyday Joes almost anywhere.

I am leaning towards Doug on this one.

[ihelpyou]

Take me for instance. I have always assumed the speakers at conventions were leaders in thier fields. (I guess I was mistaken)
The actual people who are trying to learn, and who might be the ones that attend SES, are the exact ones who just might assume a speaker at SES means that speaker MUST be a leader and top-notch stuff.

It will take many more John's coming forward and expressing their opinion before the SES conference will finally get it.

Thanks John.

[ihelpyou]

Peter, There ya go again talking about some kind of "views" and different 'views', etc.

Show me where I am writing about anything that a speaker might talk about at the SES conference. You absolutely know what my point is, but you keep ignoring my point to drive home your political views on things.

You now claim you would personally invite TopPile as a speaker?

We all now know where your priorities are. Thanks!

[peter_d]

You absolutely know what my point is, but you keep ignoring my point to drive home your political views on things.

I know what your point is. I just don't agree with it :)

Who are you to say that a certain audience speaker should not speak at someone elses conference simply because that person does not follow your methodology?

You now claim you would personally invite TopPile as a speaker?

I would be interested to hear them, among many. All grist for the mill.

We all now know where your priorities are. Thanks!

I like to get to the truth.

[Kal]

Originally posted by ihelpyou
The SES conference has every right in the world to ask anyone they want to ask to be a speaker. That still does not make it "right" or make it "Professional".

Both SEMPO and SES are extremely UnProfessional in their actions. No one can tell me otherwise. Sorry. As I've stated before, professionalism is subjective. Just because you or I think a certain speaker doesn't meet our definition of "professional", does that give us the right to demand they not be heard? Does that give us the right to insist that a 3rd party conference organizer prevent them from speaking? Hardly.

Originally posted by ihelpyou
I think most people can only look at things from a 'conference' perspective, and only see the fact they want a diverse range of speakers. No one seems to want to acknowledge the actual website owner who may be looking to hire someone to help them. Yes. We are discussing the conference so of course we are looking at it from a traditional conference perspective. Organizers of such a conference cannot possibly be responsible for the audience's interpretation of content presented OR for the private business deals/discussions that may occur afterward.

Any one of those speakers could rip off a client they secured at the conference, whether they use SEO tactics that meet your definition of credible or not. Any one of them could take a client's deposit and skip town or overcharge them or steal their credit card numbers or whatever! Just because they speak at an industry conference doesn't guarantee they are squeaky clean.

Conference participants should be smart enough to do due diligence on anyone they hire, regardless of how impressive their flashy powerpoint presentation was. As Peter said, they don't need saving from themselves by the likes of us.

Besides Doug, what is the alternative?? How would you propose these Conference organizers choose their speakers? Let's hear the process you think they should use instead :)

[ihelpyou]

Hundreds of qualified SEO's in the UK and Europe, and you all are defending TopPile as a speaker who was "INVITED" to speak by one of OUR industry leaders.

No problem I guess.

People should read John's post again.

[medkraft]

I wasn't going to get in on this, but these comments got me fired a little fired up today.

Doug wrote: Your view of the world is very odd. Your view of "others" is very odd as well.

Ditto mate.

Now you are saying there are good spammers and bad spammers? LOL With that, you are saying Paddy is a good spammer? Ya got to be pulling my leg and the legs of every member in here, right?

That may be because we have an understanding of how business and the real world works and know that tolerance and diversity are good in life and business. Intolerance is not.

The world is not black and white (nor is it flat) as some in the forum would like others to believe. Please open your eyes and try to look it at from a different perspective. You might actually see something you didn't see before and maybe if you're lucky learn something a long the way.

Happy Easter everyone.

[Kal]

Originally posted by ihelpyou
People should read John's post again. No, you should read my post again. I am NOT defending TopPile (my feelings about them should be pretty clear early on in this thread). I am simply defending their right to speak at a conference that represents their industry.

Still waiting for your suggestions on how you think speakers should be chosen :)

[ihelpyou]

And my answer would be:

Anyone else but TopPile.

Hundreds of qualified SEO's in the UK and Europe but TopPile is the best we can come up with?

I can do a search on Google for "UK SEO" and certainly find a great many SEO's who would love to speak.

[medkraft]

I guess many don't realize the speakers at a SES conference gain new clients because they are speakers. They gain them right at the conference. Why should a website owner do research about the SEO who is speaking when that SEO has been 'invited' to speak and is therefore assumed that the research has already been done by our industry leaders of SES on that SEO who is speaking?

Doug have you ever spoke at a conference before? Just because you're allowed the opportunity to get up on soap box at a big event doesn't guarantee a quick and easy sale. In fact, if you're a terrible speaker just the opposite is true.

I've spoken at large marketing events (1500 plus delegates) in the past. While a conference may add credibility, it doesn't guarantee work. You still have to work your butt off and be able to back up what you say with referrals and case studies. Otherwise, you might as well throw the opportunity away.

In addition, the session with Top-Pile is a round table where others will be able to debate what is said. How can this not be good for the industry.

Personally, while I know you're not interested in speaking at SES (if I remember correctly), you'd make a good candidate because of your out-spoken views. It would definitely add some spice to the conference.

I can do a search on Google for "UK SEO" and certainly find a great many SEO's who would love to speak.

That doesn't mean they would make good speakers. Speaking is an art. If you pay $1200 for a conference you don't want to hear people say Umm every few words.

[Kal]

Ok, so your speaker requirements would be "Anyone but TopPile". So any other SEOs in the world would be welcome to speak at the conference, even those that use spammy methods, but TopPile would be discriminated against because of your personal bias against them. Is that right?

[ihelpyou]

Nope.

I think a leader should be able to choose a speaker wisely. He could use a system whereby the SEO practices techniques that follow the 'actual' search engine guidelines. Those guidelines are very clearly written on the se websites for everyone to read.

Some SEO's spit at those guidelines. Those are the types that don't need to be seen as a leader of our industry. TopPile 'SPITS" at those guidelines. Always has. Always will. That ain't the kind of Leader we need for our industry.

Obviously, the SES conference disagrees with me as they continue to "INVITE" these type of spammers as speakers.

This can and never will be a good thing. People like John in the post above automatically assume by default that a speaker is a leader. How do some people know any differently? It's the responsibility of a "Leader" to make sure the best foot is put forward. Greed should not be a part of the equation.

I could care less about the bottom line of Jupiter Media who puts on the SES conference. The conference itself should take some responsibility for it's actions. If it refuses to do so, something needs to be done about it. I'm here to make sure that "something" gets done. I'm very sick of appeasing spammers. Extremely sick of it. I don't know why it is soooo hard to find a Professional SEO to speak. It seems like it would be very easy to do. Weeding out any SEO who blatantly and admittedly spams the system should never be considered.

Spammers cheat the system. Spammers are UnProfessional. Spammers hide things so a browser does not see what the search engine spiders see. That is what is called "deception".

One of our leaders who chooses the SES conference speakers cannot find ANY other SEO to speak on "Organic SEO?"

[JohnC]

I am betting Mr. Bolger is sitting at his desk laughing hysterically at the tension that is happening here due to his speaking engagement. If he gets no business at all out of the SES conferences, this probably makes the whole thing worthwhile to him.

I don’t think most people here would disagree that this man’s company practices are wrong. I don’t think most people here would give this man’s company his or her credit card. I don’t think most people here would give an endorsement to that man or company for any reason. This thread has gotten so far from its original topic that I think the original point is being lost….

Top-Pile is not a company most people here would recommend doing business with.

I think most of you currently in this discussion have agreed to that. The current topic seems to be why does the SES conference do business with them. Sure they have the right to ask whom ever they want. But we have to ask ourselves; “If the industry is so against this man’s company practices, why do they justify his existence by giving him a public platform?” I don’t believe that is good for the industry as a whole, but it can be nothing but good for Mr. Bolger. It does not sound right to me, but that’s just my opinion.

[ihelpyou]

Yes why? That is the most important question that no one wants to directly answer.

[ihelpyou]

I have a solution. It's similar to what SEMPO is doing, although it still is Not good enough on their website.

Before Each session, the moderator of that session gives a short "disclaimer". He/she could say something like this:

The chairperson has chosen these speakers because of their knowledge. In no way is this a recommendation to hire these speakers. In no way does SES or Jupiter Media say that these speakers are industry leaders. You must do your research first before you hire anyone to help you.

That could be a way to satisfy EVERYONE, including me. If they insist on using a bad Spammer as a speaker, then they should have a disclaimer before "each" session starts. I don't think that is anything they cannot accomplish. I don't think it's unreasonable. They would avoid anyone being mislead.

[ihelpyou]

Thinking further; I would think Jupiter Media would want some kind of disclaimer before each session.

A site owner like John could have paid $1000 for a ticket to SES. He just might hire one of the speakers to help with his website. And sure, he might hire them strickly on the idea that a speaker must be a leader and highly recommended since the industry's leading conference is letting this speaker speak.

All the sudden, poor John's site is banned or penalized. He traces it back to something that this speaker did to his site or for his site. Who does John go after? Why of course, John just might go after the company with the deepest pockets; namely Jupiter Media. Afterall, John hired this company because they were a speaker.

So you see, having the moderator give a disclaimer at the start of each session can only be a good thing for all parties involved. A good thing for the attendees. A good thing for Jupiter Media as they would be protected. A good thing as well because it would get people like Doug Heil off their backs. :)

[JohnC]

Great... Now SES isn't going to sell me a ticket to the Fall show. It was going to be my first one. :)

[ihelpyou]

John, You can certainly go. Just remember that speakers are not an endorsement for their services. That does mean the speakers are not good speakers or that they don't have good knowledge. It just means you still have to research anyone you might hire.

The idea of a disclaimer is becoming more and more appealing to me as the minutes go by.

[ihelpyou]

Even further;

This disclaimer before any session should be extended to any and all "SEM conferences" held in the world.

The industry has NO set standards for companies. No standards like standards set by other industries. Because of this, I would think each and every conference owner would want some kind of disclaimer before 'each' speech or session. They are only protecting themselves in an industry where no standards for companies have to be meant. The only standards we have are what the search engines say is right and wrong. Nothing set for the actual companies themselves. We all choose to follow the search engine guidelines, or we don't choose to follow them. That's quite different than most industry's out there. Even 'marketing' associations have 'standards'.

Conferences need to do this. They need to have this disclaimer to protect themselves from lawsuits, and to protect each and every "PAID" attendee to the conference. And to completely know that their own conference is not misleading the very people they are trying to teach.

[peter_d]

I think you're getting methodology confused with performance.

The view espoused by Doug is that if you don't follow a narrow interpretation of search engine guidelines (Google's in particular) then you are a non-performer. That is a fallacious argument.

With regard to giving credibility to speakers....

Would I recommend company X? I don't know, I don't know enough about them or anything about the imaginary client who is asking the question. The imaginary client's needs might be "I want a way to reduce my ppc spend, but increase traffic levels by 200% within one month. I'm comfortable with risk". You wouldn't recommend a supplier who gave a rank report as a sole measurement of success, now would you?

Also, how do you know that other speakers don't do exactly what TP does? Perhaps TP are open about it, where others aren't. I'm not saying that's the case, but if they never talk methodology, or say one thing at the conference and do another in practice, then how would you, or the conference organiser, ever know?

[ihelpyou]

:green:

You are a piece of work peter-d. I'm not saying a good piece or bad piece. Just a piece.

I guess you did not read my disclaimer idea?

[ihelpyou]

btw, I did not say anything about being a non-performer. If you spam, then you don't abide by the search engine guidelines. Therefore, you are UnProfessional. Those are the only guidelines we have to go by. Why not follow them? Would you rather cheat the system? Would you rather deceive all search engine users including the search engines themselves?

Besides, you have stated a few times you don't do SEO at all. I'm not sure why you even bother to post in this thread? Or is it because you post in here when you can take the opposite point of view from Doug?

[peter_d]

This is what the conference is about:

http://www.jupiterevents.com/sew/winter04/sessions.html

If you hold a conference, I guess you can add your disclaimer.

[ihelpyou]

Now you are also against a disclaimer? Why would that be?

I made your link a 'live' one FYI.

[peter_d]

If you spam, then you don't abide by the search engine guidelines. Therefore, you are UnProfessional. Those are the only guidelines we have to go by. Why not follow them? Would you rather cheat the system? Would you rather deceive all search engine users including the search engines themselves?

I could argue that all SEO is "spam" (actually, I know one prominent web design company who thinks that way) because it isn't endorsed by the search engines. He thinks all SEO's are unprofessional. Is he right? Depends on one's point of view.

Besides, you have stated a few times you don't do SEO at all.

I do SEO. It's hardly difficult, is it. It's part of what I do, which could be more broadly categorised as SEM.

I'm not sure why you even bother to post in this thread? Or is it because you post in here when you can take the opposite point of view from Doug?

If you say something I agree with, then I'll agree with you.

[ihelpyou]

I could argue that all SEO is "spam" (actually, I know one prominent web design company who thinks that way) because it isn't endorsed by the search engines.
hmm. I'm pretty sure Google and others do say there are "good" SEO's.

http://www.google.com/webmasters/seo.html

You should read the first paragraph. Other engines might not write it on their website, but all engines do believe that a SEO can help a website and also help the search engines.

If you say something I agree with, then I'll agree with you.
Oh really? I'm sure you have read many posts by me in here, but you did not post to agree, right? How about the good idea of ALL conferences giving a disclaimer before each session or speech? Don't you feel that would be extremely helpful for the conference owner and the conference attendees?

If not, why not?

[peter_d]

They don't endorse SEO's.

Overture endorse partners, but to my knowledge, no other engine does. Google say that some things that SEO's do can be useful. Which is true. But anyone who reads that document and thinks it's a ringing endorsement of SEO needs their head read.

I think it's fair to say that the search engines would prefer you paid them money. I'd prefer them to rank all my sites at #1 within the next hour, but no matter how many times I publish "guidelines for search engines" on my site demanding that they rank my sites accordingly, they never comply :) Guess we have different agendas.

Disclaimer: You'd have to ask the conference organiser why or why not. Personally, I don't think it's of much use. Ever read Microsofts disclaimer?

[ihelpyou]

Of course they don't endorse any.
SEO is an abbreviation for "search engine optimizer." Many SEOs provide useful services for website owners, from writing copy to giving advice on site architecture and helping to find relevant directories to which a site can be submitted. However, there are a few unethical SEOs who have given the industry a black eye through their overly aggressive marketing efforts and their attempts to unfairly manipulate search engine results.
Please note; "given the industry a black eye" and "unfairly manipulate search engine results"

They also call them "unethical SEO's"

Now, back to TopPile:

Tell me again why you don't think it's a good idea or of 'much use' for all conferences to have a disclaimer in regards to the speakers they choose?

[peter_d]

Tell me again why you don't think it's a good idea or of 'much use' for all conferences to have a disclaimer in regards to the speakers they choose?

Being an adult, I don't need to be baby sat.

I have a little sideline in commercial property. If you want to see a pool of sharks, get into that game. Nevertheless, they have associations, disclaimers, professional qualifications and standards, and all sorts of other legitimate sounding guff.

Means nothing to me. The only person I listen to in contractual negotiations is my lawyer.

A disclaimer won't prevent people being taken for a ride.

[medkraft]

How about the good idea of ALL conferences giving a disclaimer before each session or speech? Don't you feel that would be extremely helpful for the conference owner and the conference attendees?

How is this going to help a conference or the attendee. People aren't stupid. They don't need to hear the same message six times a day especially when they just paid $1000 plus to attend.

Think about what you're asking and then think again. It doesn't make any sense which is why no one here agrees with you. Simply put, it's not a good idea.

[ihelpyou]

No one? How about the ones who are not posting?

Not a good idea, huh? Tell us why please. What would you be afraid of? Ask John above if it would be a good idea. He's one who posted that he assumed ALL speakers were leaders.
How is this going to help a conference or the attendee?
I answered that when I posted my idea. Read the posts above if you missed it.

[sanity]

Originally posted by ihelpyou
Allowing an Unprofessional to speak at any kind of conference, in any kind of industry is Unprofessional practices by the conference itself.
Unprofessional by whose definfition? Yours? You can't shove your definfitions and opinions down other people's throats. Most people can think, and decide, for themselves. :)

[medkraft]

No one? How about the ones who are not posting?

Huh! For everyone not posting, feel free to chime in.

When you've:

1) Spoken at a large conference
2) Organised a conference of any kind
3) Attended a large conference

then maybe you'll have a better idea that your idea is just not feasible or plausable for that matter.

[Blue]

Doug is a champion and those of you whom are disagreeing with him apparently don't have much moral fiber, or don't care to see the forest through the trees. Doug obviously sees the "bigger picture" and is willing to do something about it.

I believe in freedom of speech.

I believe, at the most basic level, there is simply "right" and "wrong". We ALL know the difference, with the exception of those with medical conditions that don't allow them to see it.

I believe that there are either those that are part of the problem or those that are part of the solution.

Anyone who cares to see the world, or any part of it, turn into a better place will be part of the solution. That means taking a stand, at whatever cost, to protect those without the knowledge to know the difference, or without the wits to know the difference (and there is no line of protection between those two), with respect to any injustice no matter how large or small.

There are plenty of instances where just because something is not deemed illegal it should not be allowed to go on.

By doing nothing to stop the injustices, you simply are feeding the fire, and are therefore part of the problem.

You folks should decide where you stand with respect to how you want the world to be, for yourself and for your children, even on the issues that only affect few, as that at least is a step in the right direction.

Keep on fighting the good fight Doug! :cheers:

[medkraft]

Doug is a champion and those of you whom are disagreeing with him apparently don't have much moral fiber, or don't care to see the forest through the trees. Doug obviously sees the "bigger picture" and is willing to do something about it.

So let me get this straight. Because we disagree with the Champion we have no moral fiber or can't see the big picture. How absolutely absurd.

Those of us who are debating with the Champion are arguing on the grounds of diversity and tolerance. In doing so, we're not saying that we agree with the methods they use (nor are we defaming them in the process because we don't agree). In fact, we're looking through the trees and around the city in an attempt to understand why they exist in the first place and accepting that they exist for a reason. After all, we're all fighting the same battles to win new business and have to deal with the same bad apples.

Being a Champion means treating others with respect whether you agree or disagree with what they do and accepting that others may have views that differ from your own. Being a Champion is showing tolerance for others and their opinions. Being a Champion is refusing to resort to name calling regardless of how right you believe you are. Being a Champion is leading by example in a professional manner that is respected by all your peers.

Fight the good fight, but be please show some tolerance and respect in the process. Otherwise, you may find that your fight defeats the cause.

I believe in freedom of speech.

Excellent. I'll dring to that. :cheers:

[Kal]

I actually agree with the idea of a disclaimer. But only if it is stated once, at the beginning of the conference and in the handout material. It might serve as a reminder to attendees that they need to be careful choosing a provider in this industry full of sharks. But I doubt Jupiter would go for it.

[ihelpyou]

But only if it is stated once, at the beginning of the conference and in the handout material. It might serve as a reminder to attendees that they need to be careful choosing a provider in this industry full of sharks.
I agree with that. They always have a 'starting' speech or welcome of some kind at the beginning of the session day. That could be where the disclaimer is. The handout material is a place as well.

And yes medkraft, I have been to Many type conferences, and I have helped organize them and participate in them. Remember, I'm 46 years young. Experience counts for something. :)

And yes, being a Professional should mean something. It means something in every other industry, and some don't want that term in our industry. Strange stuff. I would think if Google can state on their website that some people are 'unethical", then I can state that those same people are UnProfessional. Kind of makes a lot of common sense to me. Of course, that's just me.

[Rankenstein@Home]

I think I agree with Doug on this one - present people with the facts and let them decide for themselves - nothing should be hidden.

I made a presentation to a UK government department a couple of weeks ago - it was a six hour talk and I covered all the topics. I also made it pretty clear about what the engines consider good practice to be.

These (and some other) forums got a mention. Doug, I put yours down as (and I quote) "a perfect example of a white hat SEO forum" - I also told them where some "anything goes" forums are too. Let them see the whole picture - let them understand the methods - and if the engines don't like some of those methods, be the first to say so.

I think SEO is definitely an area where 'caveat emptor' should be the motto. If the client wants something unethical in SEO terms, it's not like they'll be going to jail, is it? Their site may be banned, and that can hit them badly in the pocket, but they won't be done for 'Aggravated Cloaking' and get five years in The Big House.

I think it's a bit more of a grey area than Doug suggests, but I broadly agree with the sentiments behind his diatribes - I don't like spam at all, but spam is often in the eye of the beholder.

[Steve Sardell]

Huh! For everyone not posting, feel free to chime in.

When you've:

1) Spoken at a large conference
2) Organised a conference of any kind
3) Attended a large conference

then maybe you'll have a better idea that your idea is just not feasible or plausable for that matter

Since I fit all the above characteristics perhaps I should "chime in."

Initially, by virtue of being allowed to speak, any speaker at any major authoritative conference is given instant credibility. Due to position he/she is automatically deemed by attendees to be an expert, if not an expert then they would not or should not be behind the podium. It is the duty of the conference organizer to select the best and most knowledgable speakers possible. Normally, people attend conferences to learn from the best and pay good money to hear the best available speaker. In this situation Jupiter Media gives every speaker a sterling recommendation.

At this conference not all attending are experts themselves, but rather many are new to the field of SEM. If Jupiter is not willing to stand by what its speakers proclaim then it should issue a disclaimer.

If it truly is a roundtable discussion, hopefully the harmful tactics will be dispelled and the good absorbed. Unfortunately, there are always some looking for short cuts or short term fixes and some who will take every word as the truth. It is the event organizers task to insure the best posssible information is disseminated, and if not the best then to disavow it.

To take it to the absurd, does anyone think the AMA would allow a butcher to speak at a conference on plastic surgery methods?

[ihelpyou]

I actually think the discussion on SEMPO applies to this discussion as well.

http://www.ihelpyouservices.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=138428&highlight=professional#post138428

The same principals apply to both.

[ihelpyou]

To answer Sanity's question and the question of a few others, read this thread:

http://www.ihelpyouservices.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=77936&highlight=professional#post77936

We have discussed ethics and Professionalism MANY times in here. Do a search. All of my answers in all other threads still apply to this thread.

Of course there are Professional SEO's and UnProfessional SEO's.

Please tell the world if you think TopPile is Professional. Please tell the world if you think a program that generates thousands of spam pages with one click is Professional. Tell the world please. :)

[Bernard]

Nice post Molson/Steve.

I have no personal experience with TopPile/Paddy, but from what I have read, there should be plenty of their former clients out there who should be furious at this situation. The day that they become vocal with their displeasure is the day that Jupiter will take notice IMO.

[ihelpyou]

Yes. I highly doubt the type of clients who TopPile has even know this ses conference exists, or that these forums exist.

Some of you say something like this:

"A SEO is a Professional as long as he/she explains all the risks involved with the techniques used".

Many problems with that thinking.

First; you are assuming a client knows exactly how to judge and gage those risks. You assume a client is armed with all the knowledge necessary to make a good decision on that technique. How many clients have you all talked to that know the first thing about spam or it's ramifications?

Do you honestly believe a Professional is born as long as he explains the risks of his services? Come on now. Shouldn't a Professional actually teach that client as to the ethical ways of making their site the best it can be? That's a Professional. It's not enough to simply explain the risks, and then proceed to perform that technique despite the risks involved. That's UnProfessional in every way.

[sanity]

Originally posted by ihelpyou
To answer Sanity's question and the question of a few others, read this thread:

http://www.ihelpyouservices.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=77936&highlight=professional#post77936

We have discussed ethics and Professionalism MANY times in here. Do a search. All of my answers in all other threads still apply to this thread.

Of course there are Professional SEO's and UnProfessional SEO's.

Doug I know your thougts on this. My point is it's your opinion not anyone elses. Who are you to tell me what I should think is professional or unprofessional. I'm old enough to decide for myself.

[ihelpyou]

My point is it's your opinion not anyone elses.
huh? Not anyone else's opinion either? Not.

You are very able to give your opinion in here. Please give it then. Do you think of TopPile as Professional or don't you?

Or, do you not have an opinion?

[jeep]

Originally posted by sanity
Doug I know your thougts on this. My point is it's your opinion not anyone elses. Who are you to tell me what I should think is professional or unprofessional. I'm old enough to decide for myself.

One ringee dingee. Hi Sanity just testing my cookies and the ability to post.

Well that work okay.

"Who are you to tell me what I should think is professional or unprofessional. I'm old enough to decide for myself."

I think the definition of "profession" does. A group of people who
self manage, self regulate themselves to achieve the title "profession" or "professional." These groups have standards, norms, codes etc . One example is the society of mechanical engineers. Engineering companies will cut each others throats in competition. The engineers though will follow their professional standards and say make all their drawings and schematics using common drawing standards. This is so all companies can read them without error, even competitors. Keeps bridges and skyscapers from falling down.

So... the SEO "profession" is telling you how to think. Websites and links that serve no purpose for humans only to get a higher listing are unprofessional. One could make a pretty good argument that Doug is speaking for the SEO profession.

But being "unprofessional" may not be a negative. For example I read that it took the guy that made the Heimlich maneuver you know squeeze someone when they are choking thingie, ELEVEN YEARS to get it accepted by the medical "profession."

So stay frosty...

[sanity]

Originally posted by ihelpyou
huh? Not anyone else's opinion either? Not.

You are very able to give your opinion in here. Please give it then. Do you think of TopPile as Professional or don't you?

Or, do you not have an opinion?
I am talking about unprofessionalism. Your opinion of who is unprofessional or not is yours not mine. And whilst I am sure many agree with you many do not. So why should your definition of unprofessionalism be a yardstick by which we measure things?

As for Top Pile I don't know them enough to comment. Perhaps if I heard Paddy speak I would be more able to make an opinion. ;)

[polarmate]

Originally posted by sanity
Perhaps if I heard Paddy speak I would be more able to make an opinion. ;)
But that's just the point, Sophie. He does not speak about Salsa or how he practices SEO at conferences. At conferences, he speaks about 'Organic SEO.' You will probably form an opinion but, more likely than not, it will be the same opinion formed by anyone else who listens to him. And your that opinion does not concur with what his (ex-)client think of him. That is part of Doug's point.

If you want to know what his ex-clients think of him, ask Kal. She has heard it first hand.

[sanity]

The last part of my post was meant to be a joke. Let me qualify it now: if I'm looking for a company to do anything for me I will research that company - I'm a strong believer in "let the buyer beware". Whether that be conferences, websites, articles, references, current/past customers or whatever.

[ihelpyou]

Yes Sanity, researching a company in our industry is something that those of us who are involved know clearly that is what people should do.

The issue is however that most website owners out there in internet land do 'not' know that. If they sit and listen to a TopPile speak at the largest, most well known, most highly regarded conference in the world about search engine marketing, those people immediately form an opinion about that speaker. What is that opinion and immediate impression?

That's easy. The speaker must be a leader, and must be Professional, as if he was not, he surely would not have been asked to be a speaker, right?

You decide.

[peter_d]

Granted that a person standing at the podium will enjoy the validation of selection.

Tell me: Do clients hand out their credit card to the first person they see on the podium? The third person? The last person? How do they choose?

When you buy something, do you conduct research first? If you don't conduct much research, and it turns out that while the product/service was sold as described, but didn't suit your purpose, whose fault is that?

Disclaimer or not, anyone who hands money to someone just because they are standing at the podium at a conference is an idiot. It's just lucky that the boys from Nigeria (http://home.rica.net/alphae/419coal/) don't hold conferences :)

[ihelpyou]

Yes, you assume it's always the responsibility of the consumer to make sure they don't get their own site penalized or banned.

I take the other side; It's the fault of the Unprofessional SEO who does not teach that consumer the right way to build a better website. Only a Professional SEO does this, and looks to the future of that website and long-term success.

Our views of the industry are very different. You don't feel a SEO has any reponsibility to that client at all. I feel they do. You also feel a high profile conference does not have any responsibility at all to that same consumer. I feel they do. Hence, why I feel they need a disclaimer.

[peter_d]

Yes, you assume it's always the responsibility of the consumer to make sure they don't get their own site penalized or banned.

With choice comes responsibility. You are, of course, assuming that a site will be banned as a result of hiring a conference speaker. You are also assuming that is the worst thing that can happen to it.

Our views of the industry are very different. You don't feel a SEO has any reponsibility to that client at all.

<cough>You should retract that, good sir.

You also feel a high profile conference does not have any responsibility at all to that same consumer. I feel they do.

Where did I say that?

Hence, why I feel they need a disclaimer.

If you feel so strongly about it, then why not ask Danny?

[ihelpyou]

Where did I say that?
The way you post makes it certainly seem that way. Why else would you be defending the conference and the person who chooses TopPile as a speaker? That alone tells me that you don't feel the conference feels any responsibility to the people who are attending. If they did, they would be more careful when choosing the speakers.

[medkraft]

Molson wrote: To take it to the absurd, does anyone think the AMA would allow a butcher to speak at a conference on plastic surgery methods?

Of course not. But SES is not AMA. AMA operates for members. (SES does not). the AMA is a professional association (SES is not). The AMA has been around for six decades (SES has not). AMA has a responsibility to members (SES does not).

On the other hand, Jupiter operates SES, in large part, because of its popularity. The topic is hot and there's money to be made. As soon as the popularity of SEM/SEO subsides, the conferences will likely be replaced by some other hot topic (marketing to seniors via SMS, etc.). It's all part of the life cycle in the (technology) conference game.

SES and the AMA are two different beasts with different agendas.

Doug wrote: The way you post makes it certainly seem that way. Why else would you be defending the conference and the person who chooses TopPile as a speaker?

Diversity. Tolerance.

As I said above, SES is not a standards group or a professional association. It's a marketing forum pure and simple (one that probably won't be around in five years). If you understand this then it's a bit easier to understand the other side.

Doug wrote: If they sit and listen to a TopPile speak at the largest, most well known, most highly regarded conference in the world about search engine marketing, those people immediately form an opinion about that speaker. What is that opinion and immediate impression?

One has to have some faith that they also have the good sense to do some research. And if they did, I'm sure they'd be able to find enough information on the so called unprofessional SEO to make an informed decision. While I do believe clients can be lazy (which is one of the reasons they look to outsourcers in the first place), I don't believe they are all naive.

I can't speak for others, but I rarely come across clients who fail to do any research these days. In fact, most of the new projects I've landed in the past twelve months have come from those who have researched and interviewed a number of other SEO/SEM companies.

[ihelpyou]

Nice post medkraft.

You fail to acknowledge the main and most important issue however. :)

The fact is, no matter how you wish to spin things, being a speaker at such a well known and respected conference as SES, gives you a boost of credibility and gives you a sterling recommendation from both SES and Jupiter Media.

That's the thought that seems to get lost in all of this as no one wants to acknowledge it or say it's oh sooooo true. By default and by common sense, AND by human nature it's true.

[JohnC]

I hope everyone had a nice Easter Weekend.

Doug has made reference to one of my earlier posts a number of times and I stand by that post. I do want to point out that a number of people have mentioned that a person should do “Their Research” before making a decision about SEO. I agree entirely, however, I am also of the belief that 90-100% of the people (who are not in the SEO industry themselves) are attending conferences such as SES for exactly that reason, to do their research. Why come to a conference to do research? Because the conference organizers have also done research and only the best of the best should be presenting their ideas and techniques. At least that is the way it should work.

peter_d mentioned “With choice comes responsibility” in regards to the results of the SEO on their sites. In some instances I would agree, however when there is potential gross negligence such as the examples mentioned earlier in this thread, at some point it has to turn back on the SOE firm. Keeping with the medical theme of other industry examples, If a person does research and gets a couple of opinions then decide to go with Dr. A for their surgery, is it their fault that Dr. A forgets and leaves a sponge inside their body cavity? What if Dr. A does this much more frequently than any other Dr. but was able to avoid the issue at a recent conference he was speaking at? Is it still the patient’s fault for not doing better research? BTW… this happens over 1500 times a year in the US, is it entirely patient’s fault.

I am not doing SEO for hire, so all of my efforts are directed to one company and I alone am responsible for the outcome. Just a curiosity, those of you who do SEO for hire, what level of responsibility to you accept for your client’s success and failures? Have any of you ever explained a failure as “Well you didn’t do your research, so it’s your fault.”

[medkraft]

You fail to acknowledge the main and most important issue however.

Actually I haven't failed to understand the issue.

I know from experience that you still have to sell yourself to get the work. And if you can't back it up with experience then it doesn't matter how much credibility the conference infers on you, you're not going to get the job. And that's a fact.

The fact is, no matter how you wish to spin things, being a speaker at such a well known and respected conference as SES, gives you a boost of credibility and gives you a sterling recommendation from both SES and Jupiter Media.

Call it what you want. Unlike your opinion, my spin is actually based on knowledge of speaking at large conferences (as well as helping to promote them), attending SES events and having a strong understanding of how the real business world works.

[polarmate]

Have any of you ever explained a failure as “Well you didn’t do your research, so it’s your fault.”
We never hear of any failures, John.

We were told by our ex-SEO when the project crumbled that the keyword phrases were too competitive. I also forgot to mention in my earlier post that the research done by my boss did not throw up any alarm signals. The SEO company was endorsed and recommended by WPG, which is a 'trusted' product for SEOs.

My company did however accept all responsibility for the 'poor' decision. We really had no choice. We are now #1 for the same keyword phrase that was too competitive - with in-house SEO. :rolleyes:

[ihelpyou]

Unlike your opinion, my spin is actually based on knowledge of speaking at large conferences (as well as helping to promote them), attending SES events and having a strong understanding of how the real business world works.
Unlike my opinion, huh? Get your facts straight first off medkraft. You don't know anything about my life prior to 1996. Remember my friend, I ran and operated "many" retail stores and participated in quite a few conferences as a speaker and a voluntary helper. Please don't assume I don't know what I speak about, okay? I don't assume you don't know what you speak about. Afterall my friend, I am 46 years young.
I also forgot to mention in my earlier post that the research done by my boss did not throw up any alarm signals. The SEO company was endorsed and recommended by WPG, which is a 'trusted' product for SEOs.
That brings up another great point. You all say "research", but when you have LARGE conferences and LARGE well known products giving their hearty endorsements of different SEO's, it makes it kind of tough to research, don't ya think? MANY partnerships are out there in spite of what the heck kind of services are performed. It's all about the dollar and greed. Also note that MANY SEO's claim a potential client 'cannot' contact a current client because of 'privacy' issues. That bullcrap. Most clients would love to talk to others regarding the SEO. I know this is fact first hand. Do you honestly believe TopPile would give the names of their clients? I asked that guy straight up in this thread to give me the url of ONE client. Did he? Hell no. So how can you do any research on SEO's?

You decide.

You can spin