what should i expect from my SEO

[sonick59]

Hi all...

Recently the company I work for started work on our website with a SEO company. I realize it probably varies from company to company, but what should I expect from them?

Here's my dilema...

When we were trying to make our decision on whether or not this was something worthwhile, I did my homework, read up on what SEO was and got quite a bit of information on some basic things I could do to increase our rankings. I subscribed to Wordtracker to get lists of potential keywords. Somewhere along the way it was decided that this was way too much work for just one person to do so we started looking at outside SEOs. We hired a firm and they got to work. They pulled up reports showing us that we weren't ranking well (which we already had a feeling about) and gave us a list of keywords to go through. And that was it. From there I was pretty much on my own. I had to pick the keywords, work them into our site and rewrite all of the meta info myself. Not much help from our SEO guys doing any of that. Should I have expected them to take a more active role in the implementation? I feel that for the money we spent on their services, we should have gotten more than information we already had.

-k

[ihelpyou]

Welcome to the forums sonic59! :hi:

It's hard to say. EVERY SEO is different.

What did they say they would do before you started with them? If they did what they say they were going to do, then you got what you paid for.

How much money was involved?

[Webmaster T]

I wrote an article on this for SeoPros.


Client Expectations of Search engine Optimization
Consultants and Marketers (http://www.seopros.org/articles/expectations.htm#best-practices)

You may find some of the info in the FAQs useful as well.

[Webmaster T]

Sorry, the link above would apply to a regular service. I didn't understand what was contracted. My mistake!

[scottiecl]

Nice article, T!

[Webmaster T]

Originally posted by scottiecl
Nice article, T! Thanks Scottie
Did you read any of the other FAQs?

[Advisor]

Hi Sonick,

It sounds like all you got was keyword research. Is this all you paid for?

Keyword research is of course important, but as you've seen, there's a whole lot more than that.

If you only paid them a hundred bucks, or a few hundred bucks, then getting just keyword research is reasonable (assuming you signed a contract that explained this). If you paid much more than that, you probably should have received something more.

But again, everything should have been spelled out for you in advance just like when you hire any service. I'd be interested in knowing how much you paid, and what was presented to you in regards to what they said they would do for you.

Jill

[Webmaster T]

Originally posted by Advisor
But again, everything should have been spelled out for you in advance just like when you hire any service. I'd be interested in knowing how much you paid, and what was presented to you in regards to what they said they would do for you.I'd be interested in knowing the history of the sale as well. Was there an RFP? Contract? Did you understand what you paid for?

[scottiecl]

Originally posted by Webmaster T
Thanks Scottie
Did you read any of the other FAQs? I read some previously and bookmarked the site today so I can go back and read the FAQ's. Just too much going on today!

[sonick59]

Originally posted by Advisor

I'd be interested in knowing how much you paid, and what was presented to you in regards to what they said they would do for you.

Jill

The project was broken down into four phases. The first phase they spidered our site and created some reports (site ranking, link popularity, etc...) In phase two they gave us a list of keywords, suggestions for code changes and a link building plan (which was just another proposal). They state that they will provide code examples for reference. In phase 3 they state that they will work with us to implement approved recommendations. Then they will help us submit to search engines (it was clear that we were responsible for this). The last part is the monitoring, which has been ongoing even though we haven't achieved everything from the first three phases. This includes charts on SE ranking, visitors. They are then supposed to suggest changes.

We were given the report for phase two with the suggested changes for code and what to be aware of when implementing keywords and descriptions but I was expecting some more tangible help. From that point on it's been one proposal after another for additional projects they can do; all as vague in language as to whose really going to do the work as this one. And then to top it off, I went through our site, reworked copy using the keywords that I picked from their list, changed meta tags for all our pages and then was told from them that I had to go back and do it because I didn't do it right! I guess I'm supposed to have different sets of keywords and descriptions for every single page, which I didn't do. I made groups of similar pages and created descriptions and keyword sets for those.

This was around $10,000 for the analysis and reports and about $1500 a month for the monitoring.

-k
(sorry this is so long!)

[ihelpyou]

WOWSIE!!!!

Boy did you get hosed.

Give me that damn 10 grand you threw away. :)

This is a classic example of the scams out there. This is why it's so very important to do your research first before hiring anyone.

If you are saying you have no idea who is suppose to do what and when and how, what did they actually do then?

[ihelpyou]

Further;

Now if they gave you these reports and spelled out in detail how 'you' are suppose to implement them, then I can see all of this. This is only if they detailed this report in a step by step kind of thing.

Did they do that and let you know ahead of time that you were responsible to implement all of it?

Also, how long has it been since all code changes took place and since the link pop program started?

I think we need more information. My post above was too early. If you are only talking a few months, that ain't long enough.

[scottiecl]

Originally posted by sonick59
We were given the report for phase two with the suggested changes for code and what to be aware of when implementing keywords and descriptions but I was expecting some more tangible help. It sounds like they did what they said they were going to do... expecting more help is nice, but they didn't say they were going to do anything but provide reports and monitoring.

It is SO important to make sure every expectation is clearly spelled out in detail and in writing before you hand over a check. I've seen too many instances where we "thought" the client wanted something or they "thought" we would just include such-and-such. These situations almost always end up with both parties feeling injured.

I have waded in to a dozen "unsavable" client relationships looking for a way to peacably part ways only to find that once everything is discussed and expectations are set realistically, that everyone is happy. Those clients became some of our best supporters.

Communication, Communication, Communication. Sonick59- have you sat the representatives from this company down and told them that you were unhappy and why? If they want to keep you as a client (with $1500 a month for "monitoring", I sure would!) they will want to clear things up.

[sonick59]

They did provide a report on the kinds of things we could do to our site but no step by step instructions like "on this page use x,y,z keyphrases, add in this content and put a link for this". It was more general, like a white paper you would download. The only specific examples dealt with the code of the site, which they just pointed out what ours was and said to change it to "something like this".

The code changes that they recommended were not implemented because our programmers felt that they interefered to greatly with the "user experience" of the site. Also our site is php based and some of the code they wanted to get rid of and substitute with an include was impossible because it is generated dynamically. They did not offer any other solutions that might work with our site. ALT tags for the images, body text and meta tags were all changed using the keywords that I picked from their lists. All this was done at the end of Jan. We immediately saw an increase in our traffic for a certain set of keywords but that has since leveled off. Inexplicably our sales have decreased as our site traffic increases...but that's a whole 'nother story.

-k

[scottiecl]

Originally posted by sonick59
$1500 a month for the monitoring. Just curious ... what is included for that $1500 a month?

[sonick59]

Originally posted by scottiecl
Just curious ... what is included for that $1500 a month?

This includes site ranking report, number of visitors(which we get from webtrends anyway), and number of referrals (webtrends again). They are also supposed to report on under performing pages and suggested changes to those but I don't think we've ever gone through and done that. Occasionally they'll make suggestions for new pages, but not for existing pages.

-k

[scottiecl]

I got it- so in theory there is reporting and analysis, but you aren't really getting any analysis.

Defintely push them to fulfill their end of the contract. They should want to keep your business!

[Jodi]

Wow. I just gotta say, that's a LOT of money for a whole lot of very little. :-/ Is that pricing really appropriate? Seems WAY out of proportion to me. Especially when you can get web statistics done for your website at about $10 / month from whoever is hosting your website (and it's frequently included in your monthly web hosting charge).

I've seen the sorts of stats Webtrends produces - and they're certainly not bad. I also understand that the program costs a bit for the company using it to purchase and maintain a license for, but $1500 per month??

Ah well. This is just one SEO's opinion, I suppose. There are bound to be many others out there. But having done this since 1995, it still floors me when people pay such huge sums of money and get so little in return.

Good luck, sonick59!

All the best,

--Jodi

[Advisor]

I'd want to hear the SEO company's side of the story. There could certainly be a lot more to it than we know. So, I'm reserving judgement!

Jill

[Jodi]

Yup. Probably prudent, Jill. :)

I'm just going on the information I have, obviously - which is from sonick59. I'd be curious to hear the SEO company's perspective too.

--Jodi

[Advisor]

As SEOs we all know that not every client understands or is willing to do what we suggest, regardless of how clearly we spell it out for them.

Not saying that this happened in this case, but if there were fundamental misunderstandings from the start, it's easy to see how this scenario could happen.

That said, I might recommend stopping the monthly payments for now (unless you have a long-term signed contract). I would also recommend that you have a long email or phone conversation with the company. Go over what they gave you, and what they promised you, and see if it does or does not match.

If it does match, then you're probably out of luck. If it doesn't match, hold the company accountable until they provide what they said they would provide.

Jill

[sonick59]

Thanks for all your help/comments. I guess what it just boils down to is that I didn't feel that the work that was done was worth 10 grand and the monitoring that they do is worth $1500. I just wanted to get an idea if I was just expecting too much or what. I'll definately go back and try to work this communication breakdown out.

Thanks!

-k

[MakeMeTop]

>The code changes that they recommended were not implemented because our programmers felt that they interefered to greatly with the "user experience" of the site.

How many times have I heard that! Well, that would put any SEO at a severe disadvantage. It would also inhibit communication. How can any SEO do their job unless this conflict is resolved?

If I were the SEO I would probably cancel the contract myself as unworkable.

[projectphp]

Can I give you a picece of Advise: WHENEVER a developer says this:
Also our site is <INSERT LANGUAGE HERE> based and some of the code they wanted to get rid of and substitute with an include was impossible because it is generated dynamically.
What they REALLY mean is this:

"That is hard. I don't want to do that. [insert yourname here] is non technical, s/he wont know any better. I'll just givbe them some **** and bull about 'User experience' or 'branding' and that'll shut him/her up".

Technical ppl can do INCREDIBLE things. Often, they just do the bare minimum, and sook and squiel when you ask them to change anything. To many, it is a sin to admit weakness, and Developers HATE having their ability questioned, which is often the effect that hiring an external SEO has.

As an example, JavaScript, CSS and other stuff CAN be placed in external, dynnamic file e.g.

<?php
echo '<script anguage="JavaScript" src="JavaScript.php?pageid=' . $thisScript . '">';

There are hundred's of ways to do this. It WILL take work, but that is the price of these sorts of things.

Besides, this is PRECISELY WHY scripting languages like PHP were invented.

Sounds to me like 50% of the problem is on your side, 30% on the SEO's side, and 20% is just plain miscommunication.

Just my 2.2 cents worth.

[Webmaster T]

Originally posted by Advisor
If it does match, then you're probably out of luck. If it doesn't match, hold the company accountable until they provide what they said they would provide.All the advice was great and right on Jill! I might add that if there are people seeing this that are buying SEO services use both an RFP and contract. Do not use a contract from the SEO! Get a lawyer, and have your lawyer write the contract. Make sure that all details of what you "expect" from each service and what constitutes fulfilling the SEOs obligation. If they will not agree to your contract then........... you probably want to look elsewhere.

An RFP IMO, would have spelled out all your expectations ahead of time. This sounds like you had "expectations" that they didn't realize you had and there was no communication on either side to straighten it out.

[Advisor]

Do not use a contract from the SEO! Get a lawyer, and have your lawyer write the contract. I refuse to use any contract but my own. It would cost me too much to have a lawyer figure out their contract. I am always open to minor modifications to my contract, but that's it. They can take it or leave it.

Jill

[scottiecl]

As long as the client requests clarification on anything they don't understand, I don't see why they wouldn't accept the SEO's contract.

It would be a lot cheaper to have a lawyer look over the contract presented than to get a lawyer (who doesn't understand SEO) to try and draft one from scratch.

[PeterStone]

Originally posted by sonick59
They did provide a report on the kinds of things we could do to our site but no step by step instructions like "on this page use x,y,z keyphrases, add in this content and put a link for this". It was more general, like a white paper you would download. The only specific examples dealt with the code of the site, which they just pointed out what ours was and said to change it to "something like this".

The code changes that they recommended were not implemented because our programmers felt that they interefered to greatly with the "user experience" of the site. Also our site is php based and some of the code they wanted to get rid of and substitute with an include was impossible because it is generated dynamically. They did not offer any other solutions that might work with our site. ALT tags for the images, body text and meta tags were all changed using the keywords that I picked from their lists. All this was done at the end of Jan. We immediately saw an increase in our traffic for a certain set of keywords but that has since leveled off. Inexplicably our sales have decreased as our site traffic increases...but that's a whole 'nother story.

-k

It sounds as though everyone is in charge of everything.

If this is your project, you need to get this done. He said, she said won't cut it.

Have the programmer document what they are not capable of accomplishing on paper. Have them write down what specific line of code will interfere with which user experience and in what way it will interfere. Confirm that using a consultant.

Or are you in that lovely (sarcasm) spot of having all the responsibility and no authority? If that's the case, move this up the ladder to your boss.

Whatever is going on, having the programmer write their "feelings" on paper will bump the project into motion.

Off hand and without knowing all the details, this appears to be a problem of management with no accountability. If you don't implement the changes, how can you hold the SEO's accountable?

You can't. Not casually and not contractually. (No, I'm not a lawyer).

Blaming them won't fix a thing. Least of all your web site.

How can you be held responsible since you're not a technical person?

I would strongly suggest you get off yours, climb out of your comfort zone and do your job. The programmer needs to get off their ass and do their job by coming up with a work around. Either they can or they can't. If they can't, I know someone who can, but wouldn't want to throw them into that situation. It sounds like a cluster ____.

So now you have a fix that you can implement today.


Peter

[ihelpyou]

Off hand and without knowing all the details, this appears to be a problem of management with no accountability. If you don't implement the changes, how can you hold the SEO's accountable?
EXACTLY, and on the money!!

It makes my sides hurt whenever I hear that from a developer or designer. Why the heck hire a SEO if a site ain't willing to make the damn changes?? LOL

If this SEO was looking for advice or product or service about which "you" are an expert at, would he take your advice or toss it aside?

Clients hire us because either they don't have the time to screw with it, OR they don't wish to learn how, OR they don't know how and want someone to do it for them. If you hire a SEO, you better be sure you follow the advice to a tee. If not, you lost out, including your money.

[Advisor]

Peter, you are correct if we assume that the code changes the SEO wants/needs to make are truly necessary. However, they may or may not be.

I hear people spouting off all sorts of code changes that they think are necessary, in forums, etc., but in reality, they're not necessary. They are often long-perpetuated myths.

It may very well be that they don't need to make the changes, but then again they may.

This is why one has to hire an SEO company that they are confident knows exactly what they're talking about. If they trust that this is true, then they need to do exactly what the SEO company says. At this point, it's not a good idea to second guess the SEO company. At the money you're paying them, they sure as heck better know what they're talking about. And they should also know how much impact implementing those particular changes will have.

I often suggest lots of things to my clients. Some they can do, some they can't. They will always ask me how much impact it will have if they don't do such and such. If it's something they definitely MUST do, I tell them that. If it's something that may help, but they might be able to get away with not doing, I'll tell them that. Often you can go back and make those changes later if results are not what you expected or desired.

Jill

[Webmaster T]

Originally posted by Advisor
I refuse to use any contract but my own. It would cost me too much to have a lawyer figure out their contract. I am always open to minor modifications to my contract, but that's it. They can take it or leave it.Jill, in your case, yes, I haven't seen it but I'm sure it is fair and the client would be fine just taking yours to a lawyer. But there are plenty of good reasons for someone buying the services to have their lawyer prepare it. Perhaps what I should have said to make it more clear is there should be a lawyer involved to protect them and there should be a contract. Not all SEOs are looking out for the client in fact a bad ones contract would be meant to protect them and only them.

[Advisor]

Absolutely, Terry! Nobody should ever sign a contract without having an attorney read it first. You'd be amazed at what some companies try to get away with in their contracts.

Here's a tip...never sign anything that says you will indemnify the other party. That's the one thing I know to X out of any contract a client tries to give me. (I think you can sign where you'll indeminify each other, but you'd probably want to check on that with an attorney.)

Jill

[PeterStone]

Jill- I'm saying that the relationships need more paper since the "who's on first" style of communication is at play.

Peter wrote- "Have them write down what specific line of code will interfere with which user experience and in what way it will interfere. Confirm that using a consultant". (That was in reference to the programmers).

The SEO's proposed changes are on paper, already. The changes may be bad or unnecessary. They may indeed interfere with the user's experience. The programmers opinion may be right on the money.

In this particular instance, the only entity clearly communicating is the SEO. What they have communicated on paper is subject to scrutiny.

The only loose end at play is pivotal to the successful conclusion of the project. That loose end is the programmer's verbal assertion that the SEO's recomendations will screw things up.

Put that in writing and have a neutral party take a look and offer a solution. At least, if this were done, an incompetant SEO would be documented. To employ any remedy at all requires that information.

Life doesn't have to be difficult and dramatic. (A general statement).


Peter

[Advisor]

Peter,

Yep, agreed!

Jill

[excell]

TermTraker? me thinks there is a typo in a few articles :)