Search engines get "Gatored"

[robertclough]

Source: News.com

http://news.com.com/2100-1023-980572.html

Snippet:
Search Scout, launched in December, triggers a pop-under window when Gator members search on a site such as Google and Yahoo. The window lists search results tied to keywords purchased through competing search services.

[Alan Perkins]

Good work, Robert!

I copied this from the original news forum thread (http://www.ihelpyouservices.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6517) because it has special implications to PPC.For its part, Overture acknowledged that it is testing a relationship with Gator on its search-related pop-unders, but the company said it does not comment on tests. It did say that it's always looking at new distribution partners.

Pisaris-Henderson said that FindWhat, a publicly traded company, has a limited test running with Gator on its pop-unders, but he said that Overture is providing the bulk of the results. He noted that the company is mindful of infringing on the intellectual-property rights of Web sites.Be aware, then, that Overture and FindWhat are running tests with Gator. More about Gator (http://directory.google.com/Top/Society/Issues/Business/Allegedly_Unethical_Firms/Gator/)

[ihelpyou]

I'd love to see a Yahoo/Google lawsuit against Gator. Gator would be put down and out!

[Dan0]

I don't know about that, Doug. It doesn't seem any different from the "are you sure?" price comparison plug-ins, etc. They aren't changing the way that Yahoo or Google's search results are displayed. There are no yellow links being laid on top of your site.

Let's say you lost your mind and installed Gator...
You search for "foo" on Google, and the software that *you* installed makes a pop-under window appear on *your* browser based on what *you* typed in, showing someone else's search results for "foo."

It's not like they're stopping anyone from searching Google, or seeing Google's results.

[ihelpyou]

Gator is infecting all parts of 'search' and all parts of the internet. They must be stopped. Not to mention the ways they download the stuff into your computer and then you cannot uninstall it without a phd in computer engineering.

[Dan0]

I'm not saying that I don't want Gator to go away, but a lawsuit over pop-under windows will have no legs. In our society, you have the right to do really stupid stuff, including installing Gator on your computer.

Believe it or not, some people *knowingly* install TopText because they think it would be really swell to have helpful yellow links in their browser.

[Advisor]

I am sickened by this. Overture doesn't make enough money?

Alan, why did you leave Lycos out. You said Overture and FindWhat, but the article said Lycos also.

I'm writing about this in today's newsletter. I also emailed Tom W. from Lycos for a quote.

Dan, it would be one thing if most people willingly installed Gator because they wanted the price-check service, or whatever. Fact of the matter is that Gator secretly installs itself on your computer in most cases, despite one's best efforts to keep it off.

:barf+:

Jill

[Dan0]

I will repeat: I agree that they must be stopped. They're evil.

What I said was that Google and Yahoo have no legal basis to stop them.

If anyone is going to stop them, it will have to be user/victims or government agencies. Or, God forbid, the market.

[Advisor]

Ahh...I getcha!

I couldn't believe I found Gator again in my registry the other day when I ran spybot. It's like lice. Impossible to get rid of!

[Alan Perkins]

Originally posted by Advisor
Alan, why did you leave Lycos out. You said Overture and FindWhat, but the article said Lycos also.
Because of this:Tom Wilde, global manager of search services for Terra Lycos, said that the company sponsored the Gator search results much the way it might purchase a banner ad, except that query listings are more targeted and effective.The way I read that, Terra Lycos themselves were sponsoring Gator, not putting third parties' advertisements on Gator like Overture and FindWhat are trialling.

This is the PPC forum, and I wanted people to be aware that if they were an Overture or FindWhat advertiser, Gator could be a distribution channel for them.

[Mertu]

There could be a legal basis, depending on how you would classify pop-ups/unders.

Most pop-ups/unders are generated in the OnLoad or OnExit of a page. Thus they could be considered an extension of that page or the design. Gator is generating its own pop-unders that apparently are activated by specific web pages they have no direct control or ownership of (such as Google search pages).

A publishing equivalent might be a magazine... Most have those little cards that fall out of the magazine: the printed version of pop-ups/pop-under (but more useful since they make handy bookmarks :) ).

If someone were to somehow sneak their own inserts into a magazine between its publication and delivery, there would definitely be an actionable case.

There's also the aspect that it is potentially providing a competing service. The search engines include PPC ads of one sort or another. Gator comes along with its own window providing comepting results based on a search done at a specific website--potentially stealing revenue from that site.

Aside from the actionable issue, there's also the FTC warning from awhile back. Not only does Gator probably not say that the links are paid adverts, if I remember correctly, they don't even say who's providing this list. The last thing I would imagine the PPC players would want would be getting the search engines to want the government to get involved.

Then there's the danger of ticking off existing relationships--I doubt if Yahoo would appreciate a list of Overture sites popping up from a Yahoo search page that Yahoo didn't get any revenue from.

[Kal]

This stinks! I've given Gator a real serve in my Blog today :1:

[Dan0]

Gator isn't the only browser plug-in that does something when "a certain page" is displayed. Such things have been around for at least 4 years, and probably longer. Some of them are even more evil than Gator.

The Google toolbar displays a link to the Google directory with a "category" button when I visit a site that's in the Google directory. Gator pops a window underneath when you search on some websites.

Everything that happens is happening on the user's computer, within the user's browser application, using software that the user installed. They're evil, but *this* is not new, and if there were any basis for a lawsuit, one would have been filed and won long ago.

These guys don't get into this stuff without getting legal advice. Do you really think that Overture and Lycos just jumped into it without checking into any issues?

If anyone is going to stop them, it will be governments (over deceptive trade practices) or users (suing over software that can't be removed). That might force them to change *some* of their practices, but it won't get rid of them.

If you want to make an analogy to magazines, it's like convincing the newsstand manager to give you the keys to the shop because you're going to wash the windows for free, then putting ads for *your* magazine right next to (actually, behind) your competitor's magazine. On page 500 of the "wash your windows for free" contract that the manager signed, it says "oh, yeah, and we get to put ads up in your store." it's evil, but it's all nice and legal.

[ihelpyou]

Gator is the type of company I would go to Redwood City to see. I would barge in to tell them what I think of them and I would gladly go to jail with my cause. They are scum. They are leaches. They prey off others web site content. If they did not have our web sites to suck off of, they would have NO product.

Look for a lawsuit with Yahoo/Google against Gator. There would be a few other large .com's in with them.

Overture, Findwhat, and Lycos are also scum for dealing with them. Period.

[Advisor]

You know what the sad thing is that I just found out today?

Apparently, Gator is becoming mainstream. Like tons of companies advertise with them. Assuming that's true, it stinks big time.

They're supposedly a part of all the big companies advertising spends...

Nobody cares that nobody wants Gator and that it installs itself mysteriously on your system. All they care about is that the idiots who have it installed by mistake actually click on the ads!

If it makes money, that's all anyone cares about. Apparently, it makes LOTS of money.

:(

[Dan0]

Let's give this the "which is more likely" test...

Scenario 1: Google, Yahoo and others spend a bunch of money suing Gator, because they know they'll be proven right after a couple years in court.

Scenario 2: Google and Yahoo are already negotiating advertising deals with Gator.

[ihelpyou]

You would have to delete Google from #2 as it would never happen.

My software has found Gator shet in my puter from time to time from when it was installed by itself along time ago. It's a never ending battle to keep it out.

Why can't the government do something about it? They should. Does anyone really think a user would install the stuff if they knew the true intentions of this scum company? No they would not. On my trip home for Xmas, my sister complained to me about her computer getting slower and slower to run. It was very bad. I installed some software to take a peek at what all she had in it. She had many spyware programs in it including Gator. She asked me why all web sites always had popup windows come up whereever she went. She even asked me why my sites had them. I was furious.

I explained to her exactly what Gator was. She thought Gator was helping her and did not realize the damage it was doing to her computer. She was not happy. After finding all the crap installed and deleting it, her puter was running great again. It's only 6 months old and a good one.

Gator is the biggest parasite and scum on the internet. For a large .com to partner with them is outragious. Goes to show you how these large companies feel about the very people they want to get as customers...... they believe users are a piece of crap. Period.

[Dan0]

We've had customers complain to us that they couldn't use the online catalogs we build for them because they were redirected to a competitor's site when they tried to log in. It's always due to some flavor of scumware that they've decided to install. Like I said, there's a lot of stuff that's much worse than Gator.

People don't install Hotbar to get their browser messed up, they install something else to "add color to Microsoft Outlook." All of this scumware rides into your life piggy-backed on someone else's software.

Want a free DivX player - no problem, we got one for you. Oops, did we forget to mention that GAIN/Gator is being installed in the background? Almost all of the "steal some MP3s" P2P file sharing apps install one flavor of scumware or another. If somebody sues *them* it will make others think twice.

[Kal]

Well if publishers can sue Gator (http://news.com.com/2100-1023-940072.html) then search engines should be able to :thumb:.

What is the best scumware detection software everyone recommends? (Free if possible).

[Dan0]

I think they're gonna have a hard time with that one...

I like Lavasoft AdAware, which has never let me down.

[Kal]

Originally posted by Dan0
I like Lavasoft AdAware, which has never let me down. I tried lavasoft.com but it is more scumware. What is the URL please?

[Dan0]

http://www.lavasoftusa.com/

[Advisor]

AdAware misses some. Nightwing posted this one recently and it's great: http://beam.to/spybotsd Spybot Search And Destroy.

[Sharon & Roy]

Originally posted by Advisor

Apparently, Gator is becoming mainstream. Like tons of companies advertise with them. Assuming that's true, it stinks big time.

They're supposedly a part of all the big companies advertising spends...

Apparently, it makes LOTS of money.


Oh yes, they are already quite mainstream.

Gator took out a Full Page Ad in December 2002 issue of MediaPost's Media Print (Offline) Magazine < mediapost.com >

The headline reads ...


The Fortune 500's most effective online advertising?

No wonder people are talking about Gator.

"Most marketers would be wise to consider at least a test of Gator ..."
Jupiter Media Metrix

"With response rates that are consistently 20 times higher than the average banner ad and a growing network of over 25 million users, I'm not surprised that so many Fortune 500 companies are now Gator customers."
Fred Newell, author of The New Rules Of Marketing

"Highly targeted, direct Web marketing - in many ways, the original promise of the Internet."
Business 2.0

Take 2 minutes now and see Gator in action!
[We're not going to display the URL]
or call [We're not going to display the Phone Number]



So we looked at the URL posted and it reads ...



Imagine...

If you could filter through 30 million consumers and instantly identify people interested in your product category.

Then imagine if you could show them your ad:

While they are shopping across the Web.

At the moment they are thinking about your product or service.

While viewing any Web site!

This is all possible now through The Gator Corporation, the leader in behavioral marketing.


(on the next Webpage it reads)


Gator Finds Your Target Consumer By Observing Surfing Behavior

Let's say your company sells baby formula. Gator knows which consumers are viewing baby-related sites and demonstrating an interest in your category.

For example, imagine if a consumer named Gail is:

Looking for information of childbirth (a Website all about childbirth is shown ... In other words ANY Website Gail visits, even YOURS.)

Shopping for baby products (a Website about baby clothes and stuff is shown ... In other words ANY Website Gail visits, even YOURS.)

Looking for childcare tips (a Website about Health - My Daily Doctor is shown ... In other words ANY Website Gail visits, even YOURS.)

We know Gail is a target customer.


(on the next Webpage it reads)


Gator Can Display A Message While A User Is Viewing Any Site On The Web

When Gail views any baby-related site Gator can display your advertising or promotional message.

POP-UPS
Message appears in the middle of the screen

SLIDERS
Message "slides" up from the bottom of the screen

Check out Gator's rich media capabilities


(on the next Webpage it reads)


GATOR TARGETING AND RICH MEDIA CAPABILITIES ARE VIRTUALLY ENDLESS

(a Website all about childbirth is shown ... then a Flash movies pops up and says that these can play instantly with no buffering with no file size limits)

Run TV Commercials, Flash, or gifs of unlimited file size that display instantly with no delay/buffering and no Website integration required.

Sound Amazing? The Results Speak For Themselves


(on the next Webpage it reads)


FORTUNE 500 COMPANIES AND TOP AGENCIES LOVE GATOR

For over 80% of our 400+ clients, Gator is a larger source of consumer acquisition and sales than AOL, MSN, and Yahoo.

That's because the average Gator campaign generates click through rates up to 20-40 times higher than traditional banner ads.

Gator clients include over 60 Fortune 500 advertisers in each of the following categories:

Automotive
Financial Services
Entertainment
Retail
Consumer Packaged Goods
Travel


(on the next Webpage it reads)


Getting started is easy!

We can work with existing creative or can collaborate with you on something new. Find out more.

(a Web form is then provided for you to fill out)

[ihelpyou]

Disgusting Horse Crap. :barf+:

[Advisor]

It just makes me so sick. How can they get away with it!!!

There is a law suit pending, correct?

Why are they allowed to secretly install their program on any computer? Why? Why? Why???? :confused: :confused: :confused:

[chopsticks]

*ummm* OK, I guess I get to write my usual "unique perspective".

1st: Gator blows chunks. They annoyed me for a few weeks before I realized what was going on an uninstalled everything.

2nd: If "Predatory advertising" techniques are allowing potential customers to find a website (and purchase a product) that THEY, the customer, is happy with... then it's a mute point.

* The market will decide! If the consumers are buying then they are voting with their dollars. That's capitalism (don't it suck sometimes).

3rd: A lawsuit without a popular public opinion is risky. (If you lose the lawsuit you pay Gator's inflated legal fees! And, you'd exponentially increase Gator's name recognition; there is no such thing as bad publicity... especially if they WON the case against them.)

* Keep in mind that a JURY OF PEERS would be resolving this case because it would have to be CIVIL not criminal. Criminal trials are notorious for being highly restricted in order to be fair and impartial (remember the "dance" at the OJ Simpson trial?).

* If the market as a whole, i.e. consumers/computer users aren't educated enough to figure out what their computers then why assume that those same people could "see the light" when on jury duty?!? (The Gator legal team would argue the patriotic points of capitalism and all that is fine & dandy in the world; AND, the Gator legal eagles get to help select the people who would sit on the jury! They're NOT going to allow too many computer literate individuals to sit on the jury: You're dismissed juror #205834. Thank you for your time.)

---------

{ soapbox }

Here's a thought:

* Regulation / Legislation

In certain areas of America (say, Silicon Valley... from Redwood City to San Jose, CA) there lies a largely computer literate population.

If said population (and their State Representatives and Senators) got laws on the books restricting such "Predatory Advertising" then Gator would no longer to be able to argue market driven economics. :o:

Alternate strategy could be to get laws on the books that would allow "Predatory Advertising" but mandate that the computer user must be clearly instructed as to the installation of such software and that such software must have easy un-install procedures. Any violation of such legislation could be either be financially painful for Gator... or, depending on how the legislation was constructed, for "wire fraud" the executives and engineers at Gator could be put in jail.

Executive Summary: Capitalism is only "trumped" by Democracy.

Similar restrictions were implemented in Nevada against Online Pharmacies.

---------

Sooooooo, Doug (ihelpyou), instead of wishing that this company was in Redwood so you could walk in, tell them what you think (and possibly go to jail)... or Jill (Advisor) asking the Meta-Physical computer spyware meaning of life: "why"...

How about us starting a petition (that I'm sure many members of your this forum, Jill's newsletter, and our friends at Yahoo! and Google would sign) to ask for legislation?

Think Special Interest group.

If we couldn't get ONE Representatives of Silicon Valley to introduce legislation against it.... then it ain't gonna happen anywhere else in the USA! Keep in mind that introducing a bill is much different than getting it through both the House & the Senate PLUS signed into law by the Govenor.

To really resolve this issue would require more forethought than I give the average American (who would be the jury in any court case) credit for. AND, with any court case there will be appeals. Especially when Gator would be fighting for it's very survival. (Imagine temporary injuctions, and appeals all the way up to the US Supreme Court).

However, if regulation/legislation fragments the net into "micro-markets", perhaps Gator's overhead and infrastructure costs would increase to levels that are unsustainable business models.

And, if the legislation wasn't "Silicon Valley specific"... but was instead "California wide"... we will have effectively kicked the $hit out of Gator by removing the richest state in the Union's piggybank for them to rob! [Interesting fact: If California was the leave the Union it'd be the 2nd richest nation in the world; pushing Japan to #3!]

{ /soapbox }

[ihelpyou]

Very good thoughts chopsticks!

Yes, I'm all for making sure a computer user knows exactly what they are installing and knowing exactly what the spyware is going to do and how it's going to do it. If my sister had known that this crap was doing more than simply helping her 'fill out forms', she would have NEVER installed it.

Let's get this going and get this to the legislative process. I'm sure we could find thousands of people to sign some kind of petition.

[Advisor]

Alternate strategy could be to get laws on the books that would allow "Predatory Advertising" but mandate that the computer user must be clearly instructed as to the installation of such software and that such software must have easy un-install procedures. I do think that's the best route to take.

You know, I never paid much attention to the scumware issue as I didn't realize it mainstream advertisers would ever dream of using it. I'm totally flabbergasted at this, but it really makes it hit home.

Seems to me that they're actually "vandalizing" our computers, and therefore it could even be a criminal case, no?

I'd be all out for a petition or whatever, and I'd be happy to help publicize it. But I'm not interested in spearheading anything (who is? :) )

Jill

[ihelpyou]

Gator's whole business premise is that computer users are stupid. They disguise that fact by publicizing that they have sooo many advertisers who get good ROI. Nothing is said about 'how' a user is deceived. I'm very sure that we could get something passed through to Congress to make sure Gator fully discloses their business practices and let's the user know that they will receive numerous popup windows whereever they go on the internet.

We also know that something like this would affectively shut down the Gator business model as no one would download their scummy product if they knew what it was. :)

[Advisor]

It really burns me up that big businesses could care less how the software gets onto people's systems. They don't care at all. All they see is dollar signs in their eyes.

How much you wanna bet they don't install it on their own computers?

I'm tellin' ya, Gator makes LookSmart look like the most ethical company in the world!

:mad:

[foghorn]

I couldn't help but laugh at Doug's experience with scumware on his sister's computer, because I had almost the exact same thing happen - on my sister's computer.

There was a lot on her machine, and some was very clever. It actually tried to block the normal procedures for getting it off. Fortunately, ad-aware did take it off. If that hadn't worked I don't know what I would have had to do. Erase the hard drive and install the operating system and programs from scratch, I guess.

I'm not going to do this, but I think it would be a good public service for someone to start a web site and list the advertisers that use scumware. It would be interseting, and a way to get back at them, perhaps.

[Dan0]

Scumware:
http://www.scumware.com

Thiefware:
http://www.thiefware.com/
http://www.thiefware.com/thief.ads/

Stop Scum:
http://www.stopscum.com/

[rockynate]

Downloaded the SpyBot software. Thought it wouldn't find much. I had Gator on my home computer!!! I suppose my wife may have inadvertently installed it. That just irks me! I can't believe that big companies are using it. "Today's WORM is sponsored by Overture; where you see our sponsored listings whether you want to or not..."

Overture just keeps proving that they care for nothing but the buck.

[ihelpyou]

Hey Rocky, I want to make sure I'm clear about this. Overture is advertising via Gator.com ????

Is that what you are saying?

If true, I'd love for Overture to justify this fact to all of us and all of their own advertisers. I'd love to hear their take on things since they are consistantly in competition with Google, who is oh soooo much against scum companies such as Gator.

Let me know if this is what it is. Overture and Gator? Oh my.

[Advisor]

There was an article about a month ago about Overture advertising with Gator and also Lycos adverstising with them. I talked to some big shots and the answer is "everyone is doing it."

Apparently it's like mainstream to advertise with Gator. Doesn't that just make you want to puke? :barf+:

Jill

[ihelpyou]

No, it's not mainstream. Gator has a "total" of 450 advertisers. That is it. Period. It ain't mainstream.

I'll find the info on the Gator site. I started a thread here:
http://www.ihelpyouservices.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=82151#post82151