learning which thread to post to

[supine]

first of all apologies to Hope, I seem to have really got up her nose somehow, I thought I was doing the right thing by going to what I thought was the right thread after reading the discussion on changes to the layout of the forums and what topics belong where. I am relatively new to the forum and have found previous advice really useful at helping filter out helpfull bits from the overload of info and sales pitches out there.
anyway which thread would be best to go to for info on the site title tag and related issues?

[Advisor]

Hey Supine, and welcome!

I tried to reply to your post about the & character in the Meta description tag, but apparently that thread was closed.

I would not use the & symbol at all because it's not something that is read correctly in HTML code. It's possible it could mess up the spiders. If you want to say and, spell it out.

Good luck!

Jill

[Spider Man]

Hehe..so did I. & is & copy ; in html (remove the spaces, just there so it doesn't show an & sign). copyright signs are & copy ;. Avoid both in title and description. Thought it'd be fun to have a list of ampersand victims (http://www.google.com/search?q=%26amp%3B) :D Plus it's a good illustration of the point.

[Sharon & Roy]

Originally posted by supine

hi does anyone know if is it ok to use "&" for "and" in description tags?

Hello supine,

Yes, it is ok to use "&" for "and" in description tags.

Some engines, like Google.com and WiseNut.com do not index/use description tags, so to them it is not relevant.

Also, just for your information, it is also okay to use them in the HTML Title Tag and even in your page/file names.

For example, the following are perfectly correct to use, but keep in mind that the & is considered a Stop/Common Word (http://www.google.com/help/basics.html) at both Google.com and WiseNut.com and we would assume the same for many other engines as well.

So although they are ok to use, to search for them is useless.


<TITLE>Arts & Entertainment</TITLE>

domain.com/arts-&-entertainment.html

[Spider Man]

Oh No! S & R what you're talking about is typing the ampersand directly into the document as & and not as it's proper code & amp ; I don't care what the big boys like about.com do, Google is clever enough to understand what you've done but some of the smaller search engines will follow the _standards_ and "&" will confuse them. Just a couple of quotes on the standards:

The ampersand character (&) and the left and right angle bracket (< and >) may appear in their literal form only when used as markup delimiters, or within comments, processing instructions, or marked sections. If they are needed in the text, they must be represented using the strings "& amp ;", "& lt ;", and "& gt ;".

Some "entity names" you should use are & amp ; for ampersands (&) used as literal characters in your text, so they don't get interpreted as part of a character entity code, and & lt ; and & gt ; for the less-than (<) and greater-than (>) signs, so they don't get interpreted as part of HTML tags

and to quote Jill earlier:

It's possible it could mess up the spiders. If you want to say and, spell it out.

100% right. We're not all huge and can't afford to miss out on visitors, you want the right code which the maximum amount of spiders and search engines can interpret. Why break the standards and risk missing out on smaller spider listings for the sake of two letters. Type "and".

And this bit

Also, just for your information, it is also okay to use them in the HTML Title Tag and even in your page/file names.

page/file names. I can't say NO strongly enough here. I'm gonna stomp my feet and have a tantrum..NO..No..No..No.Noooooo! "&" is used as a field seperator in GET CGI queries. Plenty of potential for confusion. Don't assume a search engine's going to encode your url for you and thus handle this. Absolutely no need for it.

Down with ampersands!

This was a public service announcement from the Party for the Elimination of Ampersands :p

[Advisor]

You go, Chris!

I agree completely. Proper HTML is a must. Do not use those characters in your tags. It's just not worth it.

Jill

[highman]

I spend a lot of time removing such characters from query strings to 'please' spiders

right on chris, excellent public service announcement!

[manwah]

While I agree with Chris and Jill that ampersands must be avoided if at all possible, I don't believe you will necessarily be punished for using them in a title or description tag if used carefully (using the full code & amp ; - not just the & on its own).

The only time I can think of having no option but to use ampersands is if you are a branded organisation (like at&t or texas a&m where it is pretty much an integral part of their identity) or for use in targeted common phrases (can really only think of q&a at the moment - there may be others).

If you must use these characters the best thing to do is to search for example websites and see what happens when others use them (the two organisations named above are pretty good examples).

And although I never really thought of it that way before, the point that Chris made about keeping it out of directory structures and filenames is a very valid one...

M

[ihelpyou]

Actually, I cannot think of ANY reason at all where a site would use it in a title. If a business name has it, simply do not put the name in the title. If the name is in the content, the site will come up anyway if searched on.

No reason to use in a Url either.

[manwah]

This is where I would probably come to cross purposes with you Doug (with the greatest respect! :)).

Remember that the search engines tend to use the title of your page as the main results listing. If someone types in at&t (sorry to go back to them) the typical user experience will lead them to expect to see the name at&t appearing in the search results.

If your title only read 'The premier communications company in America', with a description following on then this could lead on to slight confusion (have you tried reading some of googles snippets to make sense of them ;)).

Ok, not necessarily a big thing, but remember you are trying to create a good surfing experience for the user and make it as easy for them as possible. Any slight confusion caused by your listing automatically degrades that experience and could start you off on the wrong foot with your customer.

This argument is fairly hypothetical but if you happen to be stuck with a brand like that (and fairly well positioned within your particular market), surely it is better to keep up with the branding than to ignore it altogether?

Any constructive criticism of this train of thought would be more than welcome...

M

[ihelpyou]

Good point, but I do not believe in the business name being in the title of a page. AT&T should be able to get ranked high just from the fact they are AT&T, not because it was in the title. The title should be used for your good keyword phrases. The body of the page is where it is at and where the business name will be, and hence, why the site will be ranked. Just like Google is doing more of and what Wisenut is doing now,...taking the Whole entirety of the page to get ranks.

Further, the ampersand sign is simply not worth the risk.

[Advisor]

If you are a company, such as AT&T that people definitely will be searching for by name, then I think it should be in the title. But most of the companies we all work for are not of that type. Most are not so well-known by name. I usually recommend putting the company name in the Meta description. However, putting it at the end of the Title tag would also be fine in most cases.

And if you do need to use the ampersand such as in AT&T's case, they should do it using the proper html version of it, as Chris pointed out.

Jill

[Sharon & Roy]

Originally posted by

Oh No! S & R what you're talking about is typing the ampersand directly into the document as & and not as it's proper code & amp ; I don't care what the big boys like about.com do, Google is clever enough to understand what you've done but some of the smaller search engines will follow the _standards_ and "&" will confuse them.

Hi Chris,

Thank you for your terrific feedback! Our research is primarily oriented for Google so we were not aware that the smaller search engines are not clever enough to understand.

---

Now, for the record, if we understand you correctly, you are saying that only some of the smaller search engines are not clever enough to understand, right?

We did some quick research and found that these are the larger clever search engines who do understand ... (FYI, our search was not all inclusive of the major/larger search engines.)

Google (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&newwindow=1&q=Corpus+Christi+Arts+%26+Entertainment&btnG=Google+Search) WiseNut (http://www.wisenut.com/search/query.dll?q=%22Corpus+Christi+Arts+%26+Entertainment%22) Alta Vista (http://www.altavista.com/sites/search/web?q=Corpus+Christi+Arts+%26+Entertainment) HotBot (http://hotbot.lycos.com/?MT=%22Corpus+Christi+Arts+%26+Entertainment%22&SQ=1&TR=10146&x=29&y=6) Lycos (http://lycospro.lycos.com/srchpro/?aloc=next_advwebsites&first=41&lpv=1&query=arts%26crafts&t=all&type=advwebsites&page=5) Fast (http://www.alltheweb.com/search?cat=web&lang=any&query=Corpus+Christi+Arts+%26+Entertainment&phrase=on) Direct Hit (http://www.directhit.com/search.asp?qry=Corpus+Christi+Arts+%26+Entertainment)

[supine]

Blimey, certainly started some debate!
Thanks eveyone for your views and advise, the term I was actually thinking about is B&B as in bed and breakfast, particularly in the description tag. Does that narrow down the terms of this thread?
Thanks again

[manwah]

First let me make myself clear on the point that I am not an advocate of using ampersands, just that I feel in some instances that they can be justified (I feel like sticking a disclaimer in all of my posts!).

Using a globally identifiable entity such as at&t was possibly a mistake when I was describing the use of the ampersand. Taking it to a local level, say you have Bob & Son, a furniture maker in the Orange County area that have been established for 60 years. They are well known in their particular region and have used Bob & Son on all stationary, catalogues and even on their delivery vehicles and now want to have a web presence. Again that would be a case for putting the ampersand character in the title field (ok maybe not the meta description as that is intended for the search engines only and not the user and I would not actually optimise for the phrase itself).

Anyway, this is not answering Supines question :)

Supine - I knew there was another commonly used phrase which used an ampersand.

I would say that it would be worth putting in b&b into your website (wordtracker shows that it does generate some traffic), but generally speaking I would target the phrase bed and breakfast as it apparently generates far more (all figures taken from wordtracker - please don't sue me if they're wrong!).

I am a firm believer in phrase recognition as opposed to proximity searches so I would personally recommend that you include the whole phrase 'bed and breakfast', but I have no first hand experience on this so maybe others will be able to help out more.

What I would definitely recommend is that you also target the region, therefore use something like 'new york city bed and breakfast nyc' or 'bed and breakfast uk'. This will bring in much better targeted traffic.

Yikes, ok sorry for blathering on for so long, and I'm sure my arguments are about to be blown clean out of the water, but I think it's a discussion worth having ;)

M

[Sharon & Roy]

the term I was actually thinking about is B&B as in bed and breakfast, particularly in the description tag.

We say, that would be just fine, perfect in fact.

supine, please keep in mind that the words in your description tag do not give your page any boost in the rankings and for some engines, like Google,com and WiseNut.com, they don't even index them at all.

Does that narrow down the terms of this thread?

Upon some research, we believe you have an excellent opportunity to rank really high for that term when you create what we refer to as a Locality Page. You can read more about it here (http://www.ihelpyouservices.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=7999#post7999).

For example, we suggest a similar page for your locality that has an HTML Title Tag and URL as follows ...

<TITLE>B&B Boston Massachusetts 02205 617-471-1111</TITLE>
URL --> http://www.b-b-boston.com/b&b/

... or ...

<TITLE>Boston Massachusetts B&B 02205 617-471-1111</TITLE>
URL --> http://www.boston-b-b.com/b&b/

NOTE: You can just leave out the directory name of b&b and change it to b-b if you are concerned about the smaller search engines who don't understand the "&" in the URLs. But we will be quick to also mention that as far as Google and WiseNut (and maybe several other major search engines, that we are not yet aware of) are concerned, your page will receive a boost in the rankings when folks search for B&B and you have named your page b&b.html instead of b-b.html (the same is true for naming directories and/or subdomains)

Further research shows that according to WordTracker you can expect 604 searches per day for b&b across the major search engines compared to only 3 searches per day for b-b.

Also according to WordTracker you can expect more searches to be done like this ...

B&B City/State/Country Name

... Than like this ...

City/State/Country Name B&B

So then the following would be preferred for optimum results ...

<TITLE>B&B Boston Massachusetts 02205 617-471-1111</TITLE>
URL --> http://www.b-b-boston.com/b&b/

[Advisor]

You don't have to leave out the ampersand and say B-B, just use the proper html code for the ampersand and you'll be all set.

I wouldn't recommend putting your phone number and zip code in your title, however, as you'll be wasting space that could be used for another keyphrase to be found with. No one will be searching for your site via your phone number, and the Title tag should be reserved for keyphrases that people will be searching for your site with. It would be a shame to waste that precious space with things that people won't be searching on. The title tag is given more weight than just about anything in all of the search engines.

Jill

[supine]

thanks again everybody, I am really enjoying following this lively exchange especially, because as a new seo I am having differences of opinion with the office manager who wants site titles kept "pure" for database purposes - what do we think is more important?
eg "Centennial Parkview" rather than "Centennial Parkview Hotel, Bondi, Australia"
most of what I am working on is under construction, but urls will be forthcoming for comment eventually

[Advisor]

You've absolutely GOT to put the Bondi Australia part in there if you want to be found in the engines. No question!

Jill

[supine]

that is just what I thought, otherwise the title is totally wasted really, as I am talking about travel related sites and services here I think we must try to include common search terms, especially location and type of service or business

[manwah]

Not really adding anything to what Jill said, but yes - definitely put the region in your title. This is the one area where most non-seo type people tend to trip up on, but it really is about the single most important element in your page.

The number of people who still leave the title of their page as 'Untitled Document' is quite worrying. Especially if you consider the amount of time they spent designing the rest of their site...

M

[supine]

:rolleyes: thought so!
Will keep you updated as to how it all works out
ta

[ihelpyou]

Yes. Stick to your guns supine. Most upper management and teckies, etc truly have no clue about the search engines and are only interested in making things easier for themselves. They fail miserably in how to get the site noticed by anyone and only realize later that they have no visitors.

[Sharon & Roy]

Originally posted by supine

what do we think is more important?
eg "Centennial Parkview" rather than "Centennial Parkview Hotel, Bondi, Australia"

Hi supine,

Here is what we think is more important and using the HTML Title format below for your Locality Page ... < http://www.your-domain.com/b&b/ > ... you should easily get your page into the top 10 (if not at the #1 spot) for the search term ... B&B Bondi Australia - In fact you may even consider the following page/file name for even a greater boost for this search term ... < http://www.your-domain.com/b&b-bondi-australia/ >

supine, when considering a domain name and/or directory or page/file names, by all means use your keywords in them and separate them with hyphens (or an underscore, etc.) and many of the major engines today (and soon all engines, we believe) will give that page a boost in the rankings.

This is not actually based on anyone from any of the search engines saying so publicaly, but from our extensive research we have seen that Google.com and WiseNut.com place a great deal of weight on the domain name and also on the directory and page names, but more weight is attributed to the domain name. Therefore by all means select a keyword rich domain name. We are of the opinion that both Google and WiseNut give the domain name (not the directory or file name) just a shade less weight than the HTML Title Tag if not just as much. Again this is merely based upon or own research and not that we have conversed with any high ranking officials at Google or WiseNut.


<TITLE>B&B Bondi Australia 61-2-9300-0911 Centennial Parkview Hotel</TITLE>


Then show the office manager the following ACTUAL (http://search.excite.com/search.gw?c=web&lk=webcrawler&onload=&s=B%26B+Bondi+Australia) search engine results when searching for ... B&B Bondi Australia ... and ask him/her which one sticks out and which they think a person might choose to call first? (We inserted your business' possible HTML Title Tag somewhere within the actual results. See if you can readily spot it when you simply glance over all the results at once. And also can you easily see what stands out and is unique to YOUR listing from all the others?)

(Here's A Clue: If all you have is just the following list of the top 25 ranked pages for the term ... B&B Bondi Australia ... and you simply wanted to check for rates and vacancies, which one would you call FIRST? Here's an even better question, which one could you even call at all?)


---------------------<><><><><>-------------------

Top 25 of about 131,800 found in Web Sites for: B&B Bondi Australia


Bed & Breakfast Sydney Australia B&B accommodation sydney

The Bondi Beach Home Page

Bondi Beach Homestay B&B

Bondi Beach Australian Tourism Links and Sydney 2000 Olympics informat...

Bondi Beach Sydney Australia

111 Bed and Breakfasts, Sydney, Australia: Bondi Beach Homestay Bed an...

Bondi Pipe Freezing Sydney Australia

Sinclairs Accommodation Group

B&B Bondi Australia 61-2-9300-1111 Centennial Parkview Hotel

Sinclairs of Burwood and Bondi Budget Accommodation for students, busi...

Bondi Beach Australia Guide

HoustonChronicle.com

Find-A-Grave By City: Bondi Beach, Australia

Bondi Intermusic Australia Pty Ltd

Welcome to fiona maclean designs bondi beach australia

A1 Lamrock Lodge The best discount Hostel in Bondi Beach

COCOON2000

Accommodation, Bondi Beach Sydney Australia - Bed & Breakfast

SET English Language Training English language tuition learning Englis...

Bondi Beachside Inn

RADIO BONDI ..Bondi FM The No 1 Radio station in Sydney 88.0FM Bondi ...

Bondi Icebergs aa

Golden Tulip Swiss Grand Hotel Bondi Beach, Sydney, Australia from Hot...

Bondi Beach accommodation, Swiss Grand Hotel Bondi Beach

Sydney Travel Bureau - Bondi And Southern Beaches Regional Guide

Psychology for those who need that little extra - AusPsych.com - S...

---------------------<><><><><>-------------------


supine, you may even get some good ideas of which keywords to focus on for your Home Page and other interior pages, as EACH page you create should have its own unique set of keywords. Also we recommend that if you are going to include your business name in the HTML Title Tag, that you only do so on your Locality Page and not on every page, as that would totally defeat your purpose for ranking higher for the other keywords you have there.

Some other SEO Tips we have for you, would be to place your most important keywords at the front of your list and to focus on word order and word proximity and to not use too many words, because the more words you use, the less weight they will be given by the search engines and the less effective they become and the lower your results will be.

Some HTML Title Tag considerations might be as follows ...

<TITLE>Bed & Breakfast Bondi Australia Hotels</TITLE>

In this example, a search for ... Australia Hotels Bondi ... will NOT produce as high a ranking as will ... Bondi Australia Hotels ... because of the word order.

So to rank highest for that term you'd need to change your HTML Title Tag to this ...

<TITLE>Australia Hotels Bondi Bed & Breakfast</TITLE>

supine, please keep in mind that our intent here is not to confuse you or to throw too many things at you to "worry" about, but to simply give you a starting point from which to begin your all important journey into the world of SEO by creating "killer" HTML Title Tags, since it is the single most important HTML Tag on your whole entire page.

Now, when considering word proximity, which is the term used to show the nearness of the keywords (used in the search term) to each other, you'd do well to keep your keywords in an order as to create highly searchable phrases.

For example, what would you think would be searched more frequently ... Australia Bed & Breakfast ... or ... Bondi Bed & Breakfast?

Well, in the above example ... Bondi Bed & Breakfast would rank higher because of word proximity and also that term would be found when searchers use the exact phrase match feature/syntax.

Also, DO NOT use commas because simply put, they are a waste of prime real estate and could be better used for an actual keyword or two, since you are only limited to a specific amount of characters as set forth by each engine. This number various from engine to engine but we recommend no more than 70 or so and to really be safe, keep them to around 55 so as to accommodate all the major engines.

These are just some very important considerations to mull over before committing to any old HTML Title Tags, as we see that are so prevalent in many of the search results we view, day in and day out.

supine, if you have any further questions on anything we have or have not mentioned here, please feel free to ask.

[Advisor]

Then show the office manager the following ACTUAL search engine results when searching for ... B&B Bondi Australia ... and ask him/her which one sticks out and which they think a person might choose to call first? Since nobody actually uses WebCrawler to search with any more, and no other search engine (that I know of) lists only the Title tag in the lists of results, S&R's logic is flawed, in my mind. In most engines, your Meta description tag will show up with your title, so it's important for this tag to have the words that you hope will entice viewers to click your listing. In Google, they don't use the Meta description tag, however, they take a "snippet" from your site that matches the user's query. So as long as your site's content uses the keyphrases that match what user's are searching for, those words will come up under your Title in Google. THAT'S what is going to make user's click. The relevancy of their search to the matches that come up.

Jill

P.S. I agree that you shouldn't use commas in your Title tag as they are a waste of space...same goes for that pesky phone number, which of course wastes WAY more space than a comma does.

[Sharon & Roy]

Originally posted by webwhiz

P.S. I agree that you shouldn't use commas in your Title tag as they are a waste of space...same goes for that pesky phone number, which of course wastes WAY more space than a comma does.

Hi Jill,

Thanks for all your input and your comments about the phone number being in the Title Tag of the Locality Page.

We think that you are not fully understanding what we are actually advocating here.

By your P.S. comment it seems that you think we are advocating to put your phone number in each and every or any HTML Title Tag, which we are not. The fact is that we are advocating to create a BRAND NEW page (That most Web Sites don't even include in a complete and detailed way that includes keywords relevent to their local area of which a local and toll free phone number are an intricate part of.) that we refer to as a Locality Page (http://www.ihelpyouservices.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=7999#post7999).

We hope to see many Web designers and SEO professionals create such a page as an additional SEO Technique aside from and never in place of all the current well known SEO Techniques, especially for those businesses who want to be found high up in the search engine rankings for their local area.

People who search for local businesses with an area code/prefix can then quickly find the businesses who have taken the initiative to provide them with such details to search for.

There seems to be a "catch 22" situation here, as we are quite certain that many more Web designers and SEOs would agree with Jill's opinion, that a phone number in the the HTML Title Tag of a Locality Page is a waste of space and pesky and therefore will determine that since "no one" is searching for their local area code/prefix in association with the business-type that it is useless to have it there in the first place, and/or convenient to see a phone number in the search results pages for businesses without having to click through to their Site to find it.

So folks will be reluctant to use such a searching technique.

But eventually we believe that a few will start to see the logic and the advantage of doing so, enough even to help us educate end users to search for local businesses by including their area code/prefix along with the type of businesses they seek.

When that begins to happen on a wider scale, those who already have their Locality Pages in place will reap even greater rewards than they are experiencing at this present time. It is simply a win-win situation for every Web Site to have such a detailed page about their local area included. Adding such a page to your already exisiting pages will NOT do any kind of harm or even have any adverse effects on the current ranking of any other pages. It can only enhance what is already there.


To illustrate further what we actually mean here, we'll refer to one of our past forum discussions (http://www.ihelpyouservices.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=4596#post4596) about the most visited pages on any Web Site and/or what visitors look for first and/or most when they visit a Web Site, especially a local one.

We said ...

In fact here is a statistic to keep in mind when designing/optimizing a Web Site. A Site Map Page is usually one of the top five most important pages folks look for and visit on any Site. Here are the five pages we advise you always include (in no particular order of importance). Make sure to place a link to these pages from your Home Page so that your visitors can instantly visit the "info" page(s) about your business they desire to know more about FIRST, before they even read one word about your products/services offered. Before your potential customers/clients will do business with you, you need to establish trust and credibility with them. Providing the following pages will start the process, without them, your potential customers/clients may never give your Site a second look.


---

1) Home Page - ( http://www.domain.com/index.html )

2) About Us Page - ( http://www.domain.com/about-us/index.html )

3) Contact Us Page - ( http://www.domain.com/contact-us/index.html )

4) Site Map Page - ( http://www.domain.com/site-map/index.html )

5) Privacy Policy Page - ( http://www.domain.com/privacy-policy/index.html )

---


Now we would like to change that to include a sixth page ...


6) Locality Page - ( http://www.domain.com/locality/index.html )

... or something even more optimized to help boost your rankings like this ...

6) Locality Page - ( http://www.domain.com/business-type-city-state/ )


Anyway you look at what we are saying here, a Locality Page can be very advantageous and useful for a prospect in determining your trustability and credibility.

This page which could/should include a visual map with driving directions to the business, even for those who consider themselves to be national or global businesses, it could be advantageous on the off-chance that even a single person/company may find them via a local search and then turn into the largest paying account.

To summarize, we are advocating that once a Web designer and/or SEO professional is all done with ANY Web Site, that they just go one little step further and include a Locality Page that includes a local and/or toll free phone number in the HTML Title Tag.

All this can do is be advantageous to helping your prospects find you, especially those who will use their local area code/prefix to do so. A page like this will never hinder your other pages in any way, so why not include it, is all we are saying, even if you don't want to place the phone number in the HTML Title Tag.


Just look at the these current search results on Google and WiseNut ...

61-2-9300 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&newwindow=1&q=61-2-9300&btnG=Google+Search)
B&B 61-2-9300 (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=B%26B+61%2D2%2D9300)

61-2-9300 (http://www.wisenut.com/search/query.dll?q=61-2-9300)
B&B 61-2-9300 (http://www.wisenut.com/search/query.dll?q=B%26B+61-2-9300)


It is quite obvious to us that supine can get a top ranking if not a #1 ranking for those terms.

Okay, we know, we hear you saying, so what? Anyone can get a top ranking like that, but what good is it if no one is searching for it? (This is the very catch 22 type situation we mentioned earlier ... no one searches this way because no one optimizes this way ... and ... no one optimizes this way because no one searches this way)

While that could be a true statement, (that no one is searching in this particular way by including the area code/prefix in their current searches) it doesn't have to continue to be this way. We can all help to CHANGE that, if we want to that is. That is why we are advocating so very strongly that those who have the insight and the influence to get the word out about creating and optimizing Locality Pages, do just that, and soon everyone will have this very useful way of searching for businesses (local or otherwise) at their disposal if they so choose to get the most relevant results, no matter which search engine they may use. And the beneficiaries of these searches will go to those businesses who have had the foresight to include a Locality Page on their Web Site.



---

Food For Thought: Okay, let's all consider this question, as ridiculous as you may think it to be, but what if all the search engines (or even a select few) see the logic of posting this information in their help pages to aid in educating their visitors on the best way to search for local business and/or personal Web Sites?

They mention to include their area code/prefix and/or their zip code and/or their city, it's abreviation or nickname and in various combinations, etc., etc., etc. Then they also go on to mention that to narrow their searches even further, they should isolate their searches to the HTML Title Tag or to the URL (of course, only if they already have these features available). Then imagine that they go as far as saying that to really zero in on the most relevant pages, to include the search phrase "locality page" in the same manner folks do now when looking for the "about us" page or the "site map" page or the "contact page", etc.

(Now we can hear some of you laughing at this scenario, and maybe rightly so, but we ask you to please refrain from posting any negative remarks about this publicaly, like how this will never happen or how silly the whole idea seems to you, etc., thank you, as such remarks will not really do anyone in particular or the Web population as a whole any good at all. We simply have a vision of what the Web can/could be, and are simply sharing it with our peers, is all.)

In a time when our nation/world is so focused on unity, this may be a great time that we all unite and help our industry by educating each other on "how to search and find" and "how to design/optimize to be found", rather than scoffing or ridiculing one another's ideas, to accomplish this, no matter how silly they may seem at first, but with everyone's input and discussion, we are sure we can all come to some positive ways and means to create a better and more informed "search community" as a whole from the end user to the end designer/optimizer.

Now, our question is, what if the search engines did just as we mentioned above with the help pages, would you create/design/optimize a Locality Page for all your current and future Web Sites or not?


In conclusion we just want to say that we feel so very honored to be among you all and to be able to interact and express ourselves in the way that we do while discussing what we are all individually and collectively passionate about, learning and sharing the ins and outs and the good and the bad about Search Engine Optimization.

Thanks Doug for these GREAT Forums where we can all freely post our opinions and our passions!

[Advisor]

But you know what? You don't need to go to all that trouble, nor add a special locality page. Even if someone were to search by area code, for instance, simply by having your telphone number on your page would probably get your ranked highly. I do believe that the last time we had this discussion, I checked on Google for "search engine optimization 508" Which is my area code. And I do believe my site came right up there at the top. Ok, since I don't remember exactly...let me do it again...yep...I was number 2. This is my highrankings.com site which does not usually rank in the top 20 for search engine optimization in Google, at this time.

See that...no extra effort, no locality page, and best of all...no phone number in the Title tag ;) just comes up naturally...as it should.

Jill

[JuniorHarris]

Great point webwhiz...sometimes we just try to make mountains out of mole hills!~

[Sharon & Roy]

Originally posted by webwhiz

But you know what? You don't need to go to all that trouble, nor add a special locality page.

Hi Jill,

Before we reply, we're sure that you know us well enough to know that we never say anything to offend, but only to discuss, research, learn and share. So please don't ever take anything we say the "wrong" way, thanks.

In "certain" situations, you are absolutely correct in saying that you don't need to add a special Locality Page. That would be a situation of the "exception" rather than the rule.

Even if someone were to search by area code, for instance, simply by having your telphone number on your page would probably get your ranked highly.

Here again, yes, you are right in what you say, "having your telphone number on your page would probably get your ranked highly." In the case of your Web Sites (as researched and shown below) you do rank high on some engines and not at all (in the top 50) on others, so with the SEO Technique you mention, it's a hit and miss type situation at best if you are optimizing your page for ALL the search engines. On the other hand, if you are ONLY optimizing for ONE particular search engine, then from the results shown below, your SEO Technique works good enough for what you did with highrankings.com but what you did for rankwrite.com could use a similar SEO Technique to rank higher for you.

I do believe that the last time we had this discussion, I checked on Google for "search engine optimization 508" Which is my area code. And I do believe my site came right up there at the top. Ok, since I don't remember exactly...let me do it again...yep...I was number 2. This is my highrankings.com site which does not usually rank in the top 20 for search engine optimization in Google, at this time.

Yes, you do rank #2 on Google, and on ...

Alta Vista you're not listed in the top 50

Fast you're #2

Lycos you're #2

Excite you're not listed in the top 50

HotBot you're #1

WiseNut you're not listed in the top 50

Jill, what we are advocating with a Locality Page is that, although you do have EXCELLENT current rankings on some engines, on those that you don't, a Locality Page would help you tremendously in attaining a high ranking.

See that...no extra effort, no locality page

Yes, Jill, we do see that. Those are excellent results for Google, Fast, Lycos, Excite and HotBot if that is all you are interested in.

What we are saying is that a Locality Page would help your rankings on the other engines that you currently don't rank high in.

See that...no extra effort, no locality page, and best of all...no phone number in the Title tag ;) just comes up naturally...as it should.

Yes, Jill, we do see that your phone number comes up naturally in Google, but your phone number does not come up naturally in Fast, Lycos and HotBot, or for that matter in any other search engine (except WiseNut) because unlike Google (who uses "snippets" for the description), they use the "Meta Description Tag" to display their descriptions of pages.

Now that leads to us also advocating how important it is to include your phone number in your "Meta Description Tag" for those engines who use them to display your site's description.

Also, Jill, not that you necessarily need to do this, but if you were to add your phone number to your HTML Title Tag (on your Locality Page) then you would surely be in the #1 spot for which you are currently in the #2 spot (and even maybe for all other engines if you optimized for it, that is)

Jill, that statement is not so much meant for your Site as it is for our other Forum-Mates who will read this, to see that if their phone number is listed in their HTML Title Tag on their Locality Page, that it will do wonders to boost their rankings when folks search on a local level, and so that they can have their prospects call them without ever having to visit their Web Site to look for their phone number.


------

See that...no extra effort, no locality page

While that is quite true in your example for your business, since you have very few competitors (in fact, had you searched as we suggested area code/prefix) search engine optimization 508-309 (http://www.google.com/search?q=search+engine+optimization+508-309&hl=en&newwindow=1&filter=0) Google would only return 7 pages and they are yours or related to you ... highrankings.com is #1,#2,#3 and rankwrite.com is #4,#5 and seminars.internet.com/sew/sf01/jill.html is #6), but what about those businesses with LOTS of competition?

Jill, another thing we'd like to be quick to mention here is that, in your case, you are absolutely okay in your design/optimization of your current Web Site, to rank high and to be found when folks search locally with our suggested area code/prefix syntax on Google and some other engines where you have little or no competition. Therefore, we can see why you are saying to us that our suggestion of a Locality Page is not necessary for you, because for you on Google, it isn't, but we are saying, what about others, who do need a Locality Page?

From what we have just seen in the search results at Google for a local search of your business, you do NOT need to create a Locality Page for Google at this time, and with that we totally agree with you. But let's take a closer look at some other engines where you might need a Locality Page.

On Alta Vista (http://www.altavista.com/sites/search/web?q=search+engine+optimization+508-309) you're not listed in the top 50 results with either Web Site. And even if you do a search as you suggest on Alta Vista (http://www.altavista.com/sites/search/web?q=search+engine+optimization+508) your Sites are still not listed in the top 50.

On Fast (http://www.alltheweb.com/search?cat=web&lang=any&query=search+engine+optimization+508-309) highrankings.com is #1,#6,#7 and rankwrite.com is #3,#4 out of a total of 7 pages, and the other 2 pages are also related to you. (you have no competition here) - With your suggested search on Fast (http://www.alltheweb.com/search?cat=web&lang=any&query=search+engine+optimization+508) highrankings.com is #2 and rankwrite.com is not in the top 50

On Lycos (http://search.lycos.com/main/default.asp?lpv=1&loc=searchhp&query=search+engine+optimization+508-309) highrankings.com is #1,#2,#3 and rankwrite.com is #5,#6 out of a total of 7 pages, and the other 2 pages are also related to you. (you have no competition here) - With your suggested search on Lycos (http://search.lycos.com/main/default.asp?lpv=1&loc=searchhp&query=search+engine+optimization+508) highrankings.com is #2,#3,#30 and rankwrite.com is not in the top 50.

On Excite (http://search.excite.com/search.gw?c=web&search=search+engine+optimization+508-309) you're not listed in the top 50 results with either Web Site. - With your suggested search on Excite (http://search.excite.com/search.gw?c=web&s=search+engine+optimization+508) you're not listed in the top 50 results with either Web Site. (NOTE: Doug's Site freemoneyservices.com is found at #10 ... huh? lol)

On HotBot (http://hotbot.lycos.com/?MT=search+engine+optimization+508-309) highrankings.com is #1 and rankwrite.com is #2 out of a total of 2 pages (you have no competition here) - With your suggested search on HotBot (http://hotbot.lycos.com/?MT=search+engine+optimization+508) highrankings.com is #1 and rankwrite.com is #19

On WiseNut (http://www.wisenut.com/search/query.dll?q=search+engine+optimization+508-309) highrankings.com is not in the top 50 and rankwrite.com is #7 - With your suggested search on On WiseNut (http://www.wisenut.com/search/query.dll?q=search+engine+optimization+508) you're not listed in the top 50 results with either Web Site.


------

Now let's take a closer look at some other businesses in your area code that would absolutely benefit from a Locality Page.

Surely they would need to optimize a "tad" more than you are suggesting to reach the top of the rankings when there is that much competition.

For example look at these found in your area code ...

search engine optimization 508-309 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&newwindow=1&q=%22search+engine+optimization%22+508&btnG=Google+Search) - 117 pages
dentists 508 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&newwindow=1&q=dentists+508) - 7,460 pages
physicians 508 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&newwindow=1&q=physicians+508&btnG=Google+Search) - 29,900 pages
plumbers 508 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&newwindow=1&q=plumbers+508&btnG=Google+Search) - 2,130 pages
B&B 508 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&newwindow=1&q=B%26B+508&btnG=Google+Search) - 6,370 pages
new car dealers 508 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&newwindow=1&q=new+car+dealers+508&btnG=Google+Search) - 9,050 pages
bowling alley 508 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&newwindow=1&q=bowling+alley+508) - 1,610 pages
chinese restaurant 508 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&newwindow=1&q=%22chinese+restaurant%22+508&btnG=Google+Search) - 1,310 pages
italian restaurant 508 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&newwindow=1&q=%22italian+restaurant%22+508&btnG=Google+Search) - 1,260 pages
fine dining 508 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&newwindow=1&q=%22fine+dining%22+508) - 2,270 pages
restaurant 508 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&newwindow=1&q=restaurant+508) - 54,600 pages
hamburgers 508 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&newwindow=1&q=hamburgers+508&btnG=Google+Search) - 1,800 pages
pizza 508 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&newwindow=1&q=pizza+508) - 16,200 pages
car wash 508 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&newwindow=1&q=%22car+wash%22+508&btnG=Google+Search) - 2,220 pages
pet shop 508 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&newwindow=1&q=%22pet+shop%22+508&btnG=Google+Search) - 891 pages
beauty shop 508 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&newwindow=1&q=%22beauty+shop%22+508&btnG=Google+Search) - 1,050 pages
barber 508 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&newwindow=1&q=barber+508&btnG=Google+Search) - 20,000 pages
dry cleaners 508 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&newwindow=1&q=%22dry+cleaners%22+508&btnG=Google+Search) - 1,220 pages


Some Food For Thought: For you Web designers and SEO professionals:

If you are just starting your business or when business is slow for you, why not create some Locality Pages for some of your local businesses and show them how they can get some top rankings in the search engines!

We are just willing to bet that if you create a few sample Locality Pages and then get them ranked well and then "armed" with your portfolio of pages, make proposals for the various local businesses who aren't ranked very well, that you can create a top ten local presence in the search engines for them, that you're likely to end up with so much business that soon you'll need an employee or two.

We're just thinking out loud here, but just look at all those businesses above that could use a good SEO to get them some additional business from their current Web listings that may not be producing them any income at all right now. Again, just some food for thought.

[ihelpyou]

I guess my question would be... is a whole other page worth the time and space for only to get ranked on your phone number or local? How many times are phone numbers searched on? How about the number of times a keyword Plus an area code is searched on?

I am not sure it is worth it. I will stick to having my address and phone number in the body of the page and being ranked in Google. If and when Fast, Altavista, hotbot,etc, starts getting visitors and many searches, then I might think about a "locality" page.

[Spider Man]

Hi,

This thread's changed a bit! Never blink on these forums :)

I've got to say I can see the logic in everything S & R says. And I really can't fault it. I'm not really on either side of the fence on this one. However, I would say that it's probably not the most effective method and there's other things people should do first (and i've no doubt s+r have pointed this out at some point).

If I'm searching for a business that's so specific that I need to go to phone number level then I use a local directory, local search engine or heaven forbid the phonebook! The big search engines just aren't geared up for that specific a locality search, that's not their intention and it never will be. If they wanted to compile a worldwide phonebook then they could, if they wanted you to be able to restrict searches to companies in a specific area code then they could (they know what a phone number looks like, if they wanted they could pick it up right off your pages)- it would be extremely simple for them to do this. But they don't. Why? As the saying goes "You don't crack a nut with a sledge hammer". They're a web search and not a business directory.

From that paragraph you could be forgiven for thinking i'm against it...but i'm not - it'll bring in a few more visitors, I suspect you'll get far more from the local directories. On this basis I would implement it but as the last thing on the list of things to do.

I'd be curious to know what the big search engines think of the practice too. Personally I think that putting an area code in a page's title tag is a bit like me giving my birth date when somebody asks me my name. There's only so far things can be pushed.

I'm so undecided :confused:

[ihelpyou]

well Chris, when you registered here you were asked your birthday cause we all give a big "happy BDay" to you when it comes around as it is displayed at the bottom of the front page in here. :)

[Sharon & Roy]

Originally posted by ihelpyou

I guess my question would be... is a whole other page worth the time and space for only to get ranked on your phone number or local?

Doug, the answer is YES. It is absolutely worth it and seriously how much time are we talking about, 30 minutes, maybe and space, maybe 5K, like 1/2 the space/bandwidth of the average banner.

And, Doug, we never ever mentioned at any time that you should optimize your phone number to get ranked for it.

Your phone number is included in the optimized keywords so that it can be seached for as area code/prefix so in your case it would be found for a search like this ... 843-971 (other keywords) (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&newwindow=1&q=843-971) ... and not for your whole phone number.

How many times are phone numbers searched on?

Doug, we are going to say zero, well maybe once or twice, but why would anyone search on a phone number in the first place?

How about the number of times a keyword Plus an area code is searched on?

We are going to guess a lot more than you may think but a lot less than we would hope.

That is why we as SEOs and Web Designers need to get the word out to the end users a.s.a.p.

It will forever remain a "catch 22" sitaution until WE, the SEOs & Web designers make an effort to inform the end users of the BEST way to search for local businesses, but that won't do them any good until we have LOTS of Locality Pages in place and ranked well in the engines to make it worth while for them to even search that way.

So, logically speaking, who needs to START the ball rolling, the end users or SEOs/Web designers?

Well, of course the answer has to be the SEOs/Web designers, because until we fill the search engines full of pages that will be relevant to their local searches, they can search until they are blue in the face and nothing relevant will ever come forth.

I am not sure it is worth it.

Then we appreciate and respect your stand on this Doug, but we are hopeful that not all SEOs and Web designers would think this way, and that many would help to improve the search syntaxes, by informing the public and their peers at every opportunity.

I will stick to having my address and phone number in the body of the page and being ranked in Google. If and when Fast, Altavista, hotbot,etc, starts getting visitors and many searches, then I might think about a "locality" page.

That is entirely your opinion/choice and one we hope you'll never regret.

Now Doug, you know that this is not personal with us, so please don't take what we say the wrong way, thanks. We are simply commenting on your comments in light of our other Forum-Mates who will yet read this.

We just have a vision, and if you disagree with it then that is okay with us and we won't think any less of you or anyone else who doesn't agree with us or share in our vision(s). But since you are the leader here and after all this is your Forum, that we would tend to think that others may come to view your comments about our vision as a "knock" against us/it.

Now we are NOT saying that this IS the case here, but we are merely saying that it could be viewed that way by some, especially the newbies who don't know us, and so to prevent that, we are simply replying as we are. Thanks.

[JuniorHarris]

LOL!~ If you already have the phone number...then just call!~ :rolleyes:

[ihelpyou]

I am not sure someone would be niave enough to search like that without simply looking in the phone book first. :)

Tooooooooo much work for the little benefit you would receive from building a Whole new page.

A couple of searches a month? You may go ahead a build your phone number page. I will not. :)

I just did a search on alltheweb.com:
http://alltheweb.com/search?cat=web&lang=any&query=%28843%29+optimization

Just my area code and the word "optimization". Don't think I need to worry about another page for this.

Here is Google:
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=%28843%29+optimization

[Advisor]

I see no point in debating this any further. The bottom line is that S&R have some sort of vision for their locality page thingee, and they would like to promote it to others. It is my strong belief (and I believe that of many others here) that it's simply not going to happen. There are way too many other things to worry about with SEO then something that may or may not happen in the future, and/or something that will have little benefit even if it does happen.

We're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one, because all of the "facts" that you discuss on this, simply are not logical to me, for many reasons. But I just don't feel like debating each individual issue again.

Oh, and btw, S&R, you never need to say to me that what you're saying is not personal, etc. We're all adults here debating our beliefs and our ways of working. I know that you're not personally attacking me, just as I am not personally attacking you. We simply do not see eye to eye on some issues, and that's what a discussion forum is all about! In fact, if we all agreed on everything, it would be a pretty boring place to come to now, wouldn't it!

But also, I don't think you should be asking people not to disagree with you publically on this forum. Because again, that would be defeating the purpose. (Well, you can go ahead and ask, but it ain't gonna happen!) Plus, the more you tell me not to disagree with you, you know the more I will do it. I'm a brat that way!

Jill

[Sharon & Roy]

Originally posted by webwhiz

Oh, and btw, S&R, you never need to say to me that what you're saying is not personal, etc. We're all adults here debating our beliefs and our ways of working. I know that you're not personally attacking me, just as I am not personally attacking you. We simply do not see eye to eye on some issues, and that's what a discussion forum is all about! In fact, if we all agreed on everything, it would be a pretty boring place to come to now, wouldn't it!

Thank you Jill.

We certainly DO want to believe that we are all adults here debating our beliefs but at times we get the impression that some folks might just "read" us (to not understand what we actually are saying) the wrong way, so our disclaimer is a way for us to help in the prevention of accidentally "hurting" anyone's feelings or even giving the impression that we are "personally attacking them," (which is never the case) with our replies, comments, questions or answers. It is just so easy for that to happen at crucial times in the heat of a spirited discussion/debate, as we have witnessed it all too many times before, not so much here, but just in SEO Forums in general. This is a GREAT SEO Forum and we are honored to be here and to have the opportunity to share our opinions, beliefs and visions with anyone who cares to listen and to discuss them with us.

But also, I don't think you should be asking people not to disagree with you publically on this forum.

Jill, that is not what we asked at all. We love it when folks disagree with us, as it gives us the opportunity to research more and thereby learn more. Oh, no, we never asked anyone not to disagree with us in the least.

Here is what we actually said ...

(Now we can hear some of you laughing at this scenario, and maybe rightly so, but we ask you to please refrain from posting any negative remarks about this publicly, like how this will never happen or how silly the whole idea seems to you, etc., thank you, as such remarks will not really do anyone in particular or the Web population as a whole any good at all. We simply have a vision of what the Web can/could be, and are simply sharing it with our peers, is all.)

To disagree with us if perfectly fine, we love it, and we have come to expect it, but as we said, or maybe better rendered would be, that we implied for folks to refrain from ridicule or sarcasm or "put downs" (negative remarks) of any kind. In other words, to simply disagree with us in a positive way rather than to disagree with us in a negative way is all that we were/are asking. That's okay to ask is it not?

Jill, if our earlier statement was not clear to you, then we apologize, and so we will now say it in a clearer way ... For anyone to disagree with us is just fine, we have absolutely no problem with that, as no one should, but "to make light of" or to "poke fun of" one's opinions, comments, beliefs or visions with "sarcasm or ridicule" is what we are asking folks to refrain from.

Plus, the more you tell me not to disagree with you, you know the more I will do it. I'm a brat that way!

We would NEVER tell you to not disagree with us! That is not our style as we love to engage in spirited discussions since we learn so much from them. We only object to sarcasm and ridicule, never a disagreement.

I see no point in debating this any further. The bottom line is that S&R have some sort of vision for their locality page thingee, and they would like to promote it to others. It is my strong belief (and I believe that of many others here) that it's simply not going to happen.

Jill, you may be right about the fact that it's not going to happen, especially when folks who have the ability to help make it happen, don't/won't. We certainly respect your decision to not help make it happen, but conversely to imply (and please read this part carefully) that our vision is unimportant and not worth it (that's just our opinion of how you are viewing our vision, and we apologize for thinking that way if it's not true), can be disheartening to us as well as others who read this. And then of course, it will surely never happen.

Jill, whether you are aware of it or not (and we believe that you are), your voice (meaning, WHAT you say and HOW you say WHAT you say) has influence. People's decisions can be and are swayed by your words. That is awesome, and what a great position for you to be in. We are both honored and humbled to be able to converse with you as we are, because if it were not for the Internet, our paths would never have even crossed.

In light of that, we'll close with your following statement and make a few observations.

There are way too many other things to worry about with SEO then something that may or may not happen in the future, and/or something that will have little benefit even if it does happen.

Either you are making light of our vision, or you don't fully understand the implications we have attempted to present. In either case, your statement is disheartening to us, because, as a person of influence, we would have liked to have heard you say something much more positive, maybe something like this instead ...

"I personally have way too many other things to worry about with SEO then something that may or may not happen in the future, and I personally don't have the available time to help make it happen, but, please don't let my personal opinion about your vision stop you from trying to make it a reality and good luck, Sharon & Roy."

Jill, that would certainly have meant a LOT to us and added so much more "wind to our sails" (as opposed to "taking the wind out of our sails") when we read your comment, in light of our efforts to bring our vision to fruition. It's really tough to get motivated about a particular "SEO related vision" when one of the Net's most respected SEOs has just made a disheartening (or at least we took it that way, and again Jill, if that was not your intent, then we apologize for thinking/feeling that way) comment about it.

In closing we just want to say that if anyone is wondering what our motives are for writing and expressing ourselves this way, then rest assured that they are pure and we don't have any hidden agenda that would/could benefit us directly, whether monetary or otherwise if our vision comes to fruition. Our motives/intentions are to help make searching for local businesses LESS FRUSTRATING and COMPLETELY RELEVANT for those who do/need/desire to search that way in the major search engines. We know that it is VERY possible, for just a few "people of influence" to grab hold of this concept enough to sway others to see how easily it can actually come to fruition and benefit the entire "search community" World-Wide.

But if folks only dismiss this "seemingly" catch 22 situation and do nothing more than just say, "It'll never happen, but if it does, THEN I'll do something about," then of course ... It'll never happen.

We are just two people who see that there can/should be a better way to search the major engines for local businesses and want to help bring about a change in any way possible. But from the looks of this thread, that we are all alone in this vision and all alone to continue to look for ways to improve the local search results at least for now.

And that is okay because we are not so disheartened that we can't bounce back to continue our crusade at another time.

Thank you all for reading.

[supine]

Thanks everyone for such a lively debate, I admit I have just kept my head down and watched it unfold.
If you recall I started off quite badly being reprimanded by Hope for my lack of knowledge about the etiquette of this forum, but I persevered and it has certainly been an education.
Apart from my SEO duties I also work at an online learning centre which means face to face contact with real people out there, many of whom are not at all computor literate when they first come to us which is often a good reminder of how much those of us who have been around the wired world a bit longer take for granted especially when it comes to using search engines and directories.
The commonest mistake I see learners make is trying to construct a www. address in the search box, anyway back to the points raised in this forum - optimizing according to current wisdom can certainly be time consuming but I think we all appreciate the need to try and keep up to date and preferably half a step ahead.
To quote Michael Wolff
"The thing about technology is that, with a little imagination, you can get ahead of it. And you can be there when it catches up with you. To profit, gloat, or have the chance to spin it - just a tad is all you'll get the chance to do - in the direction you'd like to see it go.

Ahead, you, as an entrepreneur, will encounter financiers, promotors, and all manner of opportunists wanting to open kimonos with you. And having been there, having done it, having had the experience of being ahead of the pack, of having imagined the future specifically enough and vividly enough to sell it, I would certainly advise you that it's inevitable - they're going to screw you.

But I can give it another spin, too:

Nobody knows what's going on. The technology people don't know. The content people don't know. The money people don't know. Whatever we agree on today will be disputed tomorrow. Whoever is leading today, I can say with absolute certainty, will be adrift or transformed some number of months from now. Whosoever screws with you will get screwed with, too. It's a kind of anarchy. A strangely level playing field. The Wild West.

And here I am, making plans again."
From Burn Rate Orion 2001
So basically I agree , vision is essential.
Just sometimes communicating via the written word can easily lead to more misunderstandings and misinterpretations than person to person ( yes, I studied philosophy of language in aprevious existence) and we should all keep that in mind when using the excellent services of this forum
thanks again everyone for sharing your thoughts and knowledge

[Advisor]

Either you are making light of our vision, or you don't fully understand the implications we have attempted to present. In either case, your statement is disheartening to us, because, as a person of influence, we would have liked to have heard you say something much more positive...
S&R, I'm sorry if my statement was disheartening to you, and I'm sorry if you felt I was making light of your vision. I never meant to make light of it. I simply do not agree with it, for a variety of reasons as stated in previous posts. I do understand what you say the implications are, however, I disagree with the that what you are envisioning is necessary. That is why I said we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
Our motives/intentions are to help make searching for local businesses LESS FRUSTRATING and COMPLETELY RELEVANT for those who do/need/desire to search that way in the major search engines.
It is my belief that there are already a number of ways to search for local businesses as I illustrated in a past post. The phone book, of course, is the best and most easiest method. Barring access to that, there are numerous local Internet Directories, and places like Switchboard.com, which make things simple for any user to search for local businesses. If this takes the wind out of your sails, I'm sorry for that, however, it is my opinion that this is the reality of the situation.

Jill

[ihelpyou]

Oh yes S & R, I completely agree with you that disagreements are necessary and VERY wanted in these forums. They are the live-blood in here and is what make the forums work.

Sometimes my posts are very direct, but do not read into them things that are not there. I welcome all of your thoughts and opinions are everything. I have said on numerous occasions how I liked you all and your posts! Sometimes I simply disagreement with you, BUT, that is perfectly fine. Other times I agree with you and post that as well.

I ENJOY you. Keep it up! :)

[Blue]

But if folks only dismiss this "seemingly" catch 22 situation and do nothing more than just say, "It'll never happen, but if it does, THEN I'll do something about," then of course ... It'll never happen.

On the contrary. It's not always the movers and shakers who determine the who what where when why.

Sometimes all you need is to plant a seed.;)

[Sharon & Roy]

Originally posted by webwhiz

S&R, I'm sorry if my statement was disheartening to you, and I'm sorry if you felt I was making light of your vision. I never meant to make light of it.

No problem, and thank you Jill, we appreciate YOU.

I do understand what you say the implications are, however, I disagree with the that what you are envisioning is necessary. It is my belief that there are already a number of ways to search for local businesses as I illustrated in a past post. The phone book, of course, is the best and most easiest method. Barring access to that, there are numerous local Internet Directories, and places like Switchboard.com, which make things simple for any user to search for local businesses.

Okay, Jill, just for the record and to avoid any confusion on our part about what you are actually saying here, let us ask you a couple of questions, please.

Are you saying that the way SEOs and Web Designers (whether professionals, amateurs or hobbyists) are currently designing/optimizing local Web Sites is the best it's ever going to be, and that the end user can never really expect to find the most relevant results when they search for local businesses on the major search engines, so they should always use local Internet Directories when searching locally, or else suffer with the irrelevant results that are currently returned by the major search engines when conducting local searches?


Are you also saying that if we continue our quest to inform the "public at large" and various "SEOs/Web designers" in specific about Locality Pages, that we would be doing so in vein, because in your opinion it is not necessary to create them at all, both now, or in the future?
Jill, we just want to be ultra clear of what you actually mean here so that there will never be any misunderstandings on your opinions.

And in conclusion, we are always ready to accept the fact that, as you stated ... "That is why I said we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one." And on this we will always agree. Thank you, Jill.

[Sharon & Roy]

Originally posted by ihelpyou

I ENJOY you. Keep it up! :)

Thank you Doug!

We ENJOY you, and we ENJOY each and every interaction here at your Forums.

So thank you for the PLACE and for the OPPORTUNITY you afford us all, here at the best SEO Community on the Net.