Interesting Article for Newbies

[Advisor]

http://www.sptimes.com:80/News/092101/Floridian/Greasing_the_search_e.shtml

Jill

[Mel]

Nice read Jill - Its also good to have an unbiased third party report like this to back up what all us crusty SEOs keep telling people if you want relevance go to Google, or some other traditinal SE but not GoTo.

[ihelpyou]

Content doesn't matter:
only how much a Web site is willing to pay
and another one...
Tell all your pals and relatives: Do your Internet shopping
from my site. Just don't rely on it for anything important.
so true. :green:

[Farhan]

NICE ARTICLE !
But wait i have to say something.

yeah its so true that content doesnt matter at GOTO, but i love GOTO when you are searching for some B2B stuff. When you really need a company to work out something for you, then you can fine it right at GOTO.

[JuniorHarris]

Good read!~

Interesting they mention searching Goto for Gambling...so that's exactly what I did. I searched Goto and charged some poor saps $5.00+ by clicking on their links. Interestingly too, I swear Goto had a no "pop-up" policy...but just about every one of the first 10 gambling sites all had pop-ups...some more then one!~ :rolleyes:

Sure if one is looking for a product, then Goto is the AD engine of choice!~ Personally, the majority of the time I'm looking for information not infomercials!~ But I do try to visit Goto at least once a day...just for the clicks if nothing else!~:thumb:

[Advisor]

I wonder what percent of GoTo clicks are people doing exactly what Junior does? Hard to believe it can be worth 5 bucks a click to get people to your site. But who knows? I suppose those gambling sites could make a pile of money if they get enough users to sign up.

Jill

[JuniorHarris]

Well I could almost imagine there would be at least as many as there are competitors!:bouncy:

(Just for the record, I'm not even a competitor!~)

[Advisor]

Oh, come on now, JH...come clean! We know you have all sorts of gambling (and probably porn) sites all over the web! And we also know that you most certainly must pay at least 5 or 10 bucks a click to promote 'em! :tongue:

But don't worry, your secret is safe with us!

Jill

[ihelpyou]

You all are right on. Funny that I find myself always clicking a site in the top 3 if I search at an engine that has GoTo listings. :green:

NO ONE can tell me that GoTo or any other is worth it. ALL the bogus clicks like from people like JH and Myself ALL add up in a big way. There are many of us out there. AND, we click randomly and not often so it looks like a good visitor to the sites. So, go ahead all you GoTo fans out there. Coninue to spend your big bucks there as you can bet, I or someone has visited your site with NO intention of ever buying anything.

[JuniorHarris]

LOL!~ :green:

Darn my secret is out!~ Not only do I have $5.00 and $10.00 bids, but I also light my Cuban cigars with $20 bills!~ I also get comparable results by randomly throwing money (with our domain name on them) out the window as I drive down the interstate!~

:tongue:

[Advisor]

Some people do swear by it, Doug. There does appear to be companies out there that find it worth the money, so I don't think it can be totally discounted as a method of marketing certain Web sites.

Just because we don't like the irrelevancy and the dishonesty of how the results are labeled, the bottom line is that enough people are tricked into clicking on the "featured links" etc. to make it worthwile for many companies. I doubt it would have grown as fast and furiously as it has, if it wasn't making money for lots and lots of people.

Jill

[Advisor]

randomly throwing money (with our domain name on them) And here I thought that went out of style with the big dot.com bust! Isn't that what they used to do?

Jill

[ihelpyou]

Very true. If the listings were clearly Marked as "PAID" listings, this business model would have never been. Period.

Wonder why this model cannot play fair? duh.

That is okay. I get a tremendous amount of enjoyment knowing I am clicking on paid listings and so do many others.

[JuniorHarris]

I agree webwhiz!~

There must be some people making money (besides goto), otherwise the revenue source would quickly dry up. Though I imagine it must be very difficult to recoup the costs of $5.00+ bids!~ And you are right, just because we don't like them, does not mean others share the same feelings (or results). I suppose if a site is strictly commercial, then there may be an avenue within the PPC models which are profitable. I just pity the people who enter such strategies without the technical knowledge to ensure against fraud and bogus clicks!~

[ihelpyou]

oh, and for the record, my dsl line allows me to get a random generated IP every time I connect. I can even get a totally different set of "class c" numbers if I disconnect and unplug everything for at least one hour. So GoTo fans can try to get my IP and ban me, but that will not matter in the least. :)

[JuniorHarris]

I suppose you could always try using anonymizer (http://www.anonymizer.com/) as well...if they do indeed block IP addresses, then that could result in blocking everyone from that particular ISP!~ :)

[Farhan]

I always take GOTO as a marketing tool rather than a normal search engine. When you go out planning a marketing campiagn, your main objective is to get quality traffic to your site.

Take banner ads for example, you almost pay 30 cents a click on average ( and that too if you are rightly targeted) the other good option the OPT IN emails where you pay 10 to 15 cents for a mail which does not gurantee you a click.

NOW what! when you bid on GOTO for say, 20 cents or so and get a good position, you are doing good.. Yes there may be GOTO SPAMMERS like DOUG ;) but not everyone does like this and at least i have always had profitable expereinces from GOTO.

Take GOOGLE ADWORDS PROGRAM in comparison, and you will see that they stand NO WHERE. maybe because poeple find all what they were looking within the searched in GOOGLE and dont click those ads.

Whatever the reason maybe, GOTO is great to many!

[ihelpyou]

Google does claim they are doing well with adwords. At least they are forthright with what the listings actually are! :)

One reason Google may not be as successful as GoTo with the "paid" listings is only because Google plays very fair and the GoTo partners play very NOT fair. If the partners played fair, GoTo would Not be successful... guaranteed.

[JuniorHarris]

Good gravy let us also not forget Goto's shady association with such services as nettaxi, searchfuel, and findology (just to name a few). The reports are still vivid on how these services quickly became the number one referral for many Goto participants, yet they only contributed to dropping ROI and draining Goto accounts!~ Those that were technically gifted enough to track down and research their referrals found that very few conversions (if any) were from these shady services!~

I agree with Doug!~ :up: Goto would not be as successful (if you call it that, I call it deception!~) if the partners were up front with their "sponsor" listings. And not to mention the other so-called search engines which also "mask" their listings...by using "hidden" click-thru links to Goto!~ Many of these engines hide this fact by using a mouseover which will list the correct URL, however a view-source would reveal that they are indeed sending the click-thrus to Goto!~

It would be quite simple for competition (or anyone) to create a web page that will register click-thrus to Goto for each unique visitor to that page. Don't see how Goto fraud protection would even stand a chance at detecting these, as each and every click would be from different ip addresses with possibly different user agents!~ :eyes:

[ihelpyou]

Nice elequent post JH!

It boils down to the fact that NO ONE can prevent fraud... even GoTo. That business model only serves to entice fraud of all kinds. Those of you who use this type of advertising are only kidding yourselves as it is for very short term gain with NO long term benefits at ALL. Long term is acheived if you only continue to give GoTo your hard earned money. Period.

Trust me. Your hard earned money is not being spent in the best way possible for long term achievement. Long term success can (with little money) be achieved with very little work and NO FRAUD by having Great content and a well optimized site for the search engines.

PPC's are seen by many to be another form of scumware because of the fact of "deception", "greed" and "money" involved across the board with it. Take those 3 factors out and what do you have in the PPC model????? .... NOTHING. That's what.

[JuniorHarris]

Thanks!~

I'm sure not everyone shares our opinion, that the Goto business model and the deception of their advertising partners is very questionable. But if I had the time (and chose to work below the law) I would challenge any Goto advertiser to submit their keywords here so we could test the water and see if we could indeed help relive them of their advertising monies.

[ihelpyou]

LOL. What I find fascinating is that I know of many sites who are giving GoTo at least $500 per month to remain at the top.

SHEESH. Give me $500 a month! I'll get them top ranks for a lot less than that. :)

That's what I call "tossing" the ol money away in a BIG way.

..... for short term success, at that.

[JuniorHarris]

As I said in an earlier post...

I achieve similar results by writing our domain name on dollar bills and tossing them out the window as I drive down the highway!~ ;)

[ihelpyou]

:D

[MakeMeTop]

Ah - time to play devils advocate here! Sufficient of you know that I too am quite capable of getting decent rankings on SEs - but it takes time. GoTo is useful for getting listings for a client while doing optimisation.

I actually include this in my fees - so I pay for the listings - not the client. They are happy - 'cos they see quick results and an increase in focussed traffic and it gives me about a month to complete keyword research, site preparation, submission to directories, PT etc and then have 'proper' SE listings start to show.

When the funds run out - some clients choose to retain their paid listings - others don't. It works out about 60% don't and 40% do.

In the UK you have the additional problem that 2 major SEs Ask UK (voted the best search engine recently - why I don't know but it is hugely popular here) and Freeserve are totally paid listings for everything that is remotely competitive. Indeed, Freeserve shows pages of GoTo listings on certain terms before producing any Inktomi back up listings.

If you don't have GoTo listings (for Freeserve) and GoTo or another PPC (for Ask Jeeves) - then you can't get listed! Clients don't care that these are purely commercial listings and surfers don't know (or care?) - so you have to pay to get on these portals. It is hellish tough explaining that 'you have to pay for these listings' to a client - when you have them great positions on other engines and can't understand why they aren't listed on two of the search portals that 'average joe surfer' uses in huge volumes. So, it is easier for me to put them into these through GoTo on day 1 and explain that they may drop off without budgeting £x per month at the beginning - with me giving them around x thousand referrals in my fee from PPC rather than try to talk them into parting with the dough later.

To give an example of how important referrals from these can be - and their dependance on GoTo - on 1 site I get around 1000 referrals per day from Freeserve and Ask combined. This costs me around £50 per day ($75) - average sales conversion is 10% which generates around £150 per day in additional net profit - so it is a worthwhile expense. This site has top rankings for major search terms in Yahoo!, MSN, AOL, Ink, Lycos and Google and these generate around 2500 referrals per day producing great revenue at about the same percentage rate of conversion. However, the additional traffic/revenue from the GoTo UK listings is significant and without them (I know - I tried) I just loose those 1000 referrals a day.

Now - if we could only persuade the novice surfer to move from these two portals - then I might not need to spend the sort of money I do.

Just one for the melting pot ;)

[ihelpyou]

wow makemetop, I never thought of that and the predicament you are in. You can keep it. :)

I see where you might have to deal with GoTo over there. Such a shame. Also a BIG shame those portals have to resort to such tactics as being a "paid ad" portal to begin with.

[JuniorHarris]

Very interesting counter-point makemetop! :up:

Again I defer to your experience! It makes sense though...to generate initial traffic whilst you prepare the rest of your SE fodder. Very smart to also include the initial costs within your services, I bet that saves countless hours trying to explain Goto's business model up front to those which are completely green in this matter.

[ihelpyou]

Since that business model is completely contrary to my business, I simply do not mess with it nor would I want to. If a client asks about it, I tell them that it can be a way to gain top ranks right now while you wait, but they would have to do it themself. I have waaaaay too many other things I am busy with than to mess with something I hate with a passion and wish it to go away real soon. ..... which I think it will.

On another note, by getting my client into Looksmart right away, they get ranked in MSN and Google picks them up soon after anyway. The wait is not all that long. Besides, they have to spend money with GoTo, so why not spend it with Looksmart instead?

[JuniorHarris]

Doug I share most your feelings regarding Goto, however I do not wish them to go away...otherwise many of these sites may begin to infest the other engines!~ :eek:

[ihelpyou]

When I say "go away" I guess I mean they should "play fair". SIMPLY play fair and let the cards fall where they may. Period.

Exactly the way Google is doing it. They are playing fair. EVERYONE knows what the links are on the right side of the results. In spite of this, Google is doing well with their program. A big reason they may be doing well is because they are COMPLETELY upfront about what the links are. They are NOT trying to deceive the searcher nor the regular results nor the actual advertisers.

[JuniorHarris]

Agreed!~ :)

[ihelpyou]

Could someone.... ANYONE? please tell me what legitimate, acceptable benefit is gained by the searcher or the search engine or the advertiser, with the PPC's being deceptive and not upfront? Other than the money benefit we know of?

What is wrong with displaying the "paid" results like Google does? ANYONE?

[ihelpyou]

It would be good to have the CEO or owner of GoTo to answer that question. I would be very interested in what he/she would have to say about this.

Thinkin bout it more..... WHAT could he/she say? hmmm?

[JuniorHarris]

No comment? ;)

[ihelpyou]

yea, seems to me they would have to plead the fifth? On grounds that whatever they would possibly say could incriminate them. :)

[Advisor]

Originally posted by ihelpyou
LOL. What I find fascinating is that I know of many sites who are giving GoTo at least $500 per month to remain at the top. Many pay even more! I just talked to a potential client the other day who is spending over $2,500 per month with PPC! Which makes spending my one-time fees (even if they're high) look really cheap!

Jill

[MakeMeTop]

I agree completely that failure to indicate that listings are based on amount paid is grossly missleading. It is interesting that when Freeserve started showing GoTo listings here they did indicate the bid price - after about 2 months they removed the price (but still say they come from GoTo). Insiders told me that with the prices removed, more people clicked on the paid results.

At least FS and Ask here do indicate that the results come from GoTo (although few surfers know who they are) - Excite UK puts the top 2 GoTo results as the top 2 listings in their SERPS. No indication that these are even sponsored listings - just #1 and #2 - so the highest you can get through SEO is #3. I really do hate that!

Although I do use GoTo US when requested by a client (that one is an optional extra) - you can see that I have no real option with usings PPC here (certainly intitially) or until the client has fully understood the ramifications of not doing it. Most choose to appear in FS and Ask as they are so important.

I agree that use of LS and Yahoo! (plus PT) is very important in getting decent listings quickly and certainly use these routes so that prominent (normal) listings appear within a few weeks. That then allows the client to make an educated decision as to whether to continue with PPC after my 'pot' has run out. So, like PPC or not, it has worked out well in getting clients to understand what is happenning. They see that I can get them high SE listings through traditional methods and also understand the limitations of what I can do that way. It is then their decision on how to overcome these limitations in the UK SE market.

Wish I had the luxury of being able to ignore PPC except in exceptional situations - but for me it has now become the norm rather than the exception - for the reasons stated above.

One good thing has come out of it however. As I am paying for PPC I am unlikely to bid on highly competitive terms but enter many related more focussed (and cheaper) phrases. This allows the client early on to see the benefit in more specific phrases as in 'engagement presents' over 'gifts' (for example). This hopefully boosts their conversion rates and leads to them, again, feeling confident in our ability to drive relevant traffic rather than loads of worthless hits. Helps with my keyword research too - I can see the phrases that really do work and bring higher conversions.

So - not all bad and I've tried to make the best of a bad thing - but a pain in the b*tt none-the-less. Afterall, I spend several thousand $ with GoTo per month - and I'd have rather kept the money in my bank account thank you!

[bkztx]

Call me stubborn, but I will sit here and rot before I support goto. I believe that by supporting them, we are essentially encouraging that type of business model.

I prefer to do it on the cheap-- and it is taking forever!:balling:

[Sharon & Roy]

Originally posted by MakeMeTop

I agree completely that failure to indicate that listings are based on amount paid is grossly missleading. It is interesting that when Freeserve started showing GoTo listings here they did indicate the bid price - after about 2 months they removed the price (but still say they come from GoTo). Insiders told me that with the prices removed, more people clicked on the paid results.

YEP, that is so very true, as folks click MORE (but buy less) when there is no clear notice/evidence that they are clicking on a "paid ad."

We have seen research and case studies that indicate that in almost every case where an advertiser has a top 3 listing (the ones that get included on all of Goto's partner sites) that their ROI immediately took a nose-dive when the partner sites began showing their listings in the results. For many who finally realized the actual reasons why their ROI had dropped, then either stopped their advertising altogether or elected to try for the 4th ranked (or lower) listings to avoid all of the partner site's click-throughs to see if their ROI could be salvaged.

[ihelpyou]

I think I know one reason their ROI drops with the partners. . Could it be people like me clicking on those listings whenever I see them?;)

[Advisor]

:horns: Dougie's such a *bad* boy.

J

[JuniorHarris]

LOL!~ Yes, and don't forget there are many other "bad" boys out there as well!~ :evil:

[bkztx]

:thumb: I'm willing to do my part!

[Advisor]

I'm reporting the whole lot of you to the GoTo police!!! You better all lock your doors and windows, and put on your disguises8) cuz they're gonna get you!

Jill

[bkztx]

Bring 'em on! At this point I don't feel like I have anything to lose.:bandit:

[JuniorHarris]

Hey I'm just surfing the internet....you can have my keyboard when you pry it from my cold dead hands!~

:bandit: