Frame or not to Frame?

[Navarone]

I have a cleint site that we inherited and its designed with frames. The site has not scored well on the search engines in the past, and I have the oppotunity to redesign the site.
Is it best to avoid frames when you can?

Any input it welcomed.

Thanks

Navarone

[JuniorHarris]

Yes!~ By all means avoid frames whenever possible, unless absolutely necessary. It is much easier to optimize a straight page then one which is framed. Not all search engines index frames well, some may follow through and only index the sub-frame page...which could result in listings which bring the user into a page which is not framed nor with proper navigation. Some engines will actually index the noframes section of the frameset...but it is much easier not having to deal with the problems associated with frames.

[Sharon & Roy]

Is it best to avoid frames when you can?

Hello Navarone,

That is bit of a loaded question.

We will say that from strickly a SEO prospective, the answer is NO. There is no need to avoid frameset pages when optimizing for the search engines. Just do it correctly and your pages will rank just fine. We will help you with the design process to do it correctly if you so desire. Just ask.

And from a strickly usability prospective, the answer is maybe, since not everyone appreciates navigating within framed pages.

A Web Site that consists of frameset pages, even thousands of them has just as good an opportunity for ranking well on the search engines as non-frameset pages do.

There is a lot of misinformation about frameset pages being circulated on the Web, so be careful. If it is a usability reason you seek for not using frames then we say, avoid them, but if you are only concerned with a top search engine ranking then there is no need to avoid frameset pages in the least.

[Mel]

Hi Sharon and Roy

Sorry but I must agree with JH. you are correct to say that itis possibe to get good rankings with framed sites, but JHs point that it is easier to get those same rankings by not using framed pages is a great point.

I am a great believer in the KISS principal - why make life (or your site) complicated if its unnecessary?

So to Navarone my answer would be - Look at that which is easisest and which will get good results. If its easier or more convenient to redesign the site without frames you should go that route. If that involves more effort than redoing the existing pages to rank better then redo the existing framed site.

IMO a clean design will pay long range dividends, and so given a choice I would convert the site to one without frames.

[Sharon & Roy]

Originally posted by Mel

Hi Sharon and Roy

Sorry but I must agree with JH. you are correct to say that itis possibe to get good rankings with framed sites, but JHs point that it is easier to get those same rankings by not using framed pages is a great point.

Hi Mel,

There's no need to be sorry about your opinion as we know you are not being personal with us.

Would you be so kind as to explain to us why you think, and we quote ... "it is easier to get those same rankings by not using framed pages?"

If you simply create search engine friendly frameset pages, how is that more complicated to get those same rankings?

We would like to just engage in some friendly dialog with you so as to understand why you think it is harder to create/design high ranking frameset or framed pages, is all, thank you.

[Mel]

The differences are basic - Framed pages are in the first place equivalent to a collection of simple html pages and on their own are the basic unit which search engines deal with. If you want to optimize this collection of pages for search engines you must at a minimum use a NoFrames tag and optimize that also. Neither of these steps is required for simple pages.

[Sharon & Roy]

So, Mel, if we are understanding you correctly, you are saying that ... "it is easier to get those same rankings by not using framed pages" only because there are less pages to optimize, right?

[Mel]

Hi S&R

Yes, that and the fact that you don't have to use a no frames tag, and that you don't have to worry abut getting users getting stuck inside single frames, and that search engines are happier to spider plain html pages

[Sharon & Roy]

Hi Mel,

Thanks!

Yes, from that perspective, we most certainly agree that it would be less work. But creating a framed Web Site doesn't have to be all that much work at all.

Mel, (and others), you realize that you do not have to use the <noframes> tag in the frameset page, right?

To simply avoid/eliminate using the <noframes> tag to optimize the frameset page, just do not allow the engines to index that page at all. Use both the robots.txt and the "meta robots tag" to keep the page(s) from being spidered and indexed. Then just optimize the framed pages and make sure you include the following code in the <head> tag to automatically unite the page with the appropriate frameset page.

<script language="JavaScript">
if(top.frames.length <= 0)
top.location.href="http://www.domain.com/frameset-page.html"
</script>

There are a variety of ways to implement search engine friendly frameset and framed pages, therefore, you can make it as easy or as intricate as you desire.

We recommend to only optimize the frameset page(s) if you are unable to get the framed page(s) a top ranking, otherwise there is really no need to, and it just keeps things simple and avoids the extra work.

The ONLY time that we recommend to ALWAYS optimize the frameset page is when it is your Home Page.

You never want to keep this page from being spidered and indexed by the engines since it is the single most important page of your Web Site and blocking entry here will most likely block entry to all your pages.

In closing, we'll say that creating frameset pages for your entire Web Site or even for just portion of it, does require some detailed research of all the options available to you and the pros and cons about not only creating Search Engine-Friendly pages, but also Usability-Friendly pages.

It would also serve your visitors well if you create a help page where you explain how they should best navigate your pages/site and how to bookmark a framed page, since many don't know how. Also mentioning how they can navigate your pages/site without frames would be advisable, so that you can still accommodate those who despise frames, so they will still use and return to your Site, whereas without this info they may just leave never to return.

[Mel]

And when the search engine delivers your surfer to the interior page (without the rest of the frameset) and there are no links to the rest of your site what do you do then?

[Sharon & Roy]

Mel, if you design your interior pages as we described above you will NEVER have this problem.

What you refer to as the interior pages, we referred to as the framed pages above.

We wrote:

Then just optimize the framed pages and make sure you include the following code in the <head> tag to automatically unite the page with the appropriate frameset page.

<script language="JavaScript">
if(top.frames.length <= 0)
top.location.href="http://www.domain.com/frameset-page.html"
</script>

Creating your pages this way will ALWAYS unite them with their frameset pages, so you can rest assured that no matter which page your visitors use to enter your Site, they will always see everything just as you intended.

Omitting the above code is one of the major design flaws/mistakes that folks make when creating their frameset and framed pages.

[highman]

Navarone, as you can see from the way this thread is devoping there are many schools of thought on 'frames' they do not solve any problems, not in this day and age of quick internet connections, so why create yourself the problems mentioned above?

Just use a plain table layout

[Mel]

:up: :up: Highman

As I said originally in this post I highly endorse the KISS principle. Why make life or SEO complicated.

[JuniorHarris]

Very good points here!~ I agree it is possible to have framed pages which will rank highly...but as you will notice in this thread alone there are many things to consider with framed pages...optimize the frameset page, include JavaScript, maybe optimize the frame pages, provide navigation for those which despise frames, bookmarking problems, etc...

If straight HTML pages are used, we can remove all of these concerns and focus solely on optimizing the single page(s). I'm with Mel as far as keeping it simple. If given the chance I believe it will be much easier and less work to deal with straight pages. With framesets you'll have at least 2-3 "pages" which will have to be maintained, whereas it would only be a single page to maintain (without frames).

Now if frames are necessary for the architecture, then by all means there may not be any choice but to implement them. However, it would be much easier to focus on content and optimization for a single page, instead of all the "extra" auxiliary issues associated with frames.

[Web Witch]

Now I've just got finished cleaning up my website which uses two frame pages, so as I'm understanding I should add the Java script to every page to unite my pages and the script should point to my frames page so my pages won't be left without the top nav bar. Questions:

First - do I need put the Java script on my nav page if I have no meta tags there?

Second - I'm trying to separate my site into themes, so I'm assuming that if I optimize each main page for the theme category so these pages would get a higher ranking for their theme and with the Java script I won’t loose my nav bar; am I approaching this the correct way?

Thanks,
Cathee

[Sharon & Roy]

Originally posted by Web Witch

I'm understanding I should add the Java script to every page to unite my pages and the script should point to my frames page so my pages won't be left without the top nav bar.

Hello Cathee,

Not quite sure what you mean here so we'll answer you in more detail below.

First - do I need put the Java script on my nav page if I have no meta tags there?

NO.

Second - I'm trying to separate my site into themes, so I'm assuming that if I optimize each main page for the theme category so these pages would get a higher ranking for their theme and with the Java script I won’t loose my nav bar;

Cathee, you cannot separate your site into themes. Your site is THE theme. The theme is all inclusive and it is all your pages as a unit, so to speak, so your assumption for higher ranking pages is not relevant.

am I approaching this the correct way?

NO.


Cathee, we'd be most happy to help you set up your framed pages correctly.

First off, let's refer to all your various pages by these terms so that we don't get confused.


1.) Home Page Frameset Page = http://www.softdesigns.net/index.htm

2.) Framed Home Page = http://www.softdesigns.net/welcome.htm


3.) About Page Frameset Page = The new page you will create - http://www.softdesigns.net/about/index.htm

4.) Framed About Page = http://www.softdesigns.net/about.htm


5.) Web_Development Page Frameset Page = The new page you will create - http://www.softdesigns.net/web_development/index.htm

6.) Framed Web_Development Page = http://www.softdesigns.net/web_development.htm


7.) Graphic_Design Page Frameset Page = The new page you will create - http://www.softdesigns.net/graphic_design/index.htm

8.) Framed Graphic_Design Page = http://www.softdesigns.net/graphic_design.htm


9.) Webmaster_Services Page Frameset Page = The new page you will create - http://www.softdesigns.net/webmaster_services/index.htm

10.) Framed Webmaster_Services Page = http://www.softdesigns.net/webmaster_services.htm


11.) and so on ... and so on ...

12.) and so on ... and so on ...


Cathee, do you see a patern developing here? If you do, just keep this going for all your other pages and simply create a "New Frameset Page" for every one of your Web Pages, just as we have suggested above.

It would be best if you list ALL your pages in the same manner as we have to avoid confusion.

Now, before you do all that let's take your ...

4.) Framed About Page = http://www.softdesigns.net/about.htm

And create the new ...

3.) About Page Frameset Page - http://www.softdesigns.net/about/index.htm

Just copy and paste the following to create the above page ...



<html><head>
<title>About Page</title>
<meta name="keywords" content="">
<meta name="description" content="">
<meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow">
</head>
<frameset rows="114,543*" cols="*" frameborder="NO" border="0" framespacing="0">
<frame src="http://www.softdesigns.net/nav_top.htm" name="navtop" frameborder="NO" scrolling="NO">
<frame src="http://www.softdesigns.net/about/about.htm" frameborder="NO" name="content">
</frameset>
<noframes><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
NOTE: Since this page will NOT be indexed by the search engines,
there is no need to optimize it. Unless of course you want to. It's
completely up to you. For now, it'll be best to concentrate on your
other pages and when they are all done, you can come back and
optimize this area.
</body></noframes>
</html>

Once the above page is in place, then just add the following code to the <head> tag of this page ...

4.) Framed About Page = http://www.softdesigns.net/about.htm


<script language="JavaScript">
if(top.frames.length <= 0)
top.location.href="http://www.softdesigns.net/about/"
</script>


Then when you are done just post back here and we can check your progress.


Cathee, for your information we checked to see which pages Google has indexed and they have these 54 pages (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&newwindow=1&q=site%3Asoftdesigns.net++softdesigns.net&btnG=Google+Search) listed.

So what that means is when folks find these pages they will get your UNframed pages, like this one ...

http://www.softdesigns.net/about.htm

By adding a new Frameset Page for all of them, you'll be able to UNITE them all with your Framed Navigation Page.

We'll wait for you to get the About Page set up and wait for you to post back here again.

Bye4now.