Should SEOs hire professional copywriters?

[excell]

[Moderator comment: This thread was borne out of the Bad Neighborhood thread going off track...so it starts out a bit strange...we were talking about SEO and Common Sense and the topic of writing for the search engines came up. - Jill]


ahh.. I see you have a site about doodads.. well it is only logical that you will tell me all about your doodads on your site.. :) nothing overly complex about that.

[ihelpyou]

But we have to admit that some of what we do is about taking advantage of the mathematical formulas the SEs have to use in order to make it all workable. We're not cheating, but we are tweaking.
Well, the thing is that I rarely use 'mathematics' in anything I do. Of course, many do but just as many don't. It simply is not necessary. It 'is' a lot to do with common sense that goes hand in hand with what your visitors want on your site. Even Google states that if you simply build a site for your visitors, you will eventually do well in the search engines.

Common sense says that flash, graphics, funny scripts, etc do Not do well with spiders. Common sense says that spiders are simply robots. Keeping that in mind when building a site is giving you a big advantage with the search engines. It is a bunch about common sense.

[qwerty]

Nope, nothing too complex about it. My only point is that writing for the web is different from simply writing for clarity because of the need to please the search engines.

If it were only about clarity, I could indicate that I'm manufacturing and selling doodads, and then talk about them without constantly repeating the word doodad. An intelligent reader will know that when I discuss the "Elite Model 4" I'm referring to the Elite Model 4 doodad.

If I'm naming each section "Model 1 doodad," "Model 2 doodad," etc, I'm doing it because the search engine spider needs to see that to see that my page is relevant to the subject of doodads. The reader has already figured that part out.

Of course, in the "perfect" internet I described earlier, there wouldn't be much call for SEO's. Designers and copy writers would have it covered... so I don't mean to shoot myself in the foot here.

[ihelpyou]

My only point is that writing for the web is different from simply writing for clarity because of the need to please the search engines.
VERY true.

It goes back to that you have to know how to write. For along time I tried to edit and write content for my clients. Being that I am NOT a writer, I now outsource that VERY important part of SEO. For her, it's still common sense. Believe me, no one can tell the copy is written for both the visitors and the se's.

[excell]

errm.. excuse my rude interuption.. but doug? what do you *actually do*.. LOL LOL

[Advisor]

One of the biggest mistakes any SEO can do is to try to write copy for their client's sites.

You're an SEO, not a copywriter.

Hey...I can write, and pretty darn well...but I'm not a copywriter. There's a big difference.

Any SEO who finally figures out that they'd be better off with a professional copywriter onboard will see their business grow to new levels, they never imagined.

I really can't stress this enough. It boggles my mind that SEOs are still writing copy, even though they have no clue how to be a copywriter!

[okay...sorry...we've strayed way off topic now. I can' move this to the copywriting forum if we'd all like to continue this aspect of the conversation!]

Jill

[ihelpyou]

Hey excell, As little as possible. :D

Outsource copywriting, web design, programming, graphics, etc.

So yes, my answer would be:

As little as possible. :)

[robwatts]

I really can't stress this enough. It boggles my mind that SEOs are still writing copy, even though they have no clue how to be a copywriter!

Have you any before and after examples that you'd be willing to share?

I've never used a copywriter, perhaps I should, as my writing is often peppered with potholes which I usually pick up at a later re-read. Iv'e often had mails from individuals offering their services but have doubted their value.

It may be useful to show people before and after samples, doesn't have to be a url, perhaps a "here is a paragraph before the copywriters had an input" and "here it is afterwards" example would suffice.

[ihelpyou]

Okay. I'm game:
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I don't have the 'prior' content as I deleted it. :) You can see that there is NO WAY I could have wrote that. :D

[Advisor]

Rob, one of my favorite sites right now that has great SEO copy is www.interactiveartschool.com

I may be able to dig up the old copy somewhere. But suffice it to say that it's completely different. For an SEO copywriter to make it work, you generally want to let them totally rewrite.

There are definitely some times when you can edit for keyword phrases, and I do that part myself, but the client generally has to have good copy to begin with. Most don't!

I think I'm gonna split this copywriting stuff off now...

Jill

[robwatts]

Yep, I'm not saying that they aren't needed and in many ways, I can see their value in writing attractive interesting copy.

I guess I'm more interested to hear examples that show how people who've actually used them have seen any marked upturn in sales or ROI.

I can imagine that there are some CW's who have a problem with SEO interference and vica versa.

Interested to hear how these are resolved/approached especially in scenarios where neither has a great appreciation for the other.

[ihelpyou]

Hey Rob, I'm not sure what you mean?

When you start with a client you tell them what is going to happen. You tell them their copy/content on the site 's ucks' and that you will be re-writing it. Tell them it's the 'most' important part of the site for your visitors and for the se's.

That's really the easy part.

As far as ROI, etc., common sense says that the copy will help with your sales. As Jill said, most sites you get as a client have terrible copy as they tried to do it 'inhouse' with their so-called copywriter. You simply tell them the copy "Will" change. There is 'No' negotiation on this.

[Dan0]

Originally posted by Advisor
Rob, one of my favorite sites right now that has great SEO copy is www.interactiveartschool.com

That's some nice copy, all right, Jill. You'd hardly know from reading it exactly what they were targeting. Take the title off and who'd guess that this page ranked for "free art lessons" and "online art school"?

Compare that to freemoneyservices.com, which was obviously written by an SEO.:p

[ihelpyou]

Naw Dan, Not today's SEO. Give that site a good once-over by a SEO copywriter, and you would not be able to tell. :) I should 'sick' my copywriter onto that site. Too many things in the fire right now.....

[Dan0]

I bet there are a lot of SEOs who wish they were too busy to work on their own sites, Doug.

[ihelpyou]

LOL. Ya know, I have heard that before from others and did not believe them, but I now know it's the truth.

Yes, too damn busy. It's kind of like I don't need that site anymore. :D

[Kal]

Originally posted by Advisor
Any SEO who finally figures out that they'd be better off with a professional copywriter onboard will see their business grow to new levels, they never imagined.

I really can't stress this enough. It boggles my mind that SEOs are still writing copy, even though they have no clue how to be a copywriter!
This is so funny Jill. Just this weekend I came to this very conclusion myself and obtained a quote from some copywriters to begin outsourcing this area. I'm happy to say a few of us in here now share the same excellent copywriter :)

Originally posted by ihelpyou
Yes, too damn busy. It's kind of like I don't need that site anymore. :D Ditto here. Weird because it was very quiet 2 weeks ago and now suddenly BOOM, I'm booked out until end of May! I don't think I'll have time to edit my site ever again :eek:

[Dan0]

originally posted by the mighty Kal
it was very quiet 2 weeks ago and now suddenly BOOM, I'm booked out until end of May!
Was that a slow rumbling boom, or a "Danny Sullivan just linked to my site in the SE Report and everybody wants an RSS feed set up" kind of boom?

[Kal]

:green: Honey, as much as I'd like to give him credit for my business boom, Danny Sullivan links to my site regularly in SE Update (via one of my articles) so I don't think it was that. Besides, the latest issue was only circulated a few hours ago and the boom came last week. Did you enjoy any flow-on traffic from the RSS article link?

[Dan0]

Same thing that happened when Jill ran it. Nobody buys a book, but everybody wants help with RSS. So, I help 'em. :D

[robwatts]

I can imagine that there are some CW's who have a problem with SEO interference and vica versa.

Interested to hear how these are resolved/approached especially in scenarios where neither has a great appreciation for the other.

Doug Said
Hey Rob, I'm not sure what you mean?


Hi Doug

I guess it may have been the above part so I'll try to elaborate.

What I meant was, that some websites have already been 'copywrited' before they've been SEO'd. In these scenarios I can imagine that site owners and copy writers may be relcutant for an outsider to come in and meddle with it. Granted, its up to the SEO to explain the necessity, I was simply interested to hear of any examples and how some of you approached it.

On the other side of the foot, you could have a situation where a website is ranking well for target kw's but the site isn't converting into sales. In this scenario the SEO may be reluctant for someone else to meddle with their carefully SEO'd work for fear of losing rankings.

Whilst it would appear that an informed seo or copywriter should be aware of the relative strengths of the other, I can imagine that there are potential hurdles to be jumped in order to square this circle.

Perhaps a case study showing how a site that ranked well, but performed poorly in sales, actually performed after being copywrited and how such copywriting impacted upon the serps is really what I was looking for, although I suspect that I am unlikely to get it :)

[ihelpyou]

What I meant was, that some websites have already been 'copywrited' before they've been SEO'd. In these scenarios I can imagine that site owners and copy writers may be relcutant for an outsider to come in and meddle with it.
Yes, but that is why that part is easy. You said the site had not been seo'd, so it did not use a SEO copywriter. :) No regular copywriter knows what's up. I don't know why a copywriter claims as such if they don't know how to write for their visitors and for the spiders. Good one's do both automatically.

It's 'easy' because you tell a client upfront that the content is the MOST important part of SEO. That's why you tell them the copy "Will" be re-written.

Yes, would be tough to get a before and after of SEO copywriting and ROI. Sometimes many changes to the site are made including the copy so how would one know if the copy contributed to the better success? I'm sure a site could analyze it closely, but that's not something most would pursue. I guess you could do it if the copy/content was the only thing that changed on the site.

It's a catch 22, regular copy.... equals no visibility. SEO copy "Might" equal worse ROI if the SEO copywriter is not up to snuff.

[Copywriter]

Boy are my ears burning! Did somebody say SEO Copywriter? :eek:

Some of these examples look very familiar to me ;)

As far as examples of before and after... *most* of my clients don't have a before. I'm lucky enough to get them before much damage is done. And when I get ones that do already have copy, I don't save the old stuff. Maybe I should do that.

You can go to my portfolio and testimonials page. There are some stats there on a *few* sites. One SEO company got a 25% increase in sales immediately (I think it was 25%). There are others, too. http://www.ktamarketing.com/portfolio.html

Anyway... Dougie doesn't allow self-promotion so I'm going to slide back into the "anonymous copywriter" mode now.

Seriously, let me know if you have any questions.

Karon

[Advisor]

Originally posted by robwatts
What I meant was, that some websites have already been 'copywrited' before they've been SEO'd. In these scenarios I can imagine that site owners and copy writers may be relcutant for an outsider to come in and meddle with it. Granted, its up to the SEO to explain the necessity, I was simply interested to hear of any examples and how some of you approached it.

This is generally very rare. There are sites that think they have good copy, but most don't. Heck, most of the web has bad copy. How many sites that you read, are really well written. There's so much difference between okay writing and real professional writing.

Professional writing absolutly SINGS! I love great writing because it's just like beautiful music.

Finding sites that have writing that sings is very rare. I think we'll see more of it over time, however.
On the other side of the foot, you could have a situation where a website is ranking well for target kw's but the site isn't converting into sales. In this scenario the SEO may be reluctant for someone else to meddle with their carefully SEO'd work for fear of losing rankings.
Another rare situation, although that can happen. Even with good copy. Most of the time, that's a usability issue. I had one client with that issue. New copy, great seo, tons of top ten rankings and tons of targeted visitors. But he still wasn't making sales. I sent him over to a usability expert. Right now he's in the process of a redesign. Hopefully, that will do the trick.
Whilst it would appear that an informed seo or copywriter should be aware of the relative strengths of the other, I can imagine that there are potential hurdles to be jumped in order to square this circle.
A professional Web copywriter, and/or SEO copywriter has to be well-informed about sales copy. Any website that sells needs sales copy. Not hype, but well written marketing copy. If they don't know this, then they're really of no use, and the SEO themself might as well write the copy.
Perhaps a case study showing how a site that ranked well, but performed poorly in sales, actually performed after being copywrited and how such copywriting impacted upon the serps is really what I was looking for, although I suspect that I am unlikely to get it :) I would imagine that regular copywriters (as opposed to SEO copywriters) would have that data. That's really not an SEO issue, just a copy issue.

I know that the people at FuturenowInc. (the Eisenbergs) can often change just a few words or placement of things on people's pages and drastically increase conversion rates. It's got nothing to do with SEO, however, but more psychology marketing (or something like that).

And yes, Karon wrote that page I pointed out earlier!

One thing I wanted to ask you all, and specifically Karon, do you think that anyone can become a copywriter? Anyone at all.

For instance, Karon sells an awesome copywriting course, which I highly recommend. I think aspiring copywriters and even existing copywriters can get a ton out of it. But I wonder if you could take anyone at all and have them study that book...could they really become a copywriter? (Well, they could...but a good one?)

Like I said at the beginning of this long post, good copy and good copywriters are few and far between. I always wonder if one has to be born with at least a little bit of a copywriting gene to even have a chance?!

Jill

[Copywriter]

To answer your basic question, Jill... yes, anyone can become a copywriter. To answer your other question... no, not all will be good copywriters. And some people take more "educating" than others do.

Look at doctors... some people stay in med school for 3 or 4 years longer than others. Some people study architecture for years and years while others just pick up on it. Beethoven just naturally "knew" music... it made sense to him. I, on the other hand, will never be a great pianist because the process seems too mechanical to me. If I continued with lessons, I could play all the notes, but the music just wouldn't sound the same as someone who really loved playing, ya know?

Anyone can learn any skill. Some - who really don't enjoy a task - can be good at it. Many years ago I used to program business telephone systems. VERY complicated stuff. I absolutely HATED it, but I was darn good at it. Not a good position to be in. I have no desire to program phone systems (long story on how I got in that position), but I learned it from scratch and was one of the best. (NO! I will not begin to offer advice on programming your telephone system.)

But anyway... the ones who really have their heart set on writing exceptional copy - those who honestly love doing it - will be the best of the best.

Karon

[Dan0]

In my opinion, if you need bad copy to get good rankings, then lose the rankings. The great thing about hiring a real professional is that you can get the best of both worlds, if they understand SEO.

I more than doubled my sales just by taking the word "optimization" out of the headline and replacing it with something with more "grab." I am not a great copywriter yet, but I'd rather do it myself and learn from the experience.

Sure, my site instantly dropped off the map for one search term that was delivering good traffic, but getting 300 visitors and selling 9 books is way better than getting 400 and selling 6.

[amica_webmaster]

So how does one shop for a good copywriter?

[Advisor]

Originally posted by amica_webmaster
So how does one shop for a good copywriter? Good question!

When I was in the market for a new copywriter about a year ago, I went to Google, and searched for something like "copywriting." I went through every site, starting with number 1. Many were not actual sites of copywriters, but resources. (My RankWrite site wasn't in the top at the time for that phrase...but I think it's 10 right now!).

Anyway, I looked carefully at the sites that were supposedly copywriters, to see if I liked their writing. Copywriter site after copywriter site really sucked to me. Like I said in my previous post, I think most writing on the web is not good. So I kept going through the sites, hoping eventually I'd find one that actually had a writing style that I liked.

When I got to Karon's site, I started to get excited! YES! Finally...a copywriter who could actually write!

To me, whether they could write for the search engines wasn't important because I had already trained a few other good writers to do that.

Any good professional copywriter can be easily taught how to write with keyword phrases in mind.

That is really important, so don't forget it!

As it happened, Karon did have some experience with writing for the search engines already, so that was a bonus. (I'm sure I've given her a few extra tips along the way, but that's a win-win situation...which all you other SEOs out there who are now using her can benefit from! ;) )

But the point is that you have to really love the writing of the person you choose. Sure you can go for someone really cheap, but most likely they won't be very good (although that's not always true either).

And of course....once you find that special someone, if they are not experienced with writing for the search engines, simply buy them my nitty-gritty report, as that's exactly who it's targeted to...copywriters (and SEOs) who want to figure out how to write not just great copy, but great copy with their keyword phrases in mind.

Jill

[Copywriter]

Another note on shopping for a copywriter... let me tell you some things to look out for.

1. Check for a portfolio and/or references. Not having one shows a lack of experience... doesn't mean the writer is bad, just that they haven't done much and may need a good deal of hand-holding.

2. If you don't see samples, or you don't see samples that fit the client's industry, see if the copywriter will write a short piece for you. If you like it, you can pay for it... if you don't, then you're free to go.

3. Make sure your copywriter writes for a living full-time. If you have a deadline to meet, or need a rush job, and your writer doesn't get off "work" until 5:00, you may find yourself holding the bag.

4. Specifically ask about their SEO writing strategy. Take time to have a phone conversation or a series of emails to verify that this copywriter just isn't going to "toss" some keywords about and pray it qualifies for SEO writing. You'll want to be sure they know what they're doing. (As Jill said, good copywriters can be taught to write for engines so this isn't a priority... but - in my opinion - they do need to have at least a small clue about engines.)

Karon

[Advisor]

If you don't see samples, or you don't see samples that fit the client's industry, see if the copywriter will write a short piece for you. If you like it, you can pay for it... if you don't, then you're free to go. Really? I'm surprised a copywriter would actually recommend this strategy, as I've heard other copywriters find that kind of offensive! (I think there was a discussion about this in i-copywriting at one time.)

But I suppose if they can't show you any samples, then that is certainly the least they can do. And a new copywriter, just starting out may welcome the opportunity.

I would imagine that most professional copywriters would have some samples to show you. If not, that's definitely a major red flag!

Jill

[amica_webmaster]

Originally posted by Advisor
Any good professional copywriter can be easily taught how to write with keyword phrases in mind.

That is really important, so don't forget it!



That's what I really needed to know.

I wouldn't think of hiring anyone as a writer who couldn't show me samples. There are so many people who call themselves writers but don't actually produce anything.

[Blue]

I have a question for Karon...

How much does marketing come into play in a copywriting strategy?

For instance, I often interface with both senior citizens and youth (not necessarily at the same time). I know that a lot of senior citizens don't "get" what is intended, marketingwise, for youth.

So, if you have a product, service, or information intended for a youthful audience, what marketing strategies come into play in it's copywriting?

Or what if you wish to target the full age spectrum?

[Advisor]

Blue, from what I understand through working with copywriters for so many years is that knowing your target audience is truly key.

A professional copywriter will not only have to know the target audience (the client should provide details on who they actually are), but they also must then know how to write for that particular market. A lot of consumer psychology comes into play with all this.

So a good copywriter must not only be a naturally good writer, but somewhat of a psychologist and a marketer at the same time.

I think that's what sets apart a copywriter (like Karon) from a content writer (like me).

Jill

[Copywriter]

Jill's right, Blue. A LOT of it is knowing your target audience.

For example - with senior citizens, some things that most people never consider include making the font size a bit larger so they can read it more easily, making offers ULTRA simple (buy one, get one free instead of buy one, get the 2nd at 1/2 off, get the third at 65% off, etc.), and being clear as a bell in your copy - no hype, no jargon, etc.

For youth - you really have to be on your toes and keep up with what's going on in their own little world at the time. You also walk a fine line of talking "with" them in your copy as opposed to talking "to" them. We - as adults - tend to be unintentionally condecending toward youth.

Being a good copywriter takes much more than just actually writing... you have to be a good researcher, a bit of a psychologist, and a VERY good listener.

[PeterStone]

Hello all.

I'm a copywriter. I do some SEO as a learning experience - no SEO for clients. That's your job. I want to learn your skills well enough to be able to communicate with you easily, if there is a market for me here.

I didn't come by to solicit work, but wanted to provide context and at least some introduction. (Maybe I'll swing back in six months or so to be admonished by Doug for posting a link and an "ad"). (That won't happen, Doug).

I visit what I am guessing are most, if not all of the SEO BB's on a regular basis and have for some months. Generally speaking, I don't post.

Now, keep in mind, I'm not selling anything or looking for work. I just want to get that out of the way so you know I'm genuine when I say...

This thread rocks. It is well balanced and great exposure to an often unexplored, but all important resource for you guys. What strikes me is how intelligent, insightful and civil your questions are. The pros and cons are presented accurately, in perspective and thoroughly.

So, thanks.

Peter

[Dan0]

Thanks for coming out of "lurk mode," Peter!

Professional SEOs, who are trying to make an impact on their client's business issues, recognize that getting traffic to the site is only part of the job. Engaging a copywriter to help with the process can dramatically improve the client's return on investment.

I often advise folks who are looking for SEO help, to look elsewhere (copy and usability) first.

[ihelpyou]

Welcome to the forums Peter! :hi:

What? You mean you think I'm too outspoken and bold, maybe direct? :D

You only have one more step to go. You are a copywriter and would like to learn how to be a SEO copywriter. If you become one, you may have people like us hiring you to do a bunch of work! The copy without the SEO 'can' sell as well, but without no visitors that copy will have no chance to sell. :) SEO copy gets those visitors and hopefully will then sell as well.

[Blue]

Thanks Jill and Karon for those responses.

I am now wondering what relationship there is between a copywriter and a marketer if both are present in the design scheme?

Do copywriters regularly work with marketers or marketing teams?

If not (for whatever reason) where does a copywriter obtain marketing data for any particular project? From the client? Through their own research?

****

And Welcome to "de-lurker" mode Peter. :hi:

Perhaps you could give your take on my questions in this post as well as my original question in the post above?

[Advisor]

Welcome, Peter!

I agree, it's been a great thread so far!

Jill

[mncsc]

Originally posted by Advisor
One of the biggest mistakes any SEO can do is to try to write copy for their client's sites.

You're an SEO, not a copywriter.

Yes and No. From my relatively limited experience, the copy *is* 75-80% of the SEO, and 90plus% of the conversion rate. It's conversions that you're getting at.

A monkey could be taught to insert keyword phrases inside existing copy that ranks well. And search engine spiders are immune to boring and repetitive text (lucky them). Effective copywriting is, as you say, the singing siren that entices an impatient human to continue reading past the first headline so they might take the desired action.

But I don't get how someone can really "do" SEO without becoming a copywriter. If you're not writing copy, what's left to do? Table tricks, link strategy, site structure? - just the tech stuff? Don't get me wrong, everything's important for SEO and usability, but you have to start writing copy sooner or later.

You'll never become an effective copywriter, SEO or otherwise, unless you practice and learn from stellar copywriters like Karon.

Originally posted by Advisor
Hey...I can write, and pretty darn well...but I'm not a copywriter. There's a big difference.

I love your writing Jill. I read every syllable of your newsletters, because I find it has the best information/entertainment ratio (other than this forum) on SEO related matters. You might lose me (and other "like minded" readers) if your "style" changed by having it professionally copywritten.

Copywriting effectiveness is *ultra* subjective - what you may adore, others may despise. That's where experienced advice is key in targeting the majority of the majority of your target audience. I'd suggest any SEO could get a major kick start to quality copy by reading a couple ebooks authored by certain (coincidence?) IHY forum members.

As mentioned at the top of this post, I'm a fledgling SEO new-mid-bie who's been practicing "the art of SEO" on friends' small business sites and a couple slave labor jobs. I might be trying to paint a masterpiece with a 4" brush at the moment, but I generally get a little better each pass - study and practice will ultimately result in high rankings *and* a good conversion rate.

Today's top (ethical) SEOs and [SEO] copywriters had to start somewhere (the bottom) and work like hell to get where they are today. Basic SEO principles are simple - expertise in numerous fine details is what makes a great SEO, and I hope to acheive that one day.

This forum is what started glueing a previous year's reading of disconnected principles together - Hats Off to Doug, Jill, Dan0 and everyone else here!

You might think my site su**s (it does NOW) and the name might tick you off, but I have to start somewhere too - and copywriting is where it's at. I promise not to get high ranks / good conversions on G (or post a site critique request-yikes!) until I deserve it. That's a million details and months of practice down the road.

Success is always preceded by failure. Start and fail by writing some lousy copy that you can learn to improve - the experts here are giving away the tools for free (well, sometimes at very low cost) - but you have to pick them up and start using them.

:cheers:

[PeterStone]

Originally posted by ihelpyou
Welcome to the forums Peter! :hi:

Hi, and thanks for the welcome.

What? You mean you think I'm too outspoken and bold, maybe direct? :D

Nahhh. Direct is always a good thing with me. I've never seen you be inconsistent or what I would say is unfair. That's what counts, I think. It's your bat, your ball and you share them well.

You only have one more step to go. You are a copywriter and would like to learn how to be a SEO copywriter. If you become one, you may have people like us hiring you to do a bunch of work! The copy without the SEO 'can' sell as well, but without no visitors that copy will have no chance to sell. :) SEO copy gets those visitors and hopefully will then sell as well.

Actually, I am reasonably good (my criteria) as an SEO and copywriter. Some of my SEO knowledge I would characterize as academic, so no tests, please.

I'm certified as a computer systems engineer and have been on the web for years. We've (my business partner and I) set up some "lab" sites and are always experimenting with this, that or the other. Small, but informative (to us) sites.

I became frustrated trying to get any meaningful data on just about anything when it came to delivering sales via the web. After working on our lab sites, I've concluded that it's the fault of no one and have come out the other end with a new understanding. That each dicipline has some art mixed in with the science. All the diciplines would be strengthened by working together harmoniously. SEOs, designers, writers, marketers, usability... That's why I have invested in learning something about each dicipline. I don't need to be an expert in each area, just have enough knowledge to know where and how they best overlap in fact and in temperament. It's about having respect for each dicipline for what it is - part of the orchestra.

Anyway, I have some projects to wrap up over the next six months or so and will then settle into writing. I am so looking forward to working with you guys. Then I'll be able to cut back to half days - 12 hours. Hah!

Meanwhile, Karon has some awfully good ideas and seems to communicate extreemly well. What a great ambassador and copywriter. I would hire her in a New York second.

Thanks again for your hospitality. I'll pop in now and again and continue reading the various threads.

This is a good place.


Peter

[Copywriter]

Welcome, Peter!

Yes! Hiring Karon is a good thing :slywink:

Let's see here now... where to start? OK, the question about where marketers come into the mix. Marketers are generally the "concept" people. They come up with the plan, the data, and the ideas for the marketing strategy, and then implement them. However, many people don't use professional marketers.

In those cases, the information is gathered from the client by the copywriter, or - if the client has no clue whatsoever (which happens more often than you might think) - I have to do a little digging to find out the target audience stuff. (See the feature article in this issue of my ezine, it might help with the explanation: http://www.ktamarketing.com/bizess-feb03-1.html).

That gives me the info I need to write, but then the client must find someone else to do the design of any ads/sites, promote them through email/direct mail/etc., do the SEO, and so on. OR... the client can try to do it themself. (Which also happens more often than you might think.)

In a perfect world, the copywriter and marketer are both present in the design scheme. If everybody had an unlimited budget and wanted to do things the "right" way, the flow of work would go as follows:

Client - Has a need
Marketing - Creates concept, collects data, devises plan
SEO - Creates strategy, develops keyword list
Copywriter - Implements SEO strategy through copy along with sales message
Designer - Brings copy to life with applicable imagery
Customer - Buys, buys, buys!

[Advisor]

But I don't get how someone can really "do" SEO without becoming a copywriter. If you're not writing copy, what's left to do? Table tricks, link strategy, site structure? - just the tech stuff? Don't get me wrong, everything's important for SEO and usability, but you have to start writing copy sooner or later. That's a very good question!

Copy to me, is definitely one of THE most important things for high rankings. Most definitely. But as an SEO, it doesn't mean I personally have to do it!

For me, being a good SEO is knowing everything that needs to be done, and then coordinating it all between the various people that can do it.

A search-engine-friendly design is also integral to a successful site optimization. But does that mean that all SEOs need to be designers? In my opinion, all SEOs need to have some knowledge of HTML -- absolutely. But knowing HTML and being a designer are very, very different. Just as knowing how to write, and being a copywriter are very different.

Knowing where to place the keyword phrases is one skill set, and one that all SEOs need to have. (And it's actually the one SEO skill that has gotten me where I am today...which is why I wrote my Nitty-gritty report on that very subject!) But writing from scratch should be left to the copywriters, just as designing from scratch should be left to the designers.

Jill

[mncsc]

I find a lot of low ranking (or non-ranking) clients that have little or no significant copy to work with. Sometimes, it's like pulling teeth to get them to write a couple coherent paragraphs, so you have something to stick those "pesky" keyword phrases into - LOL.

[Advisor]

Sometimes, it's like pulling teeth to get them to write a couple coherent paragraphs, so you have something to stick those "pesky" keyword phrases into - LOL. Exactly. The client doesn't know how, and you shouldn't have to write from scratch either. That's exactly the time you need to hire a copywriter. Even if it's not one that knows how to write with keywords. If you can at least get something written, then you can do the pesky keyword editing.

Jill

[mncsc]

Originally posted by Advisor
Exactly. The client doesn't know how, and you shouldn't have to write from scratch either. That's exactly the time you need to hire a copywriter.

Agreed. Problem is, most "mom and pop" businesses don't have that kind of budget for SEO. Tell them that they'll need to spend a couple (or several) thousand extra for top-level web design and a highly experienced copywriter and they'll think you're nuts. They won't buy into "ROI on faith".

So, for a beginner SEO with tiny clients, you have to be Jack of All Trades (admittedly master of none) just to keep the price within range. Once they attain decent rankings and start making something from their sites, you might be able to convince them to go the next step.

[Advisor]

There are plenty of good copywriters out there who would write one page from scratch for $50 or $60. Which would be well worth it for any mom and pop store.

You could easily do this with the main home page, then do the keyword editing on inner pages and have a great optimization job done.

Saying that one can't afford copywriting is just silly. (Shop around.)

Saying that one really can't afford NOT to do copywriting is more accurate!

Jill

[Dan0]

There are three big pieces to the puzzle, as I break it down:
- Usability
- Copy
- Traffic

You have to start with usability, but even a wee little mom-n-pop operation can afford to plan out their site, buy a template for $0-30 to work with, or spend $100 on NetObjects or something like that. So the price of usability ranges from $0 on up.

If they don't want to write their own copy, they can get that done for $30-40 a page or less (check Elance), and at least have pages that make sense. So the price of copy runs from $0 on up. Copyriting is just not that expensive.

Then they need traffic. They can completely ignore SEO and just work on promoting their site with a linking campaign. Cost: $0. Basic optimization is simple enough that they can do it themselves as well. Cost of SEO: $0-$100,000.

You can spend money, or you can spend time. The advantage of spending money is that you can make things happen faster, and of course you don't have to make as many mistakes to get it right.

[Copywriter]

Fast... Good... Cheap - Pick Any Two. Remember that old saying?

See: http://www.ktamarketing.com/articles/articles_fastgood.html

[Dan0]

The great triangle of service: speed, quality, and price. You can't play on all three sides.

[dabblingmum]

This is a great topic.

I do SEO and Copywriting, but never thought to call myself an SEO Copywriter. LOL

At any rate, what I always find the most difficult is when you get a client who spells out what he wants, you write great content with SEO keyword phrases, and then he wants to change your entire work around using his own wording. LOL

I think having a good working relationship with your clients really helps when they don't understand the SEO part... makes it so much easier.

I truly love my clients!

Alyice

[Advisor]

Which brings up another interesting point. I've been seeing a lot of SEO copywriters calling themselves SEOs these days.

IMO, just as SEOs should not consider themselves copywriters, I also believe that copywriters should not consider themselves SEOs!

Certainly, there's a lot of overlap, and many SEOs can do some copywriting, just as many copywriters can do some SEO.

However, the world would be a better place ;) if SEOs and copywriters simply worked together as partners, leaving each one to do what they do best!

This would be a win-win situation for the copywriter, the SEO and of course for the client!

Jill

[scottiecl]

Originally posted by Copywriter
Fast... Good... Cheap - Pick Any Two. Remember that old saying?
That was my signature quote for about a week (until some smart alecks read the wrong meaning into it!! :lol: ) Still, I find it is pretty accurate.

Too many clients want all 3 and something has to give. Good and fast; not cheap. Cheap and good; not fast. Cheap and fast; not good. Too many people take the last option!

[Dan0]

Originally posted by Advisor
Certainly, there's a lot of overlap, and many SEOs can do some copywriting, just as many copywriters can do some SEO.

There's a whole lot more to SEO than writing optimized copy, that's for sure. You've got to do keyword research and figure out how to position the site. You've got to make sure the site can be crawled. You need to measure results, and feed visitor behavior back into the strategy.

I know a couple consultants who handle "the whole enchilada," but they're subcontracting the actual work of SEO, copywriting, design, usability, link building, promotion and marketing, etc. Their role is to coordinate all of that activity, and they're well paid for it.

[dabblingmum]

That is too funny about reading the wrong meaning into it.

I find that alot too though... I used to compromise and lower my prices to get a job, but what I found was that those that asked for the lower price were not very appreciative of my work. And would try to "barter" my services, thinking if I would lower them, than I would also barter.

Since I have stuck to my guns, with my hourly rate, I find that I get a better group of clients. We work really well together.

As my best client always says, "You give way more and you care far more about the success of your clients..." I think it is this appreciation that drives me to study the market better, to always be learning, and to always do my best job for my clients... and in doing so, I find that I have a better respect for myself as a business person and that shows in how I work with my clients.

So anyways, where I was going is this...

Cheap is NOT BETTER
Fast can only get you so far and can lead to many unnecessary errors
GOOD is nice, but...

DOING YOUR BEST with every client is the ONLY way to succeed.

Have a great day everyone! Its a beautiful sunny day in WI and the snow is finally melting!

Alyice

[Advisor]

I know a couple consultants who handle "the whole enchilada," but they're subcontracting the actual work of SEO, copywriting, design, usability, link building, promotion and marketing, etc. Their role is to coordinate all of that activity, and they're well paid for it. That would basically be me! Except I do the SEO part (whatever that is!).

Jill

[PeterStone]

Originally posted by Advisor
Which brings up another interesting point. I've been seeing a lot of SEO copywriters calling themselves SEOs these days.

IMO, just as SEOs should not consider themselves copywriters, I also believe that copywriters should not consider themselves SEOs!

Certainly, there's a lot of overlap, and many SEOs can do some copywriting, just as many copywriters can do some SEO.

However, the world would be a better place ;) if SEOs and copywriters simply worked together as partners, leaving each one to do what they do best!

This would be a win-win situation for the copywriter, the SEO and of course for the client!

Jill


Well said.

I can understand someone reacting to the marketplace by thinking that more services mean more money, but when you think it through, that's really a self defeating strategy.

You would be better served by getting a part-time job and funneling resources into becoming better at your specialty. Get the best tools, the best contacts - people you genuinely like, go to some regional conferences, take workshops, buy books... Then you can approach the marketplace from a point of strength. You'll really have something for sale that's valuable.

Extreemly valuable.

With that much confidence, what would happen if Karon wrote a direct mail piece for you? I don't know, but can you just imagine?


Peter

[Copywriter]

I agree 100%... copywriters should NOT qualify themselves as SEOs unless - in fact - they are. However, as the whole thread has proved... a jack of all trades is most often a master at none.

I'm not an SEO and I know it. Copy is my bag.

[Advisor]

I'm not an SEO and I know it. Copy is my bag. And I think those on either side of the fence who admit that, will be much better off in the long run.

The SEOs have to stop thinking they're copywriters and vice-versa.

I can't say enough about niche specialization. Learning the ins and outs of one specific thing can go so far for someone, and really enable them to be an expert at what they do.

Jill

[Rankenstein]

Well, I'm an SEO who thinks he's pretty good at copywriting. Exactly that: 'pretty good at copywriting'.
I would rate my grasp of the English language as excellent. Any English Lang. or Lit. courses I've taken, I've got A's all the way. I passed the Oxford English entrance exam, for example. Failed the interview though, which was not so good.
The fact remains that for some companies, 'pretty good at copywriting' doesn't cut the mustard. In the last six months I have been dealing with a blue-chip client that insisted their copywriter re-write my copy - this hardly ever happens to me - maybe a couple of times in the last five years. Let me tell you, the chap who rewrote the copy was much better at it than I am.
This has opened my eyes to the fact that not only is there a difference between SEO and copywriting, there is even a difference between having an excellent grasp of a language, and being able to write excellent copy in that language.
Good copywriting is without doubt a talent in itself. At a high level a 'proper' copywriter is indispensible.

[Advisor]

Good copywriting is without doubt a talent in itself. At a high level a 'proper' copywriter is indispensible.

:cheers:

Jill

[Copywriter]

Glad to hear you say that, Rank. ;)

[excell]

"rank" I will assume that was on an affectionate note there 8)

[Copywriter]

:p Oh sure! Just a little affectionate nickname for this person I've never met in my entire life.

[Rankenstein]

As long as we don't descend to 'Ranky' or 'Steinsy-poo' ;)

[Copywriter]

:green:

Not on your LIFE!

[excell]

lol copy.. I thought you were addressing jill! not rank-insence

[Advisor]

Nope, that's one name she's never called me. ;)

Jill

[Copywriter]

DARN TOOTIN' ! I know which side my bread is buttered on.

[Sharon & Roy]

[Moderator comment: This thread was borne out of the Bad Neighborhood thread going off track...so it starts out a bit strange...we were talking about SEO and Common Sense and the topic of writing for the search engines came up. - Jill]


What a fantastic thread this has turned out to be!

We wish to say HI :hi: to our fellow Forum-Mates who have participated in this thread that are copywriters (and SEO copywriters at that).

A WARM HELLO to ...

Karon Thackson aka copywriter (http://www.ihelpyouservices.com/forums/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=2459) (Whose articles appear all over the Net ... Of which we have been reading for some time now [extremely insightful articles, Karon, Kudos! We especially enjoy your INTERVIEW type articles], so we certainly feel as if we know her ... In a virtual knowing kind of way, that is. <WINK> We also have another community in common over at Kim Haas' Womans-Net (http://www.womans-net.com/) where Karon has a Profile (http://womans-net.com/myegallery.php?&do=showpic&pid=326&orderby=) for those who'd like to know more about her. Hey, Karon, we are also interested in discovering the personality traits (if we are correct in assuming that is what the Myers-Briggs outline of behaviors is about) of others, especially those with whom we network, as it can certainly lead to some very interesting and profitable relationships.)


Alyice Edrich aka dabblingmum (http://www.ihelpyouservices.com/forums/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=2317) (Who articles we have also read and we are on an eMail Discussion Group together as well, only Alyice may not be aware of it as we are lurkers on the The Mom Pack (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themompack/). And for those interested, Alyice wrote the press release for their community entitled Local Business Believes In "Pay it Forward" Philosophy! (http://www.thedabblingmum.com/pressreleasesMP.htm)


Peter Stone aka PeterStone (http://www.ihelpyouservices.com/forums/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=2575) (Peter, what wonderful insight you have shared, thank you! We certainly look forward to reading many more of your upcoming posts and have just added you to our "Favorite Authors List" for these forums.)


--- aka (Whose extremely insightful [url=http://www.ihelpyouservices.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=86884#post86884]testimonial (]Rankenstein[/url) is now one of our top bookmarks in our copywriting Favorites folder. Thanks for sharing Rankenstein. We also enjoy reading your posts and you were already on our "Favorite Authors List.")


Obviously, the copywriting industry is not being represented enough if the Wordtracker results are any indication at all. (See below for the keywords and the amount of daily searches.)

Hopefully, this thread and the many that will follow as well as various upcoming articles (hint, hint ... Karon, Alyice, Peter and Rankenstein) that the general public will be exposed to will change all that!


A quick look at the search results for the top SEO Forums for the term ...

copywriting

... Shows the following ...


55 = iHelpYouServices.com (since May 2001)
103 = SearchEngineForums.com (since May 1998 ) | Nothing in the last 5 months and only 4 threads in the last 6 months.
48 = WebmasterWorld.com (since December 1999)


... And for ...

copywriter

46 = iHelpYouServices.com (since May 2001) | 28 threads in the last 6 months.
25 = SearchEngineForums.com (since May 1998 ) | 1 thread in the last 60 days and only 3 threads in the last 6 months.
27 = WebmasterWorld.com (since December 1999)


... And for ...

copywriters

13 = iHelpYouServices.com (since May 2001) | 5 threads in the last 6 months.
11 = SearchEngineForums.com (since May 1998 ) | 0 threads in the last 60 days and only 2 threads in the last 6 months.
19 = WebmasterWorld.com (since December 1999)


By contrast, here are the results for ... meta

700 = iHelpYouServices.com (since May 2001)
11,300 = SearchEngineForums.com (since May 1998 )
2107 = WebmasterWorld.com (since December 1999)

(And you know what, a thread about copywriting is WAAAY more important than a thread about meta tags. This is a sad commentary, everyone, so what are we all going to do about it?)


While we agree that by definition, a copywriter ...

------
Main Entry: copy·writ·er
Pronunciation: 'kä-pE-"rI-t&r
Function: noun
Date: 1911
: a writer of advertising or publicity copy
------


... May not be used in the same sentence as SEO, per se, but in our opinion we do have to say that they DO go together in the same sentence and in the same breath as far as we are concerned.


------
Some quick statistics for you to ponder ...

SEO copywriter (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22SEO+copywriter%22) = 32 pages found

SEO copywriters (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22SEO+copywriters%22) = 14 pages found

SEO copywriting (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22SEO+copywriting%22) = 1,370 pages found (NOTE: HighRankings.com is #9 --- Kudos Jill)

search engine optimization copywriting (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22search+engine+optimization+copywriting%22) = 1,320 pages found (NOTE: RankWrite.com is #1 & #2 --- HighRankings.com is #8 & #9 --- Kudos Jill)

search engine optimization copywriter (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22search+engine+optimization+copywriter%22) = 3 pages found

search engine optimization copywriters (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22search+engine+optimization+copywriters%22) = 0 pages found
------



The reason we say that is because the definition of SEO as a noun is fuzzy at best.

Our definition is all encompassing, so therefore the word, copywriter or copywriting is always included in our definition of SEO (the noun).

Such a definition certainly doesn't seem to be the norm at all, right?

We ask you, why is that?


Here are the CURRENT amount of daily searches for copywriting related keywords ...

------
copywriters 124 114
copywriter 80 74

freelance copywriter 29 27
freelance copywriter rates 28 26
freelance copywriting 18 17

copywriting 248 228
copywriting services 42 39
copywriting fees 39 36
copywriting songs 39 36

public relations copywriting 31 29

copywriting for direct response 27 25
copywriting music 25 23
copywriting jobs 24 22
copywriting uk 23 21
copywriting that sells 21 19
copywriting for direct marketing 20 18
copywriting for direct mail 18 17

copywriting courses 17 16
copywriting books 14 13
------


Our SEO Copywriters Challenge

Since there are always many "SEO Diamonds in the Rough" in any and all industries, we thought to share this one with you.

We found the keyword phrase ... freelance copywriter rates ... with roughly 800 monthly queries to be quite a solid keyword term for OPTIMIZATION for any and all of our resident copywriters here.

At the moment we don't see any of our current "Resident Copywriting Experts" in the Top 10 for that term, whereby you would certainly get your FAIR share of the traffic that term generates.


------
For "Case Study" purposes ...

Here are the Top 10 Results (http://www.iwon.net/seo-tests/002.html) for April 8, 2003 | Compare With Today's Results (http://www.google.com/search?q=freelance+copywriter+rates)

Here are the Top 100 Results (http://www.iwon.net/seo-tests/003.html) for April 8, 2003 | Compare With Today's Results (http://www.google.com/search?q=freelance+copywriter+rates&num=100)


The aforementioned pages are password protected. Use the following to access them.

User Name: seo

Password: seo
------


We just thought that we'd pass along this information to you all, to let you know that it IS extremely EASY to obtain a Top 10 ranking for that term and #1 is also extremely EASY.

Our questions are ...

1.) Whom will be #1 for that term on the next Google Update?

2.) Will all the "Resident Copywriting Experts" we just said hello to, be #1, #2, #3 and #4 for that term?

3.) Are there any other "Resident Copywriting Experts" lurking who'd like to make their awareness known to us, whether you decide to compete for a Top 10 spot for this keyword term or not.

While we could let you know, how to achieve a #1 ranking for that term within the next Google Update or two, we feel that would not be much of a challenge and how else would you get any "hands on" SEO experience under your belts?

Please realize that we are not attempting to embarrass anyone or make anyone feel less than competent if they don't accept our challenge or if they fail to reach a Top 10 ranking within the next few Google Updates.

We just think it would be a GREAT exercise for many of the Newbies to see such a case study from the ground up, is all AND of course, to possibly provide our "Resident Copywriting Experts" with some EXTRA sales each month.

(Now to you SEOs, no fair helping. At least not yet, let's wait and see what happens in the next few Updates, before we start to give any advice, OK?)

PLEASE NOTE: This challenge is NOT to see or to determine whom is the best "Resident SEO Copywriter" ... But merely to have some F-U-N and to possibly have each and every one of us L-E-A-R-N something in the process, whatever that may be. Is this something that we can all agree on? If you don't agree with this, we hope that you keep it to yourself and don't post here in this thread, because we only want folks posting if they will be INSPIRATIONAL and ENCOURAGING and NONJUDGMENTAL throughout the course of this challenge. Thank you!


On another related note, here is a recent survey that we thought might be interesting for all of us to be aware of in light of this terrific thread.

------
What Are You Paying To Outsource Online Copywriting?

Not much, according to our mini survey.

The survey got a healthy 5 percent response from 7,400-plus readers.

49% who hire or manage Online copywriters say they pay less than US$50 per hour for Online copywriting.

40% pay between $50 and $100 an hour.

10% pay $100 to $150 an hour.

1% pay over $150 an hour.

73% of those who responded say they use in-house or staff copywriters.

What are Online copywriters’ fees?

On the other side of the coin, 47% of the copywriters responding to the survey say they are charging $50 to $100 per hour for their services.

37% are charging less than $50 an hour. 13% are charging $100 to $150 an hour. And just under 5% are charging over $150 an hour.

Sounds like most independent Online copywriters aren’t charging enough – if they can prove that their words result in more sales or other measurable results.

Source: PM (http://www.ihelpyouservices.com/forums/private.php?s=&action=newmessage&userid=80) us for the source if you are interested. Thanks.
------


In conclusion, we have a couple of questions.

1.) Would it be wise (or even ethical or unethical) for potential clients to ask the SEO firms they plan to do business with, whether they OUTSOURCE their copywriting AND whom they will be USING?


2.) As a potential client, if you ask the SEO firm that you plan to do business with, whether they OUTSOURCE their copywriting AND whom they will be USING, and they ...


a.) Won't tell you. (Should you be leery? Why or why not?)

b.) Tell you they do not outsource. (Should you consider this firm? Why or why not?)

c.) Do tell you they outsource, but won't give you a name. (Should you consider this firm? Why or why not?)

d.) Do tell you they outsource, and give you a name. (Should you consider this firm? Why or why not?)


Thank you ALL for this most encouraging and inspirational thread.

Happy SEOing And We'll See You At The Top!

Your Friends,

Sharon & Roy


P.S. For all the copywriters among us, a quick question that we simply want a quick ... YES or NO ... answer on.

We have heard that you should never use the word ... "very" ... So what say ye, do you agree? YES or NO?

[dabblingmum]

Well you certainly did your homework! I love all the stats!

It really had my brain working overtime.

Like I said, I never thought to say I am an SEO copywriter, because I still feel very much like a beginner in SEO and copywriting and am always learning and growing.

But that is a challenge I just might have to take :)

Currently, I rank number two on page one under hire a freelance writer because I feel that is my main job. But as I learn more and more about SEO and copywriting, you just might one day find me at the top! LOL

Seriously though... I have two great interviews on copywriting from some of the top guys in the business if anyone wants to read!

Bob Bly in the business for 20 years! His interview really gets one thinking about client relationships!
http://thedabblingmum.com/write_author_bobbly.htm

Peter Bowerman, very inspirational interview!
http://thedabblingmum.com/work_at_home_business_commercial_freelance_writer.htm

Enjoy!

Alyice

[Advisor]

Yikes, S&R, I was going to go to bed at a reasonable time tonight, but then I had to read your post and now it's morning. :D Okay, not quite.
(Now to you SEOs, no fair helping. At least not yet, let's wait and see what happens in the next few Updates, before we start to give any advice, OK?) Drats...foiled again. I was just about to go slap up a page for that, but now you've shamed me out of it.

Few comments:

For Web writing, I'm not sure how many copywriters charge by the hours and/or even if they should. I generally deal with copywriters who charge per page, which to me makes more sense.

For instance, take Karon (Speedy Gonzales) Thackston. If she charged by the hour, she'd be poor. She happens to be able to write stuff very quickly. If you counted the per page amount I pay her, it might add up to $100/minute! But that's not what's important. When I pay a copywriter, I pay for a page of writing, whether it takes the writer 2 minutes or 2 weeks, it's generally the same amount. (The one who takes 2 weeks may want to find a muse!)

Now certainly Karon could sit on her work and pretend she's deliberating over every word, and give it to me a few days later so that it appears to be ever so hard for her, but she's a girl after my own heart and just hands it over when it's done, even if it's done at the speed of light!

So I would just caution about paying by the hour if you're going to outsource a copywriter.

And now I'll really go to bed, and perhaps answer those other questions in the morning.

Jill

[dabblingmum]

>>>Please realize that we are not attempting to embarrass anyone or make anyone feel less than competent if they don't accept our challenge or if they fail to reach a Top 10 ranking within the next few Google Updates.

I will be honest...

I don't get embarrased with this group because...
#1 You are all way to smart for me in the SEO area
#2 I learn from mistakes as well as reading all your wonderful tips
#3 I never said I was an expert... just a humble learner! LOL
#4 If you were too ****y and uptight and picked out all my mistakes, which I am sure you could... I would have left a long time ago ;) Instead, you all share so much wisdom that each time I read a post I learn more and more!

Alyice

[Sharon & Roy]

Originally posted by dabblingmum

Thanks for this!

>>>Please realize that we are not attempting to embarrass anyone or make anyone feel less than competent if they don't accept our challenge or if they fail to reach a Top 10 ranking within the next few Google Updates.


And THANK YOU for saying so, Alyice.

Communicating Online and especially in a public forum is never easy.

We have certainly had our fair share of being misunderstood a "few" times over the last 7 years of posting, so we attempt to get that point across whenever we feel that there may be even the slightest chance of being misunderstood.

Plus we always post with Newbies in mind so that our information will be useful for EVERYONE (i.e., Rated "E" - For Everyone | Rated "N" - For Newbie | Rated "A" - For Advanced) who reads our posts, which is not to necessarily imply that whomever we are replying to is a Newbie.

Originally posted by dabblingmum

I will be honest...

I don't get embarrased with this group because...
#1 You are all way to smart for me in the SEO area
#2 I learn from mistakes as well as reading all your wonderful tips
#3 I never said I was an expert... just a humble learner! LOL
#4 If you were too ****y and uptight and picked out all my mistakes, which I am sure you could... I would have left a long time ago ;) Instead, you all share so much wisdom that each time I read a post I learn more and more!


Alyice, how wonderful to hear you say all that!

That is a superb testimony to Doug Heil, as he certainly gets our vote for the being the best and the friendliest SEO Forum Admin in the business and naturally everyone else just follows his lead.

Originally posted by dabblingmum

Great Stats!

Well you certainly did your homework! I love all the stats!

It really had my brain working overtime.


Alyice, thank you for your kind words, and yes, we hoped it would be food for thought.

Originally posted by dabblingmum

Like I said, I never thought to say I am an SEO copywriter, because I still feel very much like a beginner in SEO and copywriting and am always learning and growing.

But that is a challenge I just might have to take


Well, how wonderful!

Originally posted by Advisor

Originally posted by Sharon & Roy

(Now to you SEOs, no fair helping. At least not yet, let's wait and see what happens in the next few Updates, before we start to give any advice, OK?)


Drats...foiled again. I was just about to go slap up a page for that, but now you've shamed me out of it.


LOL, maybe not, Jill.

Since it's our challenge, we could always amend the rules a bit, but before we do, let's see if there are any more "SEO Copywriters" here that would like to come forward and throw their name into the hat so to speak.

Originally posted by dabblingmum

I have two great interviews on copywriting from some of the top guys in the business if anyone wants to read!

Bob Bly in the business for 20 years! His interview really gets one thinking about client relationships!
http://thedabblingmum.com/write_author_bobbly.htm

Peter Bowerman, very inspirational interview!
http://thedabblingmum.com/work_at_home_business_commercial_freelance_writer.htm


Great articles, Alyice.

And Alyice, if we may be so bold, we'd like to make a few of suggestions.


A.) How to Make Your Links in the Forum Clickable

1.) Check the box next to ... Automatically parse URLs: automatically adds [.url] and [./url] around internet addresses. ... which is located right above your "Submit Reply" button.


B.) How to Make Your URL in Your Signature File Clickable

At the top of the page,

1.) Click on the ... user cp ... button

2.) After entering the User Control Panel, click on the ... Edit Profile ... text link

3.) Scroll down to your ... Signature: ... text area, erase what you have now and replace it with the text below ... just copy and paste it.

[.url=http://thedabblingmum.com]http://thedabblingmum.com[./url]
Online Magazine for BUSY Parents

[.url=http://edrichcommunications.com]http://edrichcommunications.com[./url]
[.url=]http://alyiceedrich.com[./url]

Alyice, please note, that we used dots (.) in the code, so that it would not execute. Simply remove the dots before copying and pasting this code.


C.) The Underscore vs. Hyphen Debate For File Names

1.) Most people don't know what an underscore is and how to write your URL if it contains one when you give your URL out over the phone.

2.) When the URL with an underscore is a hyperlink and that hyperlink is underlined, the underscore appears invisible.

3.) Google does NOT recognize the underscore as a SPACE, like they do for a hyphen, so keywords are NOT given any additional ranking consideration (as little as it may be) like they would if they we separated by hyphens.

[ihelpyou]

That is a superb testimony to Doug Heil, as he certainly gets our vote for the being the best and the friendliest SEO Forum Admin in the business and naturally everyone else just follows his lead.
ah shucks.. :o:

Except when I'm blasting the spammers. :D

You know it's members like s and r who make the place. Variety is great!

Yes, great thread! SEO copywriting is a necessity. If you are a copywriter now, learning to write to become a SEO copywriter is a must.

[Copywriter]

Sharon & Roy,

WHOA! Holy Cow! That's a lot of information - and like most others here - I just had to keep reading. Good stuff... thank you!

And thank you for your kind words:

Karon Thackson aka copywriter (Whose articles appear all over the Net ... Of which we have been reading for some time now [extremely insightful articles, Karon, Kudos! We especially enjoy your INTERVIEW type articles], so we certainly feel as if we know her ... In a virtual knowing kind of way, that is. <WINK> We also have another community in common over at Kim Haas' Womans-Net where Karon has a Profile for those who'd like to know more about her. Hey, Karon, we are also interested in discovering the personality traits (if we are correct in assuming that is what the Myers-Briggs outline of behaviors is about) of others, especially those with whom we network, as it can certainly lead to some very interesting and profitable relationships.)

As for your question about learning more about Myers-Briggs... I actually prefer DISC. Kathi Graham-Leviss at XB Coaching (http://www.xbcoaching.com) is the one who trained me. I highly recommend her! There are also some articles on my site in the article archive that deal with this matter, but more along the lines of writing copy with the info instead of using it for daily communications, etc.

You had some questions, I believe...

1.) Would it be wise (or even ethical or unethical) for potential clients to ask the SEO firms they plan to do business with, whether they OUTSOURCE their copywriting AND whom they will be USING?

I don't think it's unethical but I don't see what difference it would make. What the client is paying for is results. If those results come from an outsourced writer instead of someone on staff - and the copy still gets the desired results - who cares who wrote it?


2.) As a potential client, if you ask the SEO firm that you plan to do business with, whether they OUTSOURCE their copywriting AND whom they will be USING, and they ...

a.) Won't tell you. (Should you be leery? Why or why not?)

I would find this a bit fishy. Either you do or you don't.... just say so.

b.) Tell you they do not outsource. (Should you consider this firm? Why or why not?) Sure... they most likely have a staff writer.

c.) Do tell you they outsource, but won't give you a name. (Should you consider this firm? Why or why not?)
Hmmm... tough call. On the one hand, the SEO is probably just trying to keep the client from going directly to the writer and striking a deal of his own. However, if the SEO/Writer relationship is solid, the writer will understand that accepting work directly from the SEO's clients without the permission of the SEO will drive you out of business F A S T ! Would I consider this firm? Well... I'd think twice about it. It would depend on how they explained the reason for not giving the name.

d.) Do tell you they outsource, and give you a name. (Should you consider this firm? Why or why not?)

Seems straight up to me. Nothing odd there. Sure!


Keep in mind that copywriting is about results... not necessarily about who writes the copy. Sure, you can say, "A big shot, million dollar copywriter wrote the copy on my site" and it will give you a great deal of pride as you eat peanutbutter and jelly three nights a week because no sales are coming in. :p Either the copy ranks a site high or does not. Either it brings in sales or it does not.

To answer your last question:

We have heard that you should never use the word ... "very" ... So what say ye, do you agree? YES or NO?

I wouldn't say that "very" should "never" be used, but it is an extremely weak word.

[scottiecl]

3.) Google does NOT recognize the underscore as a SPACE, like they do for a hyphen, so keywords are NOT given any additional ranking consideration (as little as it may be) like they would if they we separated by hyphens. S&R, I am assuming you have tested this. This is the first I have heard that an underscore does not work as a parser for Google. Can you give more details, please?

[How 'bout a in a separate thread? ;) - Jill]

[Advisor]

In answer to S&R's questions:

1.) Would it be wise (or even ethical or unethical) for potential clients to ask the SEO firms they plan to do business with, whether they OUTSOURCE their copywriting AND whom they will be USING? No. I don't think this is necessary. I think they can certainly ask to see examples, and ask if indeed they have a professional copywriter (either on staff or outsourced), but I don't think they necessarily have to know exactly who it is.
2.) As a potential client, if you ask the SEO firm that you plan to do business with, whether they OUTSOURCE their copywriting AND whom they will be USING, and they ...

a.) Won't tell you. (Should you be leery? Why or why not?)Absolutely not. It doesn't matter who it is. It only matters that they can properly and professionally do the job.
b.) Tell you they do not outsource. (Should you consider this firm? Why or why not?)Depends. Do they have good examples of how their company will write? Do you like it?
c.) Do tell you they outsource, but won't give you a name. (Should you consider this firm? Why or why not?)Absolutely. No SEO company should feel obligated to give the names of their contractors if they don't want to. Their outsourced contractors should be allowed to be a seamless integration of their own services, if that's how they choose it to be. I see no reason at all to worry about an SEO who wouldn't divulge the name of their copywriter. An SEO's copywriter can be their "secret weapon" and they have every right to keep it that way if they so choose.
d.) Do tell you they outsource, and give you a name. (Should you consider this firm? Why or why not?)
Don't really understand this question.

As Karon mentioned, there is the very real situation where the client may try to go directly to the copywriter if the SEO gives out their contact info. Many SEOs mark up the price of copywriting (as is their right to do so) and it would be unfair for the client to try to get that information out of them so they can save a few bucks. To me, a client who attempts to do that sort of thing is a bad client, even bordering on unethical.

That said, at this point in time I don't mind sending referrals to Karon if I feel that any given client *only* needs copywriting because they have a good handle on the other aspects of SEO. However, a few years ago, I preferred not to do that. It depends on your business model and how much business you have and want. If you can't afford to give up any business, it's perfectly understandable that you wouldn't simply send people directly to your copywriter. That could be business for you that you just gave away.

Which brings up another point. Because of the above situations, you may want to strike up a referral deal with your copywriter for any work you send their way. That way you both win if a client goes directly to them! (I get mine in chocolate cheesecakes ;))

Jill

[dabblingmum]

Well I did originally try to ammend and make my links in bio clickable but i kept getting a missing address error code so I gave up.

I went back right now and it seems to have taken so lets give it a shot! LOL

As for the underscore in my url extensions... that is more a personal preference in the sense that I have over 100 pages and I am anul and like to understand what my links mean in the easiest possible way.

Alyice

[dabblingmum]

Okay I am trying this again, I had an error in the ending [/url] I had a ' instead LOL

[Ajeet]

Originally posted by Copywriter
I wouldn't say that "very" should "never" be used, but it is an extremely weak word.
So, you are saying that it should be used very rarely :p

Ajeet

[PeterStone]

Originally posted by Sharon & Roy

Peter, what wonderful insight you have shared, thank you! We certainly look forward to reading many more of your upcoming posts and have just added you to our "Favorite Authors List" for these forums. (Note: The
original (http://www.ihelpyouservices.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8084&perpage=10&pagenumber=7) post was heavily edited). - Peter

Well, thanks to each of you, Sharon and Roy Montero: World class Search Engine Optimisation experts.

[Sharon & Roy]

Originally posted by scottiecl

S&R, I am assuming you have tested this. This is the first I have heard that an underscore does not work as a parser for Google. Can you give more details, please?

[How 'bout a in a separate thread? ;) - Jill]

Hi Scottie,

Please Click Here For Our Reply (http://www.ihelpyouservices.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=87822#post87822)

[Copywriter]

Tah Dah!! OK, I took Sharon & Roy's challenge (see below). Check it out guys & gals! #1 for the keyphrase mentioned. <bowing>

Our SEO Copywriters Challenge

Since there are always many "SEO Diamonds in the Rough" in any and all industries, we thought to share this one with you.

We found the keyword phrase ... freelance copywriter rates ... with roughly 800 monthly queries to be quite a solid keyword term for OPTIMIZATION for any and all of our resident copywriters here.

At the moment we don't see any of our current "Resident Copywriting Experts" in the Top 10 for that term, whereby you would certainly get your FAIR share of the traffic that term generates.

Go to http://www.ktamarketing.com/rates.html and then go to Google and type in "Freelance Copywriter Rates."

Not saying that many of the SEOs on the board couldn't knock me out of 1st place with little effort, but I did meet the challenge. What do I win :p

[scottiecl]

Originally posted by Copywriter
What do I win :p More clients? ;) Congrats!

[Advisor]

Way to go, Karon!

You know what's interesting? I've noticed this a lot...

You can do this:
I'll gladly answer your questions
and let you know if I provide that service as a
freelance copywriter. Rates will also be included....and it counts as your keyword phrase! Since that's a bit of an awkward phrase, it's nice to be able to use it the way Karon did.

Karon, did you do it that way on purpose?

Jill

[Copywriter]

Yes ma'am. I do that a lot with phrases that, in my opinion, don't make sense :) This one was able to be manipulated into sentences as the whole phrase, but to use it repeatedly over and over would have sounded very odd IMO.

[Advisor]

Well then see...you're smarter than I am. I never would have even thought about that previously! It's a great little strategy. I should add that to my nitty-gritty report!

Jill

[Copywriter]

Feel free! I'd be honored.

[Advisor]

I'm gonna first work it into my SES London presentation and will give you a little plug when I mention it. (Nothing I hate worse than people taking credit for others ideas!)

That should give me something to work with for when I do an update of Nitty-gritty.

Thanks!

Jill

[ihelpyou]

Oh sheesh, that is old hat and is simply common sense. :rolleyes:

Nice job Karon!

[Farhan]

Originally posted by Copywriter
........Go to http://www.ktamarketing.com/rates.html and then go to Google and type in "Freelance Copywriter Rates."

Not saying that many of the SEOs on the board couldn't knock me out of 1st place with little effort, but I did meet the challenge. What do I win :p

Good work Karon!

Your #1 ranking for the keyword of ""Freelance Copywriter Rates", again proves the importance of spotting the right keywords and using them intelligently.

From an optimizer’s point of view, this keyword is a "yummy" one :) as yours is the only single web page using it. Do a search for the keyword in "quotation marks" :)

[Copywriter]

Oh you guys are too much! I just love having my ego stroked :p

Thanks for all the support - and kudos.

[Kal]

Well done Karon! And I love that clever little tip to create 2 sentences out of an awkward keyword phrase - awesome! :thumb:

[Copywriter]

Thanks! I agree with Doug, though. While I did think about that years ago, so had lots of others so I doubt it would be considered an "original thought." :p

[Rankenstein]

Good stuff Karon....a speedy job! You'll have people looking over their shoulder at this rate.

[Sharon & Roy]

Originally posted by Copywriter

Tah Dah!! OK, I took Sharon & Roy's challenge (see below). Check it out guys & gals! #1 for the keyphrase mentioned. <bowing>

Go to http://www.ktamarketing.com/rates.html and then go to Google and type in "Freelance Copywriter Rates."


::: Congratulations Karon! :::

8 Days to a #1 Ranking on Google - 04/08/03 to 04/16/03

(Hmmm ... Sounds like the making of an article or special report or eBook or ???)


You are also currently ranked ...

#8 For ... freelance copywriter (http://www.google.com/search?q=freelance+copywriter)

... And ...

#1 For ... copywriter rates (http://www.google.com/search?q=copywriter+rates)

... And ...

#15 For ... copywriting (http://www.google.com/search?q=copywriting) (* See below for our SEO Advice)

... And ...

#6 For ... copywriter (http://www.google.com/search?q=copywriter)

... And ...

#451 For ... copywriters (http://www.google.com/search?q=copywriters&start=400&num=100) (* See below for our SEO Advice)


------
Wordtracker Stats

copywriters 112 105
copywriter 73 68

freelance copywriter 30 28
freelance copywriter rates 28 26

copywriting 238 222

copywriting services 45 42
copywriting fees 37 35
public relations copywriting 31 29
copywriting courses 19 18
copywriting tips 19 18
copywriting for direct response 18 17
freelance copywriting 18 17
copywriting for direct marketing 16 15
copywriting that sells 15 14
creative copywriting 15 14
------


Okay, Karon, now we would like to know (if you don't mind sharing with us, that is?) some insight to your SEO success.

1.) Was there any type of research that you did prior to starting your SEO process to help you to determine just how easy or difficult it would be to obtain a Top 10 or #1 ranking for this particular keyword phrase? Why or why not?


2.) How confident did you feel (on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being extremely confident) when you started your SEO process that you would immediately be ...

a.) In the Top 10?

b.) #1


3.) When you began your SEO for the term "freelance copywriter rates," did you design a NEW Webpage for it or did you redesign an EXISTING Webpage for it?

a.) If you optimized an EXISTING Webpage, why did you leave the file name the SAME? In other words, why did you not change the file name from rates.html to ... freelance-copywriter-rates.html?

4.) What method did you use to get your Webpage indexed in Google and the other search engines ...

a.) Submitted automatically with a software submission tool or a Web Based Service (whether fee or free)?

b.) Submitted manually to the "Add URL" page?

c.) Nothing, I just patiently waited for the search engine spiders to find my Webpage on their own?


5.) And lastly, do you have any additional advice for the Newbie SEO who will be reading this thread?



Not saying that many of the SEOs on the board couldn't knock me out of 1st place with little effort, but I did meet the challenge. What do I win :p


Karon, with a little effort you could easily keep your #1 listing, since this term is not (yet) a very competitive term.

The reason we selected this term was because of the monthly searches (around 800 according to Wordtracker) for this term to be worthwhile, so maybe you could keep an eye out for us on the amount of actual search engine referrals you receive in the up coming month and post the results here, so that we can gauge Wordtracker's estimated numbers.


For future reference we can check the other search engines for ...

freelance copywriter rates

Google (http://www.hotbot.com/default.asp?prov=Google&query=freelance+copywriter+rates&ps=&loc=searchbox&tab=web) - 3,510 Pages

FAST (http://www.hotbot.com/default.asp?prov=FAST&query=freelance+copywriter+rates&ps=&loc=searchbox&tab=web) - 15,670 Pages

Inktomi (http://www.hotbot.com/default.asp?prov=Inktomi&query=freelance+copywriter+rates&ps=&loc=searchbox&tab=web) - 1,549 Pages

Teoma (http://www.hotbot.com/default.asp?prov=Teoma&query=freelance+copywriter+rates&ps=&loc=searchbox&tab=web) - 1,440 Pages

AltaVista (http://www.altavista.com/web/results?q=freelance+copywriter+rates) - 1,274 Pages

MSN (http://search.msn.com/results.asp?RS=CHECKED&FORM=MSNH&v=1&q=freelance+copywriter+rates) - 1,519 Pages

WiseNut (http://www.wisenut.com/search/query.dll?q=freelance+copywriter+rates) - 1,089 Pages

Ask Jeeves (http://web.ask.com/web?q=freelance+copywriter+rates) - N/A

Gigablast (http://www.gigablast.com/search?q=freelance+copywriter+rates) - 2,707,590





* Karon, here is our friendly SEO advice to help improve your rankings for ...

copywriting and/or copywriters

Create a link in your Signature Files with your keyword terms. You may even want a longer phrase to help increase your other keywords as well.

Maybe something like ...

• Freelance Copywriting Services

• Freelance Writer & Copywriting Services


Another thing you can do right now is to change the keyword ...

Home

... In your navigation links at the top and bottom of your internal Webpages to your keyword phrase ...

• Copywriting

• Copywriting Services

• Freelance Writing & Copywriting Services

• Freelance Writer & Copywriting Services

Or whatever phrase you prefer.


------
Wordtracker Stats

freelance writing 670 625
freelance writer 191 178
freelance writers 182 170
------


NOTE: We believe that using the keyword ... copywriters ... in place of your current keyword ... Home ... should give you enough ranking consideration to move into the Top 10 for this term for which you currently rank #451.

Of the current words we looked up on Wordtracker ... freelance writing ... currently receives 625 daily searches, so that is obviously a term to consider in your SEO process.

A quick look shows us that you have a really good opportunity to break into the Top 10 for this term, should you use it in your navigation links on all of your internal pages.


A quick look at some of your current Signature Files shows the following ...



Karon is Owner and President of KT + Associates who offers targeted copywriting, copy editing + ezine article services. Subscribe to KT + Associates' Ezine "Business Essentials" at BusinessEssentials-subscribe@topica.com or visit her site at http://www.ktamarketing.com

Source: http://www.pandecta.com/web_site_copywriting.html



Submitted by Karon Thackston. Most buying decisions are emotional. Your advertising copy should be, too! - http://www.ktamarketing.com

Source: http://www.ezinesplus.com/biztips.html



Karon Thackston
Founding Member of The Safe Team
Professional Copywriter and Owner of
KT & Associates

Source: http://www.safeinternetbusiness.com/the-team.htm



"You've done a wonderful job of providing excellent direction and information."
Karon Thackston Copywriter

Source: http://www.dentalmarketingcenter.com/archives.htm



Overcoming Poor Coworker Relationships
by Karon Thackston © 2001
http://www.ktamarketing.com

Source: http://www.careerknowhow.com/advancement/poorcoworker.htm



Karon, all of these examples show that the "Link Text" is either your name, your company name or your URL, all of which are completely worthless for SEO.

If you place your keywords there instead, you will move up in the rankings and soon you'll be in the Top 10 and then eventually #1.

We realize that it may be a difficult to change the Link Text on the Webpages that are currently out there, but you should make these changes immediately to any new articles and the like that will become Backward Links to your Webpage.

Lastly, we'd like to mention that if you did not read the thread (http://www.ihelpyouservices.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=82647#post82647) about keywords surrounding a Backward Link, (or even if you did) that you don't put too much stock, if any, on keywords that surround your Backward Links.

SEO TIP: NEVER put your keywords surrounding your Backward Links. Instead, ALWAYS put them in the Link Text of your Backward Links.

For example, in this Backward Link of yours ...


"You've done a wonderful job of providing excellent direction and information."
Karon Thackston Copywriter

Source: http://www.dentalmarketingcenter.com/archives.htm


... Your Link Text is ...

Karon Thackston

... For which you WILL get ranking consideration, but since your keyword ...

Copywriter

... Is NOT in the Link Text, we believe (very strongly, we may add) that you do NOT get ANY ranking consideration for that keyword at all, not even a teeny tiny bit.

Therefore, it would be better to make your name the "Regular Text" and your keyword ...

Copywriter

... the Link Text.


Karon, all of this is simply "Food For Thought."

Happy SEOing And We'll See You At The Top!

Your Friends,

Sharon and Roy

[Advisor]

SEO TIP: NEVER put your keywords surrounding your Backward Links. Instead, ALWAYS put them in the Link Text of your Backward Links. Good tip if you have control over the link. If not, then DO put the keywords in the text surrounding the link, as it's better than no keywords at all!

Jill

[Copywriter]

Hi,

Thanks for the advice. I appreciate it. The only thing about links to me on other sites is that I don't have control over them. The majority come from articles I've written that run in both plain text ezines and on sites. Since practically all articles are submitted in plain text, I can't control anything but the URL.

As for your questions:

1.) Was there any type of research that you did prior to starting your SEO process to help you to determine just how easy or difficult it would be to obtain a Top 10 or #1 ranking for this particular keyword phrase? Why or why not?

Not in this case. Why not? Because you gave me all the information I needed when you posted your challenge!


2.) How confident did you feel (on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being extremely confident) when you started your SEO process that you would immediately be ...

a.) In the Top 10? 10

b.) #1 - Hmmm... maybe an 8


3.) When you began your SEO for the term "freelance copywriter rates," did you design a NEW Webpage for it or did you redesign an EXISTING Webpage for it?

I edited my current rates page.

a.) If you optimized an EXISTING Webpage, why did you leave the file name the SAME? In other words, why did you not change the file name from rates.html to ... freelance-copywriter-rates.html?

If it would have been a new site (and I am eventially going to re-do the one I have now), I would have changed the URL. However, while URLs *may* contribute to rankings, they're not the end-all-be-all so it wasn't worth the trouble to me at this point in time to alter the other thinks in the site that a page link name would have affected.

4.) What method did you use to get your Webpage indexed in Google and the other search engines ...

This one - Submitted manually to the "Add URL" page?


5.) And lastly, do you have any additional advice for the Newbie SEO who will be reading this thread?

Put your keywords where they count most... title tag, description, copy, copy, copy, headline, etc.

[PeterStone]

Alright Karon! Way to go.

I hope that phrase chosen for you brings you more than price shoppers.

For what I've seen, your freelance copywriter rates are a bargain.

Guys, pull out the old wallet and give her you money. She has earned it. Besides, sometimes you just have to buy a little sanity for your self.

As a vote for all of us resident SEO Copywriter experts, one of our pages landed ahead of just over 490,000 other pages for our KW phrase on Yahoo - (page one) and google - (page two).

So, let's make it a group celebration. Woooooohoooooooo!


Peter

[Copywriter]

YEAH PETER!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WooHoo!!! Way to go!!

[ihelpyou]

Goodness. How many copywriters do we have as members in here anyway? :)

[mmmpph]

There are plenty of good copywriters out there who would write one page from scratch for $50 or $60. Which would be well worth it for any mom and pop store.

There are also lots of $6.00 barbers out there if you know where to look, but their clients come out looking just a tad bit whoppiejawed. You have to ask, is it really worth it?

Bottom line, if you cannot get the client to ante up reasonable rates, neither one of you will benefit significantly from rewrites. The client gets the quickie rewrite that doesn't change much and is then, less than overjoyed. Of course, these are also the clients that sign the deal for the rewrite, think their job is over, expect changes will be completed by tomorrow, and that they will have 1st page placement in all SEs by Monday. A good page of copy that has been properly written for the audience and properly SEO'd will cost more. I've never found that working "a deal" with any client in any profession has ever made anyone happy long. To update an old phrase, "The cost will be long forgotten when the returns are coming in, but horse-puckey stays on the server forever."

I am not of the opinion that you can't make it so simple as to say whether or not copywriting should be farmed out. Mom and Pop sites may well be served by the SEO/writer combo, but that depends on his/her talents and desire to get into the head of the client and their clients.

Any good copywriter should be able to sit down with the client and get him to talk about his baby. Get him talking his own lingo and then get him to talk about what he talks to his customers about. The copywriter, taking copious notes (I've also use a digital voice recorder), does his research, and only then can transfer that into the copy and do his magic.

Personally, I think that there are two levels of SEOs and the ability to copywrite and the need to farm it out coincides:

1) There are the ones who are the jack of all trades but will never know the magic of getting the keyword "viagra" into the top ten. But they are affordable and good at helping the small to medium size business get what they want out of the SEO process. They can write fairly well... far better than the junk the client had come up with and understand what the reader wants and will take the time to read. He gets rid of the ol' Mission Statement and the guy's life story, makes sure that the links are well formed, dumps the invisible text and adds the alt tags. Keywords and descriptions are reasonably developed and the 200 1x1 invisible images that are alt tagged are cleaned out.

This SEO will get the website for the small lumberyard in Cleveland to show up in a few search engines when the keywords are "lumber, Cleveland OH" and get him off the penalty list for spamming. He might even get a few other sites to link to the site.

2) Then there are the ones that are more of the tech guru who has mastered zen keyword strategies but still try to communicate with people in VB. This is the guy that can do a mindmelt with Google servers and tell you that adding this word here and getting this site to use that text to link with you will generate a specific percent increase in SE position. But ask him to write about the joy of parenting and it sounds more like a dissertation.

This SEO needs outside help (perhaps in more ways than one). Working hand in hand with a copywriter who understands the mission will get this site up there but will probably cost a small fortune for the services.

I haven't heard anybody turn the ol' "The Internet levels the playing field" phrase lately, have you?

"The world is a crazy place but somebody has to do it"

Best,
Steve
SeniorMag (http://www.seniormag.com)

[mmmpph]

Probably being a bit too dramatic here as there are tons of people in-between number one and number two. Just trying to make the point that various factors to be considered and no one answer.

[ihelpyou]

Hey Steve, I think there are a few other types of SEO's that do not fit into either one of those two. I sure do not. :) Not even close.

[Copywriter]

One thing you said is for sure. I can tell you from experience (with my own company and with purchasing services from others)... when you look at only price... you lose!

Granted, there are SEO copywriters out there that will try to charge $800 per page and the results simply aren't there. The copy doesn't convert visitors to sales and it doesn't rank all that high on the engines, either.

COMPARE, COMPARE, COMPARE. Shop around and ask for samples. If the page is for SEO copy, ask which keywords were used and then do some searches on Google, etc. to see how the pages rank. Of course, the SEO his/herself will play a big part in getting the pages ranked high, but if the copy stinks, the page won't make it far.

Contact the clients at those sites who were given as references. Are they getting tons of traffic but no sales? Are they satisfied? Were their goals accomplished?

I can tell you right now that MOST of the time $50-$60 per page (or per hour for that matter) would make me nervous. I've done the bid for projects route and when you get a job for a really low price, you rush through it. You're trying to turn as much profit as possible, and (whether you mean to or not) your quality suffers.

As copywriters gain more experience, as they do their homework and study the results of their work, as they become more knowledgable (and you never stop learning in this biz), the rates go up accordingly.

Seasoned pros know what questions to ask. They know not to be "yes men." They know how to draw out the right information about your business, your goals and - most importantly - your customers (those who will be actually forking over the money).

I just went through this will tax preparers. I was trying to save some money. (Aren't we all?) But for the past 3 years, I've ended up with mistakes and amended returns over and over again. So I finally called the CPA I used several years ago for some special circumstances.

Just from talking with him again I got some great ideas on ways to save money that I never knew about. As it turns out, although I'll be paying him more annually for tax preparation, I'll be saving 10 times that much by making the changes he recommended. (Literally saving 10 times as much, not figuratively.) These other people never made suggestions. They never took the time to ask about what I wanted from my business. They never tried to get to know me. They rattled off a bunch of figures, threw them into a computer and spit out a tax return and a bill. (An incorrect tax return I might add!)

Anyway... ramble, ramble. Point being, it's a safe bet that experience and quality outweight (and out perform) low price every time.

[Advisor]

Anyway... ramble, ramble. Point being, it's a safe bet that experience and quality outweight (and out perform) low price every time. That's generally very true!

Every now and then, however, you'll run across someone who works at home, is smart as a whip, but simply underprices themself!

You can find this in copywriters, SEOs, and probably tax preparers too!

But interestingly enough, these people often lose jobs because of their low prices. People think they can't be good since they're price is too low. When in reality, they're happy charging low prices because they have no overhead, or whatever.

So, you can't always go by price to know what's good either. There's also the other extreme where people charge a TON, but are in no way worth it. These people give the expectation that they MUST be good because they charge so much.

No matter what you do, you've got to do your homework. You can get some good deals if you know the right questions to ask and can tell that a person really understands their business. But you can also get ripped off, if you simply choose the most expensive company.

Jill

[Dan0]

Maybe some of the copywriters can answer this, I'm sure it affects the SEO consultants too...

How many times do you run across a prospective client who doesn't know enough about their business?

When I get called to consult with website owners, many of them don't know:
1. How much profit they make from a sale
2. What their conversion rate is
3. How many visitors go from their home page to a product page
etc. etc. etc.

In these cases, what do you do? Do you offer to analyze their logs, to spot these opportunities? Do you tell them to go figure it out and come back later? Do you try to sell them based on other factors?

The easiest way to establish the value of copywriting is to establish where you can "move the needle" on their conversion rates, at specific steps in their selling process.

Bonus question: Once you've sold a client, do you help them measure their return on investment?

[Copywriter]

I get that a lot, DanO. To be honest, it depends on the scope of the project as to whether I volunteer (or add an additional fee, etc.) and do the work for the client.

Yes, you have to know those things in order to do any good. And yes, many clients don't have the answers.

If I can tell that the client is genuinely looking for information and wants to gain the knowledge to understand the online selling process, *most* of the time I'll offer to do some or all of the "research" (either free or for a small fee).

However, if I get a client who responds to my asking those questions with something like "I don't know... I just need you to write the copy" I don't even bother. They are looking for a quick fix with no regard to how the copy falls within the whole process. That's not the kind of work I do :p

[Webmaster T]

Originally posted by Copywriter
Seasoned pros know what questions to ask. They know not to be "yes men"Copywriter that sums up a lot of what is wrong with the SEO industry. They let clients decide the keywords, and make decisions that they aren't equipped to make. IMHO, a "yes man" is not acting in his clients best interests even if the client thinks they are!

I always ask when I get one of these "if you are going to make these decisions then why did you hire me? You can get someone else to do it for 1/4 of the price. Let me do my job and have faith that I know what I'm doing. Elsewise I believe I can't do that and have your best interests at heart!". If they don't agree then I try to gracefully get out of the contract and if I can't I "only" do as told. Complete it and get out of there as fast as possible. Life is just toooooooooooo short!

[Dan0]

A lot of "consultants" don't really know that much about the business end of things - not that they can't do "their job," but they don't always understand what it means to the client. I end up looking at a lot of SEO proposals, and they rarely address the prospect/client's business issues at all.

It's actually a lot easier to guarantee "a profit" than "a top ten ranking," and most business owners want profits, but these proposals rarely address that. You always get a list of clients with top rankings, but you rarely get a list of clients who made more money.

For copywriters, the impact is very easy to measure, in a hurry, but I was wondering how they deal with clients who have no idea what's happening on their website right now.

[mmmpph]

Maybe some of the copywriters can answer this, I'm sure it affects the SEO consultants too...
How many times do you run across a prospective client who doesn't know enough about their business?

When I get called to consult with website owners, many of them don't know:
1. How much profit they make from a sale
2. What their conversion rate is
3. How many visitors go from their home page to a product page
etc. etc. etc.

Seems like most of the time, at least at first. Even large companies have no idea what is going on with their site. The dev people may well have a clue, but they don't volunteer this information upstream. In some cases, they have even told upper mgmt that development of this information was not possible or too expensive. The only presumption that I can make is that they either don't want to be bothered reporting this (do it once and you will have to do it forever) or they figure that they may be looking for employment if the facts were known.

I work more with long term projects, often have teams that work with clients for years, and only for companies where I have access to the highest level that has any part of the decision making process. I also require access to almost every department. If I cannot get to the company president or the CFO, we cannot trade visions. They will not understand the agenda, and they will not have the proper information to determine what is most important to them, ROI. Of course I also want to make sure that some underling has not over-promised and that no miscommunications will result due to a lack of direct contact.

I also must have access sales people, customer service, and support departments. These are the front line guys and know what is on the customer's minds. Sometimes the whole project will go through fundamental revisions based on this information. All of this communication ultimately has additional benefits because all parties/divisions within the company are psychologically/emotionally behind the project. They have invested their time and given their input and therefore, have a vested input in its success, remaining more positive throughout the process.

Dale Carnagie - 'The best way to get people on your side is to ask them their opinion.'

In the event that the company has no method of performance tracking, benchmarking becomes the first order of business while strategies are being developed. If you don't know where you are, it's hard to show how far you have come and therefore hard to justify future investments. Performance based justification is crucial to long-term relationships AND to getting those nice referrals and recommendations.

"It's a crazy world out there but someone has to do it."

Best,
Steve
SeniorMag (http://www.seniormag.com)
Senior and Caregiver Services Information Source

[mmmpph]

For copywriters, the impact is very easy to measure, in a hurry, but I was wondering how they deal with clients who have no idea what's happening on their website right now.

The above might answer part of this for you. But it isn't necessarily all that easy for copywriters to measure things if there isn't any traffic to begin with. While a benchmark of zero in most categories is indeed a benchmark, it can show no historical trends other than that there have been none. If a site only has 50 visitors per month, a 2% conversion rate, and a $12 per unit GP, then an investment of $20K in copywriting is going to look like a pretty lousy investment, even if the conversion rate jumped to 10%. This may be all the increase they will see until the SEs reindex the site or other marketing initiatives are effected and traffic begins to flow. In highly competitive businesses or where the customer is targetting local or regional traffic, it can take much longer.

Therefore, in the above circumstance, it is essential that the powers that be understand that you are starting with nothing other than some very sketchy and insignificant data. They have to completely understand that everything that they have done to this point has been a complete failure and than any success from this point on, over and above what they have been doing is attributable to you. The hard part is getting them to understand that it is a game of time, over which neither of you have any control. Companies want to see an immediate return on their investment and it can take months to show any significant return.

There have been several opportunities for me to cash in on doing such work, but I recognized that the owner didn't have a clue what was going on, didn't want to learn, didn't have the patience, only wanted to participate with his checkbook, not his time (certainly not the time of those on his payroll) and was primarily concerned with monthly forecasts of profits toward calculating ROI. In all cases, I opted out to let someone else take it saying that I didn't have time.

[mmmpph]

Copywriter that sums up a lot of what is wrong with the SEO industry.
Not so sure what you meant by that but if you are implying that copywriters are the problem with the SEO industry, then I have to say that you are obviously not in touch with the right copywriters. There are indeed some copywriters who are elitists, just as there are elitist SEOs.

Some SEOs do a good job and are extremely talented in both areas. There is a strong correlation and much overlapping between the two functions but many areas that are not. As in most fields, the more you specialize, the better you get in that one area. The problem comes up when the expert SEO thinks that his requirements supercede those of the copywriter or vice versa. Though phrased oddly, both talents are equally the most important function.

Both talents may exist in one individual or be further specialized in two, but the goals are different. The SEO is goal is about bringing as many of the right people to the site as possible. The copywriter goal has more to deal with converting the visitors that get there. What makes each goal achievable is the realization that they that without the other, the ultimate business goal (making money for the client) will not be met. Therefore, each person's success is dependent upon the cooperation and talent of the other.

Best,
Steve

[Dan0]

Originally posted by mmmpph
Not so sure what you meant by that but if you are implying that copywriters are the problem with the SEO industry, then I have to say that you are obviously not in touch with the right copywriters.
No, "Copywriter" is Karon's handle... what T is saying is that the SEO industry has too many "yes men," who would rather take the client's money than tell them what they need to know.

[PeterStone]

Originally posted by Dan0
Maybe some of the copywriters can answer this, I'm sure it affects the SEO consultants too...

How many times do you run across a prospective client who doesn't know enough about their business?

When I get called to consult with website owners, many of them don't know:
1. How much profit they make from a sale
2. What their conversion rate is
3. How many visitors go from their home page to a product page
etc. etc. etc.

In these cases, what do you do? Do you offer to analyze their logs, to spot these opportunities? Do you tell them to go figure it out and come back later? Do you try to sell them based on other factors?

The easiest way to establish the value of copywriting is to establish where you can "move the needle" on their conversion rates, at specific steps in their selling process.

Bonus question: Once you've sold a client, do you help them measure their return on investment?



To address your question directly DanO, if what you say is descriptive of the client's understanding, then they need to pay me to pull their stuff straight or we need to part company.

If they're rich and want to play on the internet, I might play. If they see the internet as some kind of answer to a product without a market, or if they want to play a good market as an idiot might, no play is in the forecast. It's all subjective.


Peter

[Peter (IMC)]

This thread is interesting, there is a lot of debate going on whether an SEO can be a Copywriter as well.

Bacially I noticed this:

The best copy writers aren´t too good in SEO
The best SEO's aren't too good in copy writing

And that is logical. Ask a specialist to be good at something else than his specialty and he knows he isn't.

But ask a common doktor to help and he will,... and if necessary he will forward you to a specialist.

(It all depends on your pain)

ah and did you know that common sense is the basis of math? :)

Peter

[ihelpyou]

Very true Peter. I cannot write worth a damn. A specialist now does all the re-writing I need done.

It's well worth the extra few bucks for Professional Copy.

[Webmaster T]

Originally posted by mmmpph
Not so sure what you meant by that but if you are implying that copywriters are the problem with the SEO industry, then I have to say that you are obviously not in touch with the right copywriters. There are indeed some copywriters who are elitists, just as there are elitist SEOs.Well, to be perfectly honest I see myself as neither. IMO, elitist is a four letter word in any context.;)

My post is a good example of the need for a copywriter. I left the comma out and see how much differently the post was interpreted by mmmpph!;)

[Copywriter]

That's why us little ole copywriters are here to help you out :p

Just lean on us and we'll get you through it all.

Karon

[ihelpyou]

Well yeah, I guess. It depends if the copywriter is any good or not. :slywink:

[Copywriter]

Let's assume that you would not allow any bad copywriters into your forum, OK? ;)

[Peter (IMC)]

Hi everybody,

Well,... still remains the question: "Is it always necessary to have a specialist write the copy?"

In my case, I believe I can write copy and do SEO. Do I consider myself a specialist in either one of the 2 professions? Nope! But still a lot better than most others. Generally I will write the copy as well as doing the SEO. Depends on the clients own writers, if they have any. Of course when a web site is about something I have absolutely no knowledge of, or when it really is not my thing, then I won't write myself. Copy writing is mostly about being able to understand the readers and the product.

It is kind of funny,.. both jobs need a creative mind, but it seems these 2 forms of creativity are settled in different parts of the brain.

Regards,

Peter

[amica_webmaster]

Originally posted by Copywriter
Let's assume that you would not allow any bad copywriters into your forum, OK? ;)

Well, sure we would. If we were all great copywriters, we wouldn't be much of a market for your course, would we?

Meta

[ihelpyou]

Copy writing is mostly about being able to understand the readers and the product.
Very true, however, being able to do just that while also focusing on a couple keyphrases, and doing so in order to write to sell, and all at the same time, is what separates the good ones from the bad.

That is not an easy trick for anyone. :)

[Copywriter]

[Hee hee] Good point!

As for if SEOs can/should be good copywriters, here's what I feel is the bottom line...

If you can get results in both conversions AND SEO rankings... by all means, do it yourself. If you're only getting good rankings but conversions and sales are not benefiting, it's time to hire a copywriting pro.

[ihelpyou]

Yes, but the way I look at it, why do all that writing work when it's not necessary? Even if I thought for a minute that I could write... I CAN'T, why waste time when I can be doing other things?

I feel others are missing the boat in trying to be "all" things to all people. Being 'specialized' in one area will be the ticket in the future if not right now.

Many times I get a call from someone saying they are totally confused after reading site after site, and then talking to people. Many firms are trying to do it all.... web design, hosting, dsl, graphics, programming, SEO, PPC ads, copywriting, etc, etc, etc. There is sooo much speel and spin out there, that it just might be refreshing to talk to someone who does "one" thing real well, and can lead you in other directions for the rest of it. I don't claim to do it all, but I sure can 'provide' all of it.

"Do you actually write the copy"?

Me: Heck NO, I don't. I will not BS you into thinking I do. :D

[Peter (IMC)]

oh you are so very right, Doug,

Doing it (web design, hosting, dsl, graphics, programming, SEO, PPC ads, copywriting, etc, etc, etc.) all is too much. I keep my work to SEO and copywriting. The rest I just know enough about to know if somebody who claims to be an expert, is telling the truth,... :D

And for being refreshed by the pro´s,.. that´s why we are in forums like this one,... :)

But sometimes it would be nice if web designers would know something about SEO,... they sometimes design web sites that are so SE unfriendly that you wonder what they did all the work for. It´s like putting the mona lisa in a bank in switzerland, nobody will ever know it exists. (well,.. at least that is what the swiss banks claim,... :))

Regards,

Peter

[NativeSpeech]

This post is a crass commercial plug. Please read on if not totally disgusted... Just kidding!

Using a copywriter, or at least hiring a professional editor to look over your carefully optimized web pages is an excellent idea. I have seen far too many pages that rank well, yet look like they were, IMHO, written by a grade-schooler.

Although a newbie :hi: at trying to optimize for search engines, (and a newbie on this forum), I have been involved in editing books and articles for fifteen years, performing freelance editing, writing, and executive (mostly $100k+ jobs) resume preparation. I have had little opportunity to work with web content, but the basic keys to effective written communication remain the same on the web and off: clarity, conciseness, and focus.

If you can do this yourself, well and good. If not, or if you are not willing to spend the time and effort to do it properly, I strongly suggest that you hire a professional. Your clients will notice, your reputation will expand, and your work will grow.

[ihelpyou]

Welcome to the forums NativeSpeech! :hi:

But do you know how to also write for the search engines? That is the huge kicker. :)

Also, I disagree just a bit. Writing for the web is far different from writing for a book, etc. Maybe our ...cough, cough, expert web seo copywriter can explain? :D

[Copywriter]

Yes, I can take a hint :)

Writing for the Web is much different than writing for offline mediums. I, too, wrote offline for about 15 years before jumping on the Internet bandwagon.

The focus of surfers is much different than that of someone reading a newspaper, magazine or DM piece. The objectives of those online are different than those offline. Even the way information is perceived and assimilated varies. Just a whole new world.

Interesting fact... did you know that men's and women's shopping behavior is reversed when online? Cool, huh?

Anyway... many aspects remain the same, but those subtle differences can make or break the copy.

[ihelpyou]

I know, men just want to quickly buy the darn thing offline. Online, they want to research and look around. Women want to look around and shop/windowShop all day long offline. Online, they are quick to find what they are looking for. And, women are quicker online as they are sharper at searching. Right? :)

[Peter (IMC)]

That is very interesting,.. man and women's shopping behavior are reversed online?

I like these kind of "psychological" subjects,

Would you know an article somewhere about it? I´m very curious on the reasons for this.

Would it be because the internet (at least until not so long ago) is mainly a male thing? Or is it because mostly words are used which appeal better to men, while women prefer a certain atmosphere, which is more difficult to create in the internet?

Very interesting.

Looking forward to your reply,

Peter

[Copywriter]

[Shameless plug] It's all covered in my ecourse "The Step-by-Step Copywriting Course (http://www.copywritingcourse.com) " along with tons of other interesting tid bits :p

Honestly, there are several reasons. Not so much that the 'Net started as a man thing, but that men feel less "pressure" when online... they can relax without being stalked by salespeople or waiting in line to have their questions answered, etc.

Women see the 'Net as a convenience... like an appliance. They use it to make their lives easier and get done with things more quickly.

Shopping (in person) to most women is a release. For men it's one of lifes necessary evils :)

[Peter (IMC)]

ah that makes sense,... indeed those sales people in shops are the most irritating thing of a shop. Here in Brazil it drives me crazy. I can't set 2 steps into a shop and already somebody asks if they can help me,... But here they usually stuff the shops with sales people, about 1 per every 4 square meters (40 square foot if I am not mistaken) Far too much, since they never seem to be doing anything.

So women like that? Interesting!!! That may be the best advice I ever heard,... :D

:)
Peter

[Copywriter]

No... I didn't say we "liked" it. Some of them can be a real bother, but other times it's nice to have a "professional" on your side :)

If salespeople pamper more than they sell we like it better!

[Peter (IMC)]

Well, now that we are talking about it. At the moment I am doing some copy writing for a web site that sells video email for businesses. My approach to it is:

short explanation on the left (the web site has colum on the left for short information), and in the main sales colum on the right the sales text:

I talk about existing or a new email marketing campaign, show how well it could work for them. and in the text I use a kind of slogan: "video email brings you closer to your customers and your customers closer to you"

I show that this is professional video email and that full support is given in order to create the best video emails possible.

Last part shows what they get (software, web cam, microphone and speakers)

Ah and then there is one example picture, that pops up a window with a real video email in it.

The main goal is that the reader should have the feeling that this can increase his sales. There is no "click here to buy" link, but an email us for prices and more information link only.

Would you think this is the right approach?

I could give you the link here, but since they want to start (they are a start-up company) in their own country first (the Netherlands) you probably won't be able to read it... :)

Thank you in advance,

Peter

[Copywriter]

Well, I'm not a big fan of sites that don't post their prices. Normally, if I visit a site and don't see pricing listed, I won't email for more information. Again... it's a convenience thing. I want the information I want and I want it now. It's also a trust thing.

Why don't you post your prices online? Why do you inconvenience me and make me email for the cost?

Other than that personal opinion, I'd have to know a lot more about the company, it's customers and the product to evaluate the copy you have on the site.

Who is the company?
What image/brand do they want to portray?
Who are their target customers?
Where are their customers in the buying process?
What struggles do their customers face that they can solve?

And a bunch of other stuff.

[Peter (IMC)]

Ah the main reason I didn't put any prices yet, is because I don't know them yet. But it will be something like 20 cents per email sent. (so your email list of 1000 adresses will cost you 200 dollars to email)

But I got the idea, most of the questions you show are in my list too.

The question: "what image/brand do they want to portray?" is one I didn't think of yet.
What kind of information do you hope to get from that question, that you can insert in the copy?

Thanks,

Peter

[Copywriter]

Nothing to insert into the copy. That has more to do with flow and the "voice" of the copy.

[mncsc]

Originally posted by Peter (IMC)
This thread is interesting, there is a lot of debate going on whether an SEO can be a Copywriter as well.

Bacially I noticed this:

The best copy writers aren´t too good in SEO
The best SEO's aren't too good in copy writing

Yep, everything is a tradeoff. But I'd say SEO is first. Otherwise, no one will see your copy anyway. :)

[Copywriter]

I'd say copy is more important. Without SEO "fewer" people will see your copy, but certainly not "nobody." There are other ways to drive traffic to a site, but none that make as much sense as SEO. It is by far the best way.

However, without good, compelling, targeted copy it wouldn't matter if the whole world found you - through the engines, links, TV ads on Superbowl Sunday or any other way - because you wouldn't make as many (or any) sales.

No sales... no money... site goes by the wayside.

[Dan0]

Naw, keyword research is first. Then you know what to write about and optimize for. :D

[ihelpyou]

Naw, knowing who your target market is, is first. Without knowing your market, no way to do keyword research which means no way to do the copy which means no way to seo. :D

[Copywriter]

B I N G O ! !

Give that man a prize :smart:

[mncsc]

Originally posted by Copywriter
I'd say copy is more important.

I thought I just said that - SEO is copy. Spiders only read text. It's just that, Karon, I'm just not nearly as good as you as convincing them once they get there. :) (edit to avoid confusing viewpoints)

[Peter (IMC)]

That makes sense.

Thanks,

Peter

[ihelpyou]

Peter, you have a nice and clean site! I like the way you are completely honest with your visitors and very upfront. I bet you get lots of inquiries. You are doing things right. :thumb:

[Peter (IMC)]

oh this is great,.... and it seems like the same discussion I hear in companies all the time:

Sales department: We are most important, because if we sell nothing, there is no money.

Technical department: We are more important, we make sure the customers get what they bought and stay!

Marketing department: We are most important, without us, nobody knows what to do!

catering: We are most important, what is everybody going to do without food and Coffee (they may actually have a point there! :D)

But as always, which part of a chain is most important? If any is missing, the chain is broken, and everything falls appart.

Do you sell a lot with good copy and few visitors?
Do you sell a lot with lots of visitors and lousy copy?
etc.

It all is just as important. Better even,.. if all are just reasonable, it works better than one very bad and the rest perfect:

0 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 0
3 x 3 x 3 x 3 = 81
(For the math enthousiasts) :)

Regards,

Peter

[ihelpyou]

Well,............ you still have a nice site. :)

[Peter (IMC)]

Thanks doug,

The inquiries are not that much yet, but I did not expect that much inquiries that fast. The site is up just for a short while, and one bad thing is that it is on a free server. As soon as I can afford it I will register a real domain.

But thanks for the compliment, I definately hope to get the chance to prove myself with more sites.

Peter

[skipintro]

As a copywriter who learned SEO over the years, I realized that the only intelligent thing you can do is know and understand your weaknesses.

A programmer or a proficient designer I am not, so I surrounded myself with people who excel at those things. We learn from each other enough to be able to work well together and provide quality services to clients. I understand what the others do, but I let them be better and faster at it. It makes good business sense that way, I think.

I know I can take a list of 50 key phrases, put them all in a blank Word document, and "see" them come together in a useful, meaningful, message-conveying way. I think it is easy, just like writing essays was easy for me in school--the content usually writes itself. But my programmers and designers, even my SEO partner, can't understand how I do it. So, we work together and share each other's gifts.

The real trick to good SEO is the research. When you do that well, the SEO, the copywriting, the link exchanges, and all that other stuff comes together. ALL SEOs need to be good researchers before they are anything else because each client has a different need.

I would argue that at the very least, every SEO needs to find a good copy editor or proofreader because nobody wants to purchase from a Web site that misssspels werds all the tyme and looks like there writng at a forth grayd levil...(annoying, isn't it?!).

[Copywriter]

Ha Ha! Good points all the way around!

[ihelpyou]

Yes, good post skipintro.

I, for one, know the value of surrounding myself with experts in each field. :) Why expand and "delute your brand" of your own company when you can outsource those things that you know you are weak on? Programming? Not me. Web design? Not me. Copywriting? Not me. SEO? Me.

[Copywriter]

And it's not just SEOs that do the outsourcing, either. As a copywriter, I know how the copy affects SEO but I make no claims whatsoever about "being" and SEO. When I get a client that needs an SEO I'm the first one to make a referral. That's not my gig.

I write and that's all I do.

[ihelpyou]

Yes, you are being "Branding Specific".

I read a great book on branding by "Ries". I think that was the last name. While browsing in a Barnes and Noble I spotted it although I'm sure amazon has it as well.

It discussed how the internet had many firms 'expanding' their services, and it stated reasons why this was not a good idea. Branding was at the top of the list. Very interesting read.

[Copywriter]

Yeah, I've never read that particular book (I don't think), but I do know there is a huge problem with companies online trying to be all things to all people.

Actually, this goes back to customer demand and convenience. Customers don't want to have to search for each, individual piece to the puzzle (an SEO, a copywriter, a designer, a host, etc.). They would rather have it all in one place.

The "smart" companies are outsourcing the things they don't do well to those who DO do them well. The "not-so-smart" companies are trying to do them all themselves and are failing.

I fully understand customers who want it all and want it all in one place. That's why I have no qualms with working as a sub.

[ihelpyou]

Oh yes. But I do the same thing as a company who actually hires more people. The difference being that my brand is not being deluted by many service offerings, etc. I would rather be known as a SEO, than as an internet marketeer, or search engine marketing,etc. The net already has too many of those out there. Firms get lost in the shuffle. It's mostly about 'preference'. People know I don't do web design or copywriting and I don't say that I do. I do "provide" those services, but that is distinctly different than "offering" those services. I think every project needs a coordinator of that project. I feel I am the best one for that job. Oh sure, clients could go directly to my copywriter to have their pages re-written, but they would not have the value of my keyphrase research 'first', and then the copy reviewed and approved by myself, along with talking over the new copy with the client before it goes live on the site.

I guess it's a matter of preference. I feel if I were to expand and actually hire on more people to do things, the 'personalization' effect would not be there as much. Now, the buck stops here and clients know they don't need to talk to anyone else but me. They also know I don't do the other stuff but are watching over it.

I also know that there "are" firms who can and "do" do it all, and are very good at it. But they are clearly in the very minority in this industry. They can kid themselves, but we see many touting 'submission to 89 hundred million search engines' once a month, etc. :D Oh, I know there are those few who are very good at being 'all things'. Very few though. :)

[NativeSpeech]

No, I'm not an SEO specialist, as I said. I was merely pointing out to the folks here who write and edit their own copy that they need a specialist if they want their copy to work well for people, too.
Everybody thinks they can write their own English, so they wonder why they should hire a writing professional and spend money unnecessarily. But a professionally written and/or edited document/site/book/article/what-have-you always stands head and shoulders above. Even readers who have no clue what a split infinitive is will recognize when writing is smooth and clear and easy to read.
In your site designs, just don't forget that websites are not only meant for search engines to index; if people don't use them, they have no value at all. ;)

Sorry, guys, but I've been browsing this forum for maybe six months, and this was the first time I've felt the need to stick in my two cents worth. I didn't intend to annoy anyone, just give some (perhaps unneeded) advice. I hate to see people waste their effort.

[Copywriter]

You're not bothering or annoying anyone. That's what this forum is about... opinions and learning from one another.

Feel free to post any time.

[ihelpyou]

Hi John, You did great! :thumb:

[PeterStone]

Originally posted by ihelpyou
Hi John, You did great! :thumb:


I couldn't agree more.


Doug, is the book: "The 22 Immutable Laws of Branding"? It is available from Amazon.com.


Peter Stone

[ihelpyou]

You got it Peter? From Ries? That's the one.

[ihelpyou]

The amazon link:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0887309372/002-6175375-8277624?v=glance

And no, it is not an affiliate link. :)

[PeterStone]

No, Doug. I'm curious, what did you like about it?

If you'll type his name into the search window at Amazon, you'll see a number of his titles. I think "Positioning..." written with Jack Trout, was his first big hit.

Robert Middleton's services marketing plan compliments their work (actionplan.com). I've mentioned him before as a suggestion to the SEO's struggling to get clients. You can download Robert's workbook free. I bought his book and think it's worthwhile. It gives concrete info on not only what to do, but details on how to do it.

Between the free material on his site, that of howieconnect.com and perrymarshall.com, some of those who are having a tough time of making a go could get some ideas on how to put together a plan that delivers - clients.


Peter Stone

[ihelpyou]

No, 3 of them wrote that book, and they all have last names of "Ries". Trout was not in on this book.

Not any particular one thing. I just had never read a book on branding before and was referred to this one some time back. It's just a good book and makes you think about a lot of things.... online and offline.

FYI, the majority of firms 'online' don't get it according to this book. LOL

[amica_webmaster]

Originally posted by PeterStone
Robert Middleton's services marketing plan compliments their work (actionplan.com). I've mentioned him before as a suggestion to the SEO's struggling to get clients. You can download Robert's workbook free. I bought his book and think it's worthwhile. It gives concrete info on not only what to do, but details on how to do it.

I just downloaded the workbook and the sample chapter - this is good stuff, very constructive and clearly written material. I'm thinking I may fork over the price for the rest of the book.

Meta

[PeterStone]

Originally posted by ihelpyou
No, 3 of them wrote that book, and they all have last names of "Ries". Trout was not in on this book.

Not any particular one thing. I just had never read a book on branding before and was referred to this one some time back. It's just a good book and makes you think about a lot of things.... online and offline.

FYI, the majority of firms 'online' don't get it according to this book. LOL

I should have been clearer. It's the one on "Positioning..."" (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0071373586/qid=1059513843/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/002-2448016-5334425 ) that he wrote with Trout.

Well, I have to agree with that last statement. Especially the "LOL".


Peter Stone

[PeterStone]

Originally posted by amica_webmaster
I just downloaded the workbook and the sample chapter - this is good stuff, very constructive and clearly written material. I'm thinking I may fork over the price for the rest of the book.

Meta


I'm glad you like what you see.

The workbook is the what and the manual is the how - it gives the details on filling in the blanks in the workbook. See how far you can get and if it makes even more sense before you part with the dough. (I don't want you to yell at me if it's not right for you).



Peter Stone

[amica_webmaster]

Originally posted by PeterStone
See how far you can get and if it makes even more sense before you part with the dough. (I don't want you to yell at me if it's not right for you).

Heavens, I would never yell at anyone for such a thing. My actions are my responsibility.

I passed the information along to a friend with an independent consulting practice and not nearly enough clients. The sample chapter seemed to me to be aimed at him, and I think it would help him to give some thought to what is said there. Although I work in a large organization, what I've read so far is largely relevant to me, too.

Now as I recall, the original topic here was whether SEOs should hire copywriters. The copy in Middletons's book, at least the one chapter that I have read, is very good. It sells without sounding like an ad for Omaha steaks, and it is really clear. It makes me wish I could write that well. If anyone is wondering what a good copywriter can do that the rest of us can't, take a look at that sample chapter.

Meta