OK I give up, MSN/LS has me stumped!

[Marcia]

Hiya all!

There is just no way to tell how the Looksmart listings at MSN are ranked. It doesn't appear to be title, and with some categories it sure doesn't appear to be the description either.

Do they do full text, links, click-throughs? What DO they do? I watched one site from the first page plummet to oblivion (not one of mine). And in some other categories, MSN eShops has the entire beginning of the search taken up with individual dynamically generated pages.

Is it all determined by an algo, or are the LS listings hand-tweaked?

What determines ranking of the Directory at MSN? Is their algo similar to Ink?

TIA, Marcia

[ihelpyou]

Welcome to the forums Marcia! :hi:

Actually, you are very correct. It is a combination of all you mentioned. :)

I believe that when a site is first listing in the LS directory, it is given a certain range of keyword phrases (categories of phrases, if you will )

Then, according to the actual category it is given and the description, determines what ranks it gets. All of this info is passed on to MSN who puts their algo spin on things.

There are many things MSN looks at with things changing all the time just like regular algos. You are very right in that MSN does not seem to put much weight on the title you get from Looksmart, and to some extent, not a lot of weight on the description either.

Many, many, facets to this...

One way to increase ranks in MSN is to get placed into another category in Looksmart. Another is to request a description change. Another is to make sure your front page is optimized Before you submit it to Looksmart.

Many, many, things...

[newriver]

Kind of an interesting story, but I am not sure what it means.

I to believed, and believe that Looksmart does assign a rating to a website which can dictate how a site is ranked on Looksmart. I had paid for a listing change, and even put a note in the application asking for a ranking based upon my sites utter superiority to the other sites in the category...lol.

Anyway, I got the title and description change, and even went from a virtual nothing ranking, to an excellent ranking in Looksmart. (the title and description had no fewer or more KW's in it)

I do beleive that an editor helped our ranking for Looksmart based on this experience. The wierd thing is that it never changed our ranking for MSN, in fact we dropped from 30 to 33 when MSN updated.

Does anybody firmly beleive that LS editors do assign something to a site that translates into an excellent ranking on MSN?

[MakeMeTop]

Hmm. Interesting theory on having additional categories to boost MSN rankings, Doug. Seems to make sense. Have you tried this in the past? If so, I might give it a go.

[ihelpyou]

Oh yes. I firmly believe the LS editors Can and do boost MSN ranks. I have seen it time and time again.

And yes. More categories do help with MSN as well.

The biggest thing I have found is that LS will give boosts based on the quality of a site and based on Who is submitting. If my client submits directly, there is NO way he/she will get a better rank in MSN than if I submitted it. This is saying everything is the same, the title and the description both. A fact.

[Marcia]

I am wondering if it is the homepage that's submitted for additonal categories, or if it can be another index page of a /directory/ or if it can just be an interior content page.

If I have it straight, I believe it's $149 for additional categories for the homepage itself. But $299 to add other pages for other category listings?

It wouldn't make sense to submit other pages for twice the money unless the entire page was used to determine the ranking.

Thing is, if it's not determined by an algo, and if a LS editor can give rankings a boost or hand tweak, there can potentially be favoritism shown.

What bothered me in the category with all those pages for MSN eshops - each was a dynamic doorway type page, nothing unique, all the same with one item each and guess who the actual vendor was - a major Fortune 500 department store which I will not name for legal reasons for the safety of the forum.

It could be then, that nobody stands a chance in a category like that because the deck is stacked.

I have a few additional categories to submit for on a certain site, but I tried Inktomi paid first, and with a coupld there's no need to do the LS because the pages are right in the top listings. With a couple more there are a lot of directory listings, so I'll need to. But it's really important to know what to do before spending the client's money on it and getting zonked by the editors at LS in favor of some high rollers.

[MakeMeTop]

I'll give it a try and see what happens. I fully agree that LS pass forward some kind of 'rating' code to MSN based on site quality. Who submits it also makes sense and explains a couple of things I've seen after taking over sites and asking for description changes.

I've also always done very well for my clients on LS listings. Never thought about the 'keep our bigger customers happy' element ;)

[ihelpyou]

Hi Marcia!
I am wondering if it is the homepage that's submitted for additonal categories, or if it can be another index page of a /directory/ or if it can just be an interior content page.
Any page at all that is currently in the LS directory can pay the $149 and be put into a second, third, or fourth category. You simply keep paying the money.

Also, as long as a page has it's own content, whether it be a front page, directory, or regular html page, it can be submitted to LS in one or more categories.


>>>added. Remember that up to 5 pages per site can be submitted into the directory. After that, you have to go to their other program thingy.

[ihelpyou]

Like night and day between Yahoo and Looksmart. It's almost like LS purposely tries to be completely different in every way.

Don't know about others, but I'll take the LS way anyday. :)

[Sharon & Roy]

Good Evening Forum-Mates,

On a related note, can anyone give us some statistics, either for your own sites or your client's sites, on how well/much MSN sends you referrals compared to the other search sites such as Yahoo, Google, Alta Vista, etc.

We are wishing to know if they rank like 1st or last or where in between for referrals sent.

Current stats that we have seen have been quite varied to say the least, and we thought that you all would put things into a better perspective for us, thank you!

[ihelpyou]

Today my stats show:

Google 46%
MSN 31%... includes both LS results and Ink results
then all the rest.

[Blue]

1) google
2) yahoo
3) lycos
4) msn
5) alta vista
6) hot bot

[Marcia]

>night and day between Yahoo and Looksmart.

Too true Doug, especially with recent Yahoo changes. Optimization prior to Yahoo submission is an absolute MUST now, and at first glance it's not hard to figure out..

Well, for the site I've got to do the additional LS submissions for, for the keywords that have a few directory listings, I think where I'm top 3 or 5 with Ink listings its a waste to add that category. I think deciding which categories to do an additional page for and which to get an additional new $299 listing for will depend on the number of directory listings.

Also, a few of the keywords are totally spammed up in the Ink listings, so I won't do any more than an Ink paid for those. It's $15 and if I decide, I can change to another page if I like. I like that flexibility. After the next Ink pages get indexed I'll have to do an analysis.

BUT just to make sure, I'll optimize the pages before doing anything with LS just to make sure. I've always targeted Google, and what surprised me with the ones I did last month is that they're about the same now with Google & Ink.

I suppose it's a good idea to optimize the pages for Ink before the LS submission, in the absence of any other indications.

Thanks, guys!

[Marcia]

>Google 46%
>MSN 31%... includes both LS results and Ink results

There's a different scenario when the LS results don't come into play. And very important - it depends on what the product or service is. Different demographics.

One client was #1 on every single search engine around, but made a living from Google and Yahoo.

People can and do make a living from just MSN and AOL. It's a matter of knowing what you're doing with the optimization and knowing the market so you know who to target. It will always vary with the particular type of site.

[ihelpyou]

Very true Marcia. I personally simply make sure a client ranks well in Google and has a good LS listing. After that, the other engines seem to fall into place.

Amazing that WISEnut seems to follow Google in many ways.

[ihelpyou]

Marcia, .. one other point that many seem to overlook:

Just because a site may target terms that may not show up in MSN as LS listings does not mean that site should not be submitted to LS. LS is a VERY good link to get for a site. The long term benefits from it are huge. Google deems a link from LS as very important. I see it time and time again. This is what I stress to my clients even over the fact that they could see visitors from MSN as well.

[Marcia]

Doug, the particular site I'm researching LookSmart for now does have a listing, it's additional listings and search phrases I'm looking at. It was not, as you mentioned, optimized when first built, prior to submission. It's a matter of choosing which terms to submit additional pages for, and which to do the $149 extra for.

Thanks for all the info, it's much appreciated!

Marcia

[ihelpyou]

OH. In that case, it is good you research before deciding. Once a site is in, anything extra should be thought out...... as I knew you did anyway. :)

[JuniorHarris]

Google, Yahoogle, and MSN are tops for us!~ :up:

Several insightful posts by Marcia!~ :thumb:

I would quote the text, but then I'd just be re-posting what she wrote!~ ;)